Speculations on the Armada

AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
darkdoombro345 on Aug 21, 2014 wrote:
I'm gonna quit saying muppets not puppets- my sense of humor is too evolved for this establishment. Good day!
Sorry if I offended you. If you could let us know you're joking with a , it would help. Some hypotheses presented here were serious!

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
Anne Radcliffe on Aug 20, 2014 wrote:
Greetings, Monsieur Bradley and friends... yes the idea that 'Desdemona' may be the Lady Elite's name has come up before, and certainly is a possibility. After all, in the story of Othello, Desdemona loves the Venetian general Othello, rejecting as a husband the nobleman her father would prefer her to marry. And since Kane is a Valencian general (chief Admiral, really), and there is a Lady in his court, and the court is known to be devoted to Kane, this does provide some circumstancial evidence for the Lady Elite to be Desdemona.

Only, I don't think so. And for that, I don't have even any circumstancial evidence, just a gut feeling (which of course could be entirely wrong ). First, if the Lady Elite were to love someone, even if it is the logical choice of Kane, it would soften her personality, and create a sense of sympathy. And I must confess, I really hope that isn't the case, partly because it follows a common old female villain stereotype and, ugh, I've had to deal with enough stereotyping in my real life to hope that new literature doesn't follow those patterns necessarily. Also, I don't want to feel sympathy for her. I want her to be formidable and scary!

Second, although we have seen that the Elites are capable of hate (a whole lot of it), from Blind Mew's hints that he has dropped it seems that they are likely incapable of love.

Third, there is -for me- the character of Desdemona herself. In Shakespeare's play, Desdemona is a pure-hearted innocent, a woman of courage who defies her powerful father to marry the man she loves. And then, she pays for her bravery and devotion by being murdered by the one she loves best. Not a satisfying end for her, from my point of view, even if she gets to sing a really good song first (The Willow Song). But here we are, in the Spiral, where all sorts of personages, historical and fictional, are re-invented. Perhaps instead of being the hapless daughter of a (Venetian) senator, Desdemona is a senator herself. Perhaps, like her literary counterpart, she is torn between the choice of two men, one she is expected to marry and one whom she loves. Perhaps the man she loves is disgraced because of the Armada, and we must set that right... (eh, just wild imagination at work...)
In J.K. Rowlings' Harry Potter series, the character of Bellatrix Lestrange is both formidable and scary, she is also supremely devoted to Voldemort; indeed bordering on adoration. But can this be described as love?
Could the Dame be in this mould?

Gunner's Mate
Feb 22, 2011
271
anecorbie on Aug 21, 2014 wrote:
Sorry if I offended you. If you could let us know you're joking with a , it would help. Some hypotheses presented here were serious!
Hahaha, ok, but still... with a name like Muppets not Puppets? It was just a somewhat clever play on words. I mean, not really incredibly clever, but...

Commodore
Sep 20, 2009
814
anecorbie on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
In J.K. Rowlings' Harry Potter series, the character of Bellatrix Lestrange is both formidable and scary, she is also supremely devoted to Voldemort; indeed bordering on adoration. But can this be described as love?
Could the Dame be in this mould?
Hmm, Bellatrix is also quite off the deep end.
I wouldn't consider Bellatrix Lestrange's devotion to Voldemort as love, I'd call more something along the lines of fanatical devotion. And it is clearly very much one sided. So, yes perhaps Dame does have some sort of fanatical devotion towards Kane. But on his end, Kane views Dame only as a very loyal follower, being no better or more important than Deacon, Rooke, Bishop, or Phule.

I think the reason why we have not seen Dame yet, is not because Kane is somehow protecting her, or even holding her back in some way for later. I expect that Dame is extremely busy in Valencia, working as a combination public relations envoy, and spy on the Valencian aristocrats.

Gunner's Mate
Feb 22, 2011
271
anecorbie on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
In J.K. Rowlings' Harry Potter series, the character of Bellatrix Lestrange is both formidable and scary, she is also supremely devoted to Voldemort; indeed bordering on adoration. But can this be described as love?
Could the Dame be in this mould?
Another debatable topic- I think Dame might be a bit more... human than the others. She may have emotions, whereas the others just followed Kane because they were programmed to. Which brings me back to the idea she might be on our side, seeing as she could've seen the un-ethnicality of the Armada...

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
darkdoombro345 on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
Another debatable topic- I think Dame might be a bit more... human than the others. She may have emotions, whereas the others just followed Kane because they were programmed to. Which brings me back to the idea she might be on our side, seeing as she could've seen the un-ethnicality of the Armada...
I gave you a 'yar' because your reasons are presented clearly and the speculation that a female is more inclined to be intelligent enough to see through the sham of Kane and the Armada.
But sadly, I can't agree, it is a version of the stereotype that Anne presented in her post,. The version that says females are more gentle and sympathetic than males. All we need is for the Lady Elite to 'fall in love' with the hero and betray her 'people'. ( or in the case of a girl pirate, win her respect and admiration. )

Admiral
Jul 27, 2012
1190
anecorbie on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
In J.K. Rowlings' Harry Potter series, the character of Bellatrix Lestrange is both formidable and scary, she is also supremely devoted to Voldemort; indeed bordering on adoration. But can this be described as love?
Could the Dame be in this mould?
Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Harry Potter series and think it truly excellent, but that is a bit of what I meant earlier: the female villain is a 'bad guy' out of love. So, when a female villain is based on this premise, generally, her personality essentially does not matter; she does what she does for love (or what she thinks is love). Though in the case of Bellatrix Lestrange, as CdeWinter points out, Rowling creates the character by tweaking the fanaticism of Voldemort's followers into something more intense, and adding a whopping dose of insanity and sadism. Even so, she is not a particularly compelling character: scary - yes, but mostly just... crazy (and honestly, I think that is intentional on the part of the author). Lestrange is not compelling the way a female villain acting on her own initiative is, someone like, oo, say... Milady deWinter (and more on that idea later).

But I think all of the Elite are devoted to Kane, yes, fanatically so, even Phule in his own peculiar way. After all, for them, what else is there? Why would they have sympathy to humans, who are so fragile and inferior to their refined mechanical forms? Why wouldn't they be devoted to their creator? Why wouldn't they also seek the ultimate victory of the living automata over the sentient animals? (and that includes us, by the way)

No, I'd like to think that the Lady Elite is as cold-hearted as the rest of them (really, she doesn't have a heart of course). Like the other Elites, she competes for Kane's favor but for the same reasons.

Admiral
Jul 27, 2012
1190
anecorbie on Aug 20, 2014 wrote:
I'm really not ready to discuss Desdemona; as, like you, I don't believe she is the Lady/Dame. "Your fate hinges on Desdemona, win her love" to paraphrase Apollo. Personally, I think she has been embittered against fate ( ? ) or pirates. Perhaps her love was killed in the war?
Ahh, that lovely song!
"The poor fool sat sighing,
By a sycamore tree,
Sing all a green willow..."
You know that song?! Awesome! (gosh, maybe I'm not nearly as odd as some people tell me )

Ah, willow, willow, willow... shall be my garland

Admiral
Jul 27, 2012
1190
anecorbie on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
I gave you a 'yar' because your reasons are presented clearly and the speculation that a female is more inclined to be intelligent enough to see through the sham of Kane and the Armada.
But sadly, I can't agree, it is a version of the stereotype that Anne presented in her post,. The version that says females are more gentle and sympathetic than males. All we need is for the Lady Elite to 'fall in love' with the hero and betray her 'people'. ( or in the case of a girl pirate, win her respect and admiration. )
Now, since we are discussing the Lady Elite, I think a very good question is: Why did Kane develop female automata anyway? He certainly did not need to... after all, I have yet to see toy soldiers in a box have female soldiers and officers represented, even though historically there have always been at least a few in real life.

I would venture to guess that first, Kane seems to reckon that the female form has certain advantages that can be exploited in combat. His most dangerous troops we have seen so far are the Dragoons and the Battle Angels, and both possess a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. Dragoons might be seen as sort of uber-males: huge, strong, powerful; quite capable of pounding an errant pirate into the pavement with very little effort. But while there are big, powerful human men who are also quite fast, that isn't the norm, and the Dragoons reflect that. They are not fast-moving (on the other hand, they don't have to be!). The Battle Angels with their female forms are fast and agile (I call them 'Ballerinas of Doom'), and although their weapons are not big, they certainly are sharp and deadly enough. Their slight forms are light enough to glide short distances on their mechanical wings, also ensuring a swift mobility. Now just imagine these swift, deadly fighters if Kane figures out how to have them develop 'hide in shadows'!

So it seems for Kane, that the female form = fast, light, graceful, very dangerous with small sparkguns and sharp objects. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this prototype as the basis for the Lady Elite. But she is much more than that. With her, I believe Kane has perfected the art of deception -- very important in military tactics.

The Armada has a reputation. You see those clockwork soldiers coming, and you are going to run, hide, or fight. They are very good at sneak attacks (look at Deacon!), but in any parley their opposition is not going to be convinced that they come in peace, if that is the story Kane wants told.

Enter the Lady Elite. A number of people on the Message Boards have concluded that because she is gowned elegantly, she is not combat material. Of course, that is possible (though I really don't think so). But consider the famous example in fiction (actually based on a real person) of Milady deWinter. Milady - beautiful, utterly immoral, and cunning- has no real fighting skills but she charms the heroes into believing her innocence and leaves a startling path of theft, deception, betrayal, and murder in her wake. Now, just imagine Milady as if she was a deadly fighter! It would have been a lot tougher for the Three Musketeers and D'Artagnan!

So if the Lady Elite comes to us and claims that she is an unwilling pawn of Kane and will help us, would we believe her innocence? Would we trust her?

Captain
Jun 26, 2010
583
Hmm well, this all be great topics & theories fair Anecorbie, but to be honest lass I think we need to figure out their next move concerning the next world and more importantly the next map piece, I be getting the feeling that we be getting into deep water very soon, I just know it.

- Deadeye Jack Morgan

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
Anne Radcliffe on Aug 24, 2014 wrote:
Now, since we are discussing the Lady Elite, I think a very good question is: Why did Kane develop female automata anyway? He certainly did not need to... after all, I have yet to see toy soldiers in a box have female soldiers and officers represented, even though historically there have always been at least a few in real life.

I would venture to guess that first, Kane seems to reckon that the female form has certain advantages that can be exploited in combat. His most dangerous troops we have seen so far are the Dragoons and the Battle Angels, and both possess a ranged weapon and a melee weapon. Dragoons might be seen as sort of uber-males: huge, strong, powerful; quite capable of pounding an errant pirate into the pavement with very little effort. But while there are big, powerful human men who are also quite fast, that isn't the norm, and the Dragoons reflect that. They are not fast-moving (on the other hand, they don't have to be!). The Battle Angels with their female forms are fast and agile (I call them 'Ballerinas of Doom'), and although their weapons are not big, they certainly are sharp and deadly enough. Their slight forms are light enough to glide short distances on their mechanical wings, also ensuring a swift mobility. Now just imagine these swift, deadly fighters if Kane figures out how to have them develop 'hide in shadows'!

So it seems for Kane, that the female form = fast, light, graceful, very dangerous with small sparkguns and sharp objects. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this prototype as the basis for the Lady Elite. But she is much more than that. With her, I believe Kane has perfected the art of deception -- very important in military tactics.

The Armada has a reputation. You see those clockwork soldiers coming, and you are going to run, hide, or fight. They are very good at sneak attacks (look at Deacon!), but in any parley their opposition is not going to be convinced that they come in peace, if that is the story Kane wants told.

Enter the Lady Elite. A number of people on the Message Boards have concluded that because she is gowned elegantly, she is not combat material. Of course, that is possible (though I really don't think so). But consider the famous example in fiction (actually based on a real person) of Milady deWinter. Milady - beautiful, utterly immoral, and cunning- has no real fighting skills but she charms the heroes into believing her innocence and leaves a startling path of theft, deception, betrayal, and murder in her wake. Now, just imagine Milady as if she was a deadly fighter! It would have been a lot tougher for the Three Musketeers and D'Artagnan!

So if the Lady Elite comes to us and claims that she is an unwilling pawn of Kane and will help us, would we believe her innocence? Would we trust her?
'Ballerinas of Death'! I know from previous posts that you are a fan of ballet. Of course you have noticed that they stand in third position, and pirouette in their attacks. They even 'die' in the standard 'lay down to sleep' used in Swan Lake, for example.
I hope KI doesn't make our pirates so gullible as to trust either Dame or Phule; as some players hope that they could be allies!
And no, you're not weird to be enjoying Shakespeare Although for songs, I prefer either "Sigh no More Ladies" or "It was a Lover and his Lass"
With a Hey Nonny Nonny!

post edit - sorry, you used the word 'Doom', not death!

Lieutenant
Nov 04, 2012
109
I wonder if the female clockwork is also a master of disguise as well as being a master of propaganda as blind mew said she kinda looks a wee bit like someone we've meet before like Queen Eleanor or one of the other queens in Monquista but in clockwork form maybe Queen Isadore she did send you to Zenda to but gortez in prison then betrayed you and tells the guards to kill you then gets the entire armada kinda sounds like something the armada would do don't you think..

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
Polaris1055 on Aug 26, 2014 wrote:
I wonder if the female clockwork is also a master of disguise as well as being a master of propaganda as blind mew said she kinda looks a wee bit like someone we've meet before like Queen Eleanor or one of the other queens in Monquista but in clockwork form maybe Queen Isadore she did send you to Zenda to but gortez in prison then betrayed you and tells the guards to kill you then gets the entire armada kinda sounds like something the armada would do don't you think..
It's an interesting suggestion that she might be a master of disguise. After all, we know very little about ( former ) Queen Isadora. Did she have any unexplained absences from the court? What happened to her after the revolution?
However, monkeys are very small and although its possible to disguise a face and voice, its more difficult for a tall person to imitate a short one.

Gunner's Mate
Feb 22, 2011
271
Polaris1055 on Aug 26, 2014 wrote:
I wonder if the female clockwork is also a master of disguise as well as being a master of propaganda as blind mew said she kinda looks a wee bit like someone we've meet before like Queen Eleanor or one of the other queens in Monquista but in clockwork form maybe Queen Isadore she did send you to Zenda to but gortez in prison then betrayed you and tells the guards to kill you then gets the entire armada kinda sounds like something the armada would do don't you think..
Why were there so many governors for Peurto Mico, hmm?

Lieutenant
Nov 04, 2012
109
well you never know what would be the only reason why Isadore turned the whole monquistan army against you. You did nothing to them and they never said they or short. Maybe The armada took a sample of Queen Eleanor to make "Isadore" (because they got the same hair and Voice and the other queens sound different) then threw Eleanor in jail so "Eleanor" changes her name to Isadore and hears your coming so she sets up a myth of the monkey's paw (Phule's Wand) and makes the demon monkeys and Dead monkeys.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
Polaris1055 on Aug 27, 2014 wrote:
well you never know what would be the only reason why Isadore turned the whole monquistan army against you. You did nothing to them and they never said they or short. Maybe The armada took a sample of Queen Eleanor to make "Isadore" (because they got the same hair and Voice and the other queens sound different) then threw Eleanor in jail so "Eleanor" changes her name to Isadore and hears your coming so she sets up a myth of the monkey's paw (Phule's Wand) and makes the demon monkeys and Dead monkeys.
I think it is a co-incidence that those queens looked alike. Queen Anna and Queen Catherine were also twins. This is to spare the character modelers ( of KI ) from making hundreds of unique characters
It was King Ferdinand who ordered our execution, not Isadora. The Monkey's Paw was not a myth, as you recall, it was very real.
This isn't to say that the Lady can't be a spy or a master of disguise, your idea is creative and has merit.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
darkdoombro345 on Aug 27, 2014 wrote:
Why were there so many governors for Peurto Mico, hmm?
Monkey's are fickle creatures & easily bored ( if you want to torture Monkey King, make him sit in a corner and give him nothing to do ).

Gunner's Mate
Feb 22, 2011
271
anecorbie on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Monkey's are fickle creatures & easily bored ( if you want to torture Monkey King, make him sit in a corner and give him nothing to do ).
Good point indeed, my good sir, good point indeed.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
darkdoombro345 on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Good point indeed, my good sir, good point indeed.
I don't wish to embarrass you, but maybe I haven't introduce myself properly; I'm Esperanza Devereaux, and I'm a female!

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
With the new 'Hidden' soon to be applied in the live realm ( very soon, I hope ) I wonder if Dame might have a 'hide'? And what level of 'hide' it might be? I'm scared, yet exhilarated at the same time. To face an enemy SB of her stature, would be exciting! I wonder what level she'll be and what levels we'll need to face her?
Blind Mew mentioned that we scared Bishop so badly, that he's getting upgrades!
And then there's Phule, the wild card. Also an unknown quantity,. though some people are speculating that he's a pawn, I disagree. They point out that Phule and pawn begin with the same letter. this is a mistake.. We've already been fighting the 'pawns', these are the standard Armada forces.
Phule is an Elite, we must not underestimate him!

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
CdeWinter on Aug 22, 2014 wrote:
Hmm, Bellatrix is also quite off the deep end.
I wouldn't consider Bellatrix Lestrange's devotion to Voldemort as love, I'd call more something along the lines of fanatical devotion. And it is clearly very much one sided. So, yes perhaps Dame does have some sort of fanatical devotion towards Kane. But on his end, Kane views Dame only as a very loyal follower, being no better or more important than Deacon, Rooke, Bishop, or Phule.

I think the reason why we have not seen Dame yet, is not because Kane is somehow protecting her, or even holding her back in some way for later. I expect that Dame is extremely busy in Valencia, working as a combination public relations envoy, and spy on the Valencian aristocrats.
Did you know that you can say the word "milady" in game?! What if the Lady Elite is actually --- Milady!

Gunner's Mate
Feb 22, 2011
271
anecorbie on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
I don't wish to embarrass you, but maybe I haven't introduce myself properly; I'm Esperanza Devereaux, and I'm a female!
Heh, I know, but... Ok, revision, Esperanza.
Good point, milady, good point indeed. *bows courteously*
Well, there we go. Fixed.

Lieutenant
Nov 04, 2012
109
anecorbie on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
I think it is a co-incidence that those queens looked alike. Queen Anna and Queen Catherine were also twins. This is to spare the character modelers ( of KI ) from making hundreds of unique characters
It was King Ferdinand who ordered our execution, not Isadora. The Monkey's Paw was not a myth, as you recall, it was very real.
This isn't to say that the Lady can't be a spy or a master of disguise, your idea is creative and has merit.
thanks for commenting on my brilliant Ideas again Esperanza for some reason I think the Fortune from my fortune cookie was right it said "Your Creativity is needed by others". I think it's right. And I admit that I have a load of Ideas in my bedroom if Kingsile needs Suggestions like for the next book I'll be honored to tell you about my Idea for the world that i made up where Catbeard's original home world and back story of how he got to Marleybone.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
5736
Polaris1055 on Sep 6, 2014 wrote:
thanks for commenting on my brilliant Ideas again Esperanza for some reason I think the Fortune from my fortune cookie was right it said "Your Creativity is needed by others". I think it's right. And I admit that I have a load of Ideas in my bedroom if Kingsile needs Suggestions like for the next book I'll be honored to tell you about my Idea for the world that i made up where Catbeard's original home world and back story of how he got to Marleybone.
Please develop those ideas for a fan fiction and submit it, it would be great to read that story about our favorite Cat!

Lieutenant
Nov 04, 2012
109