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Swashbucklers too overpowered

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
I have been facing some serious difficulties in this test realm as a buccaneer doing PvP. First of all, we now cannot shield stack which puts a huge huge hole in our defense, and on top of that we can't debuff stack either, which is also a key part of our strategy. This has come for me to say that buccaneer is extremely weak whereas swashbuckler has turned into a no brainer class, all they have to do is go into black fog, (which is still 2x for 5 round when it should be 1.5x for 5 rounds) then apply a curse onto you and your companions, and then all 4 people on the opposing side will just take down your captain, and then they can just easily destroy your companions. Some people may say that you can counter this by going into hidden yourself but if you do this then what the swashbuckler is going to do is kill off your companions, then its 1 vs 4, how is this fair? Not to mention this also destroys privateers because they also, again, shield stack so that they can defend themselves against swashbucklers, but now, there is absolutely no way of defense against this extremely overpowered class

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Without a doubt Black Fog is completely overpowered. I have been saying this for months, and now Ranked PvP will prove my claims. If it goes live as it, it will be dominated by Swashbucklers with the few off classes here and there.

Now that you can't stack shields, it makes it even worse. A single fortress is not enough to save you from 4 units under Black Fog focusing down your Pirate. It is literally undefended-able unless I Walk in Darkness after their fog, and as you say, if we do that we still lose 2-3 of our companions to fog.

So either you let your pirate character die, or you let most of your companions die and the battle becomes a 2v4 or 1v4. You have to completely mess up to not win a duel as a Swashbuckler with fog.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9309
No, we're not. Gosh, you make it sound so easy - just fog, buff and charge and behold! Another win for the "OP" buckler! If it were that easy I would be in the top ranks by now.
However, it's not. Other classes have spent time on strategies to frustrate and defeat the so-called OP buckler. Maybe you should ask them how it's done.

Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
135
Masonpeev on Jul 18, 2015 wrote:
I have been facing some serious difficulties in this test realm as a buccaneer doing PvP. First of all, we now cannot shield stack which puts a huge huge hole in our defense, and on top of that we can't debuff stack either, which is also a key part of our strategy. This has come for me to say that buccaneer is extremely weak whereas swashbuckler has turned into a no brainer class, all they have to do is go into black fog, (which is still 2x for 5 round when it should be 1.5x for 5 rounds) then apply a curse onto you and your companions, and then all 4 people on the opposing side will just take down your captain, and then they can just easily destroy your companions. Some people may say that you can counter this by going into hidden yourself but if you do this then what the swashbuckler is going to do is kill off your companions, then its 1 vs 4, how is this fair? Not to mention this also destroys privateers because they also, again, shield stack so that they can defend themselves against swashbucklers, but now, there is absolutely no way of defense against this extremely overpowered class
Make the arenas like the spar chamber and make fog 3 turns there

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Masonpeev on Jul 18, 2015 wrote:
I have been facing some serious difficulties in this test realm as a buccaneer doing PvP. First of all, we now cannot shield stack which puts a huge huge hole in our defense, and on top of that we can't debuff stack either, which is also a key part of our strategy. This has come for me to say that buccaneer is extremely weak whereas swashbuckler has turned into a no brainer class, all they have to do is go into black fog, (which is still 2x for 5 round when it should be 1.5x for 5 rounds) then apply a curse onto you and your companions, and then all 4 people on the opposing side will just take down your captain, and then they can just easily destroy your companions. Some people may say that you can counter this by going into hidden yourself but if you do this then what the swashbuckler is going to do is kill off your companions, then its 1 vs 4, how is this fair? Not to mention this also destroys privateers because they also, again, shield stack so that they can defend themselves against swashbucklers, but now, there is absolutely no way of defense against this extremely overpowered class
Okay. What if Black Fog doesn't come up? Even though I keep it near the top of my list, it doesn't always come up. In fact, it often doesn't come up for several rounds. So if we decide to diminish the Swashbucklers one truly good power...what do they have left? They have other hiddens but then so could you. My Buck has 2 hiddens. My Witch has 2. My Privy has 2 and my Musket has 1. The solution isn't to diminish the Bucklers. If anything the solution would be to restore the Bucks and Privys. If you want to take Black Fog away or water it down, Bucklers would need something in return.

Bosun
Feb 25, 2012
329
I've recently had a paradigm shift on my opinion of the issue. My main is a Buckler, so please, nobody tell me i am biased.

The issue is simply a single Power: Fog. I've recommended it on another thread, i'll recommend it here: reducing the damage buff to 1.5x damage and reducing the duration to three rounds. I know, I know, thats a drastic nerf, but i think it is fitting. 3 rounds will prevent long waits for fog to end, and 1.5x damage will still be a massive hit without being a game ending hit. I think this will improve the PvE challenge for Bucklers as well as the PvP chances of every other class. lets face it, when enough people say there is a problem there is probably a problem.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
anecorbie on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
No, we're not. Gosh, you make it sound so easy - just fog, buff and charge and behold! Another win for the "OP" buckler! If it were that easy I would be in the top ranks by now.
However, it's not. Other classes have spent time on strategies to frustrate and defeat the so-called OP buckler. Maybe you should ask them how it's done.
To be fair, it is that easy.

I have yet to lose a duel on my Swashbuckler against a non-Swashbuckler doing these steps:

Fog turn 1 or 2
Move in closer with my Nausica, Fan and Yagi
If player doesn't shield or hide, focus him and kill him with hidden Nausica critical and hidden Fan critical
If player does shield or hide, then instead pick two of their companions and focus down those two instead

After those simple steps during the 5 turn duration of Black Fog, you should be up 4v2 or 4v3 with their captain dead.

Bring companions that have critical attacks (Fan, Kobe, Subodai, Nausica, Sarah, etc) and you will almost always take down 2 companions with you with your black fog use. You will climb the ranks very quickly unless you run into better Swashbucklers.

What can the opponent do? You can maybe fortress yourself and another companion, but the other 2 will be dead. You can maybe Mojo Storm me, but you leave yourself vulnerable with no protection. Probably the only class that can stop the fog engage is a Musketeer with well placed knockback bombs, and even then it won't be a guaranteed counter. Summons don't matter since they can't target me or my companions while hidden. I can curse poison you so you can't heal, so even if my fog attacks don't kill you, the next turn I will finish the job since you can't heal.

Honestly, I understand a few of you guys are really against nerfing Black Fog or giving us a consistent counter to hidden, but you have to wake up and be realistic to what is happening in ranked PvP right now. Try doing 10 duels with a non-Swashbuckler class and I guarantee you that any time you run into a decent Swashbuckler, you will want to pull your hair out because of how hopeless the battle is the moment they use Black Fog.

Captain
Feb 11, 2010
619
Not all swashbucklers are overpowered. I'm a swashbuckler and I haven't won ONE ranked pvp match yet.
You could probably beat me.

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
anecorbie on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
No, we're not. Gosh, you make it sound so easy - just fog, buff and charge and behold! Another win for the "OP" buckler! If it were that easy I would be in the top ranks by now.
However, it's not. Other classes have spent time on strategies to frustrate and defeat the so-called OP buckler. Maybe you should ask them how it's done.
Almost impossible to have consistent results. Almost a year since the Tower update and you think we haven't tried? The facts stay the same that you can't beat Fog at a consistent rate, the truth is the only way was to double fort every other companion and hide with your pirate but the chances of being able to do that is slim you almost always lose at least 2 companions, Purge doesn't remove hidden which makes it a whole lot worse. And the truth is that's all you have to do, run in curse, kill companions to make it a 4v1. It's too OP and even me, Alex, and Midnight Pirate who may I add are the 3 highest ranks in test realm right now? I'm just saying this, not rocket scientest but the people who are at the top should be listened to mostly on subjects we've proven to be OP already on multiple occassions, how something is balanced is when you can create a consistent strategy that performed against the other so called "OP" strategy and beat it on a 50/50 or higher percentage if it doesn't then it isn't consistent, but to be able to still not even hit a strategy like that for an entire year? It's either Black Fog is broken or the developers have a hidden scent epic item hidden in the game they're giggling about in the office.

Gunner's Mate
May 13, 2009
228
I was going against a swash who used black fog, and he used those few turns to buff himself without getting hurt. So annoying. It just made his final hidden attack a lot more powerful than it should be! Why not ban buffs while hidden? I think it's a great idea!

Commodore
May 31, 2009
873
You're all calling for Fog to be nerfed, but I must say if balancing PvP messes up PvE, you're all going to be even more mad. Think up a way to beat it, test it, and end this useless bickering over Swashbucklers being "OP". Face it: each class has its strengths and weaknesses, and a group hide just so happens to be the swash's.

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Alex Hawkins on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
To be fair, it is that easy.

I have yet to lose a duel on my Swashbuckler against a non-Swashbuckler doing these steps:

Fog turn 1 or 2
Move in closer with my Nausica, Fan and Yagi
If player doesn't shield or hide, focus him and kill him with hidden Nausica critical and hidden Fan critical
If player does shield or hide, then instead pick two of their companions and focus down those two instead

After those simple steps during the 5 turn duration of Black Fog, you should be up 4v2 or 4v3 with their captain dead.

Bring companions that have critical attacks (Fan, Kobe, Subodai, Nausica, Sarah, etc) and you will almost always take down 2 companions with you with your black fog use. You will climb the ranks very quickly unless you run into better Swashbucklers.

What can the opponent do? You can maybe fortress yourself and another companion, but the other 2 will be dead. You can maybe Mojo Storm me, but you leave yourself vulnerable with no protection. Probably the only class that can stop the fog engage is a Musketeer with well placed knockback bombs, and even then it won't be a guaranteed counter. Summons don't matter since they can't target me or my companions while hidden. I can curse poison you so you can't heal, so even if my fog attacks don't kill you, the next turn I will finish the job since you can't heal.

Honestly, I understand a few of you guys are really against nerfing Black Fog or giving us a consistent counter to hidden, but you have to wake up and be realistic to what is happening in ranked PvP right now. Try doing 10 duels with a non-Swashbuckler class and I guarantee you that any time you run into a decent Swashbuckler, you will want to pull your hair out because of how hopeless the battle is the moment they use Black Fog.
Well, in my only match so far against a class other than Swashbuckler, I lost to a Witchdoctor. First round...no Black Fog...so all I could do was buff and shield. I put a Fortress on Nausica and used Fan's agility buff and Toro's buff. Because of the 1st round freeze my team was still clustered together and the Witchdoctor hit us all with a super Mojo Storm. Just like that my whole team was down to half health before we could even move. Then the Witchdoctor's Serpent Auger companion hit me with a Mournsong and a Mojo Echo. After the bleeding guess what? I was dead before I could even cross the battle board. So do we need to nerf Mojo Storm now? It's a power that can do 1,000 plus damage on up to 9 enemies. That seems pretty OP to me. After the first Mojo Storm I spread my team out and then got picked off by Mournsongs and some other ranged attacks. What about Musketeers? If they have Sniper Shot and use that along with Chantal's Sniper shot they can also take me out before I can even move. Melee units need to be able to approach the enemy to hit them. If Black Fog is nerfed we would be at a distinct disadvantage because we can't hit the enemy, but they are able to hit us.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
The lack of counter-play I've had several matches where I am unable to do pretty much anything except fort and hope my opponent messes up.That means the only swashes I've beaten were bad ones who messed up really bad and even when my opponent messes up I still lose. As a privateer facing a swashbuckler how is it fair that my chances of winning depend on my opponent misusing their black fog and hope I don't lose too many companions because even if i survive if my damage companions die I literally have it near impossible to win since my my autos wont do much damage and the other swashbuckler could always fort or revive etc.

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
TechnomagePvP on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
Almost impossible to have consistent results. Almost a year since the Tower update and you think we haven't tried? The facts stay the same that you can't beat Fog at a consistent rate, the truth is the only way was to double fort every other companion and hide with your pirate but the chances of being able to do that is slim you almost always lose at least 2 companions, Purge doesn't remove hidden which makes it a whole lot worse. And the truth is that's all you have to do, run in curse, kill companions to make it a 4v1. It's too OP and even me, Alex, and Midnight Pirate who may I add are the 3 highest ranks in test realm right now? I'm just saying this, not rocket scientest but the people who are at the top should be listened to mostly on subjects we've proven to be OP already on multiple occassions, how something is balanced is when you can create a consistent strategy that performed against the other so called "OP" strategy and beat it on a 50/50 or higher percentage if it doesn't then it isn't consistent, but to be able to still not even hit a strategy like that for an entire year? It's either Black Fog is broken or the developers have a hidden scent epic item hidden in the game they're giggling about in the office.
So only the people at the top should be listened to? What about the other 49,999,997 players? Yes you guys compete at a much higher level, but if you ask the average player, Black Fog is not the issue you make it out to be. So the game should be changed because the minority thinks so? There may be future updates that would nullify this advantage you perceive, so what then? Would they go back and restore Fog if another class suddenly has the advantage? Not likely. In the hands of a pro, yes Black Fog can be devastating, but even then there is no guarantee that the hidden units will be able to get to the units they need to. There are lots of game changing powers out there. My whole team being taken down to half health by a super Mojo Storm before I can even move is a good example. A Musketeer and Chantal being able to cause thousands in damage with Sniper shots before my team can shield is another. Bucklers often have to take 2 rounds of ranged attacks before we can reach our targets. Being down to a third health by the time you reach your target is hard to overcome for most. Then there is still the question...what if Fog doesn't come up? I have gone through entire battles without it coming up, or coming up when it's too late. Tell me how a Buckler is supposed to beat a ranged unit when Fog doesn't come up. Either we just charge in, or we wait out the bombs and traps. Either way we have to weather the ranged and AoE attacks as we try to advance. When a Musket hides in the corner with a shielded Ratbeard on the point, surrounded by Knockback bombs and traps...how are we supposed to get in? The double damage from Fog makes up for all the damage we have to take while we advance on our opponents. I have a great deal of respect for those of you who are so dedicated to pvp and have accomplished so much, but the rest of the players...who also happen to be in the majority...should have a say too.

Lieutenant
Oct 12, 2012
149
I have said this before and I will say it again. I think Black fog should just be the double damage, it should not be hidden targets, it could also be flip-flopped to be hidden but not double damaged. I feel that is fair I do have a buckler and it is that easy buff buff buff hit and win.

Captain
Feb 11, 2010
619
They should change it back to the way it was, hidden ending if you attack or get damaged.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9309
CaptainBlackWolfBo... on Jul 21, 2015 wrote:
They should change it back to the way it was, hidden ending if you attack or get damaged.
Removing by damage was the broken hide, that's never coming back as it would adversely affect PVE. Hide ends when a successful attack goes through. That should be your first clue as to how to remove hidden.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Spiral Cowboy on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
Well, in my only match so far against a class other than Swashbuckler, I lost to a Witchdoctor. First round...no Black Fog...so all I could do was buff and shield. I put a Fortress on Nausica and used Fan's agility buff and Toro's buff. Because of the 1st round freeze my team was still clustered together and the Witchdoctor hit us all with a super Mojo Storm. Just like that my whole team was down to half health before we could even move. Then the Witchdoctor's Serpent Auger companion hit me with a Mournsong and a Mojo Echo. After the bleeding guess what? I was dead before I could even cross the battle board. So do we need to nerf Mojo Storm now? It's a power that can do 1,000 plus damage on up to 9 enemies. That seems pretty OP to me. After the first Mojo Storm I spread my team out and then got picked off by Mournsongs and some other ranged attacks. What about Musketeers? If they have Sniper Shot and use that along with Chantal's Sniper shot they can also take me out before I can even move. Melee units need to be able to approach the enemy to hit them. If Black Fog is nerfed we would be at a distinct disadvantage because we can't hit the enemy, but they are able to hit us.
Honestly, not sure what else I can say to convince you otherwise. I have stated most of my arguments and every day more people are coming to the boards complaining about the same thing, Black Fog is overpowered. Take a look at the test section and it is not just me anymore saying this, new people are too.

Yes, you had a bad duel there, but as you said yourself it all started with a critical (a super at that!) that allowed your opponent such a big edge. That doesn't happen every duel. You can shield that first turn you couldn't fog, you spread your companions out the next turn so the Witch can't aoe you, or if you simply get fog the Witchdoctor has no choice but to start shielding himself or risk getting one shot by your companions.

Losing one duel to one strategy doesn't make it OP. Unless your Witch friend magically had super critical mojo storms ready every game, that won't work for him consistently.

With Black Fog, is not just a single duel that was loss. Countless players have felt the hopelessness of facing a Swashbuckler with fog. It is both the perfect defensive and offensive tool all in one. You can shield, you can spread out, you can hide, yet you will still lose multiple units when the Swashbuckler decides to unleash his power.

Another Swashbuckler, like yourself, can easily avoid this with their own Black Fog. But what about the Privateers? Or the Buccaneers? Or the Witchdoctors? Even Musketeers, you can place your bombs but they are very easy to walk around since you only get one knockback bombs. Is every other class just supposed to sit there and take a beating when ranked comes out? Because that is what it feels like when an opponent Swashbuckler uses Black Fog.

My Swashbuckler is currently ranked at Gladiator in the test realm and undefeated. I rarely even lose a companion in my matches against non-Swashbucklers. He would be higher if I wasn't ranking all my other classes too. It is too easy to win with the class.

Lieutenant
Oct 12, 2012
149
MistyDragon13 on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
You're all calling for Fog to be nerfed, but I must say if balancing PvP messes up PvE, you're all going to be even more mad. Think up a way to beat it, test it, and end this useless bickering over Swashbucklers being "OP". Face it: each class has its strengths and weaknesses, and a group hide just so happens to be the swash's.
The thing that really bothers me with fog is that it made Swash come from the bottom right to the top because of one power. Why should one power define a class, it should be multiple. People say there are ways to counter it but really there isn't. AOE's barely do anything, if a musket shoots the buckler it usually does 600 damage. I put a shield on my companions since i can't stack (I never could anyways.) oh fifty% damage off sounds like you have a chance. Nope he will send two units to attack you and its gg. Also if you put the bubble on it doesn't do anything. It gets popped ignoring its Absorb ____ damage and it kills you. I do have a buckler and honestly buckler barely has any weakness's. Low health, not a problem you have high dodge and accuracy to hit riposte and first strike. Honestly it is really annoying going up against one strategy. Look above at my solution. I think that would be fair.

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
anecorbie on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
No, we're not. Gosh, you make it sound so easy - just fog, buff and charge and behold! Another win for the "OP" buckler! If it were that easy I would be in the top ranks by now.
However, it's not. Other classes have spent time on strategies to frustrate and defeat the so-called OP buckler. Maybe you should ask them how it's done.
Well its not an "automatic win" but its very close to that vs buck/privy if you have the right gear

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
Spiral Cowboy on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
Okay. What if Black Fog doesn't come up? Even though I keep it near the top of my list, it doesn't always come up. In fact, it often doesn't come up for several rounds. So if we decide to diminish the Swashbucklers one truly good power...what do they have left? They have other hiddens but then so could you. My Buck has 2 hiddens. My Witch has 2. My Privy has 2 and my Musket has 1. The solution isn't to diminish the Bucklers. If anything the solution would be to restore the Bucks and Privys. If you want to take Black Fog away or water it down, Bucklers would need something in return.
It always does come up 1st or 2d round and if not fog, then some other hidden for sure

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
Blixet on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
I've recently had a paradigm shift on my opinion of the issue. My main is a Buckler, so please, nobody tell me i am biased.

The issue is simply a single Power: Fog. I've recommended it on another thread, i'll recommend it here: reducing the damage buff to 1.5x damage and reducing the duration to three rounds. I know, I know, thats a drastic nerf, but i think it is fitting. 3 rounds will prevent long waits for fog to end, and 1.5x damage will still be a massive hit without being a game ending hit. I think this will improve the PvE challenge for Bucklers as well as the PvP chances of every other class. lets face it, when enough people say there is a problem there is probably a problem.
*claps* we need fog to be reduced, fog is in a way like a "buff" and with the other buffs as they get stronger there is a set back, for example, a shorter amount of time that the buff lasts, but fog is like combining lets say 100% strength from whales might with the duration of krakens coils for 10 rounds

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
EMC99 on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
I was going against a swash who used black fog, and he used those few turns to buff himself without getting hurt. So annoying. It just made his final hidden attack a lot more powerful than it should be! Why not ban buffs while hidden? I think it's a great idea!
My point exactly!

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
Spiral Cowboy on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
Well, in my only match so far against a class other than Swashbuckler, I lost to a Witchdoctor. First round...no Black Fog...so all I could do was buff and shield. I put a Fortress on Nausica and used Fan's agility buff and Toro's buff. Because of the 1st round freeze my team was still clustered together and the Witchdoctor hit us all with a super Mojo Storm. Just like that my whole team was down to half health before we could even move. Then the Witchdoctor's Serpent Auger companion hit me with a Mournsong and a Mojo Echo. After the bleeding guess what? I was dead before I could even cross the battle board. So do we need to nerf Mojo Storm now? It's a power that can do 1,000 plus damage on up to 9 enemies. That seems pretty OP to me. After the first Mojo Storm I spread my team out and then got picked off by Mournsongs and some other ranged attacks. What about Musketeers? If they have Sniper Shot and use that along with Chantal's Sniper shot they can also take me out before I can even move. Melee units need to be able to approach the enemy to hit them. If Black Fog is nerfed we would be at a distinct disadvantage because we can't hit the enemy, but they are able to hit us.
Yes thats true, Mojo storm is very good and WD is one of the only classes that can destroy swashbucklers, but fog definitely still needs to be nerfed first

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
MistyDragon13 on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
You're all calling for Fog to be nerfed, but I must say if balancing PvP messes up PvE, you're all going to be even more mad. Think up a way to beat it, test it, and end this useless bickering over Swashbucklers being "OP". Face it: each class has its strengths and weaknesses, and a group hide just so happens to be the swash's.
What can buccaneer do now? shield stack? no, stack accuracy debuffs? no, and privateer can't shield stack either, this update destroyed the defensive classes and as for the pve issue, we have doubloons which are extremely helpful in pve and one nerf wont do much anyway