The REAL problem with swashbucklers

AuthorMessage
Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
You are going off track here with your post, the topic is, the real problem with swashbucklers... There are other threads or we could start a new thread to talk about how OP the grizzly beast companions are, that would be fine, but lets not hijack this thread to debate this. Even by your own accord, the Buck and Musketeer one are great, which I am sure, if the others still only have 5 epics, that is an oversight (Bug) that will be fixed, since that does not make any sense for them not to have the same amount of epics, now does it?

Anyway, I was bringing them up, because people fail to realize the importance of having a great setup, choice of companions, choice of epics, and just scream that things are too overpowered if they don't have the right setup or if they use the wrong choice of companions.

Sorry, but there are no real problems with swashbucklers, the real problem are with peoples choices.
You are the one who said that "The real problem with PVP is not classes being over powered, or talents, it's the rare companions you get from the Grizzly Packs!" Also the musket only has five epics, Baar is kind of like the leader of the beast masters so he gets extra powers. Its no glitch. Every Bear follows the rules that Kingsilse mentioned in the update.

As for that last sentence there are so many comments in the forums that you can read that respond to that, I wont even bother responding.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Oct 4, 2015 wrote:
Oh my goodness! Now you're after Hurl knife/blades?!
1. it does very little damage
2. it has the worst range of any range attacks
It hurts mobility, as if you can't reach me in 3 squares. Oh but if you want to run away, well that's different.
And now you're accusing KI of "playing favorites"? Get real!!!!!
I think you're the one who is most prejudiced here.
Read closer. I didnt start the hurl kinves point. I was just agreeing with someone else and using it to make a point. I dont actually care about hurl knives I just thing bucklers have too many advantages. So go harp on them if you dont like their comment. Unless you enjoy attacking me specifically for no reason.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Darth JT on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
A swashbuckler should not be able to win off of hide and poison alone, if you are that easily defeated, you should not be playing pvp. There are many ways to reduce and/or absorb damage. Swashbucklers only have 1 poison that prevents healing, which, as I stated before, if a player knows what they are doing, they can easily reduce damage and/or absorb the damage. Every class can hide, it is not class specific to swashbuckler alone. however yes, Swashbucklers can have the most hides.

Now, for the other grizzly beast companions if only 1 has 7 epics and the others have 5, sounds like a bug that I am sure will be corrected. However, for you to simply discard the 2 summon and the epic abilities of the grizzly companion? That is like trying to state that the moo robe before its nerf was irrelevant in pvp. It's simply not true.

So, let me counter some of your so called over exaggerated mathematics, shall I? Do you know that Pirates can Leviathan call? Kraken Lament? Valor Armor, Valor Shield? Hide? There are so many ways to reduce damage from yes, even poison. Did you also know that these damage reductions stack? Did you also know that if you spread your team out poison will not hit the entire team? You try to make it sound like a swashbuckler will hit every pirate and companion with poison every time, that is just not the case.

As with any class Swashbucklers have limited cards that can appear at any given time. Fog will not always appear in the lineup immediately, in fact, it is very easy and possible to defeat a Swashbuckler in 1 or 2 rounds. Strategy and counters are the bread and butter of PVP, if you are not thinking of ways to counter things, then you are not trying to pvp, you are begging for wins!
Your wrong on several accounts. Or your opinion is one sided.

Starting with the easiest...I am NOT disregarding BAAR's 2 summons...I am disregarding the "may summons" of the other 5 bears. Baar can pull his pets out whenever he wants. But I have been through LOOOONG matches where the other bears pet never even showed. So please read my posts closers before you ridicule. ((And even if you read it right...are you seriously comparing a pet level helper to the moo robe companions? Thats like compare a lizard to a dragon or something calling them the same.))

As for the "bug" it is NOT a bug. Before it was taken down I had a whole thread about this in the pvp test realm page. I begged and pleaded for them to change this! But Ratbeard himself responded and said it was not a bug. Whats even more odd...is the aztecosaur companions from THAT pack all got the 2-3 extra boosts from the update. Only the bears were left behind...and I am pretty sure it was because Baar alone was over powered. But as I pointed out even he will be left behind as the new level updates occur. Sure he might still be viable cause of his 5 moves...but he will have an epic deficit.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
You are the one who said that "The real problem with PVP is not classes being over powered, or talents, it's the rare companions you get from the Grizzly Packs!" Also the musket only has five epics, Baar is kind of like the leader of the beast masters so he gets extra powers. Its no glitch. Every Bear follows the rules that Kingsilse mentioned in the update.

As for that last sentence there are so many comments in the forums that you can read that respond to that, I wont even bother responding.
You are right. Darth JT started this side track now he is complaining. But also they do indeed follow the rules. I hounded Ratbeard until he explained it too me and sure enough the beard DO follow the rules even though it doesn't look like they got anything from this last update.

Putting it simply...they NERFED the bears...and THEN...gave them more boosts that followed the update at the same time :P So yes they got upgraded...but only after they were reduced. So in the end...no...the bears gained nothing while everyone around them got tons of boosts. The once highly sought after companions are now sort...meh.

And yes...I do have all the bears. I loved and cherished them. Now...Baar is the only one I still use unless I am throwing them away in a smuggler arena match or something.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Darth JT on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
A swashbuckler should not be able to win off of hide and poison alone, if you are that easily defeated, you should not be playing pvp. There are many ways to reduce and/or absorb damage. Swashbucklers only have 1 poison that prevents healing, which, as I stated before, if a player knows what they are doing, they can easily reduce damage and/or absorb the damage. Every class can hide, it is not class specific to swashbuckler alone. however yes, Swashbucklers can have the most hides.

Now, for the other grizzly beast companions if only 1 has 7 epics and the others have 5, sounds like a bug that I am sure will be corrected. However, for you to simply discard the 2 summon and the epic abilities of the grizzly companion? That is like trying to state that the moo robe before its nerf was irrelevant in pvp. It's simply not true.

So, let me counter some of your so called over exaggerated mathematics, shall I? Do you know that Pirates can Leviathan call? Kraken Lament? Valor Armor, Valor Shield? Hide? There are so many ways to reduce damage from yes, even poison. Did you also know that these damage reductions stack? Did you also know that if you spread your team out poison will not hit the entire team? You try to make it sound like a swashbuckler will hit every pirate and companion with poison every time, that is just not the case.

As with any class Swashbucklers have limited cards that can appear at any given time. Fog will not always appear in the lineup immediately, in fact, it is very easy and possible to defeat a Swashbuckler in 1 or 2 rounds. Strategy and counters are the bread and butter of PVP, if you are not thinking of ways to counter things, then you are not trying to pvp, you are begging for wins!
To address your other mistakes...sigh...your clearly biased and/or not reading everything thoroughly. But I will try to address them again.

Many ways to reduce and/or absorb damage
Haha...many ways you say? First of all there are not MANY ways..there is only 2. Absorb and fort. Two is not "many". Absorb has ITS OWN bug I address in another thread! If a buckler fails to break absorb with his hit...then he gets to REMAIN hidden and hit again! So if I use absorb to counter...I might be opening myself up to an even worse problem! As for fort...there are only so many a person can carry before it eats into other necessary gear. But a buckler has gear too with even more cloak and poison! Most carry three 5 round poisons...one with curse...and the 3 round mini one. But even more scary...is a bug I am addressing on its own thread...and this ia loop hole that makes it so RESIST doesn't stop poison either! This one is still being confirmed so I wont say more yet. But in summary...poison isn't hindered by hardly anything except fort. But KI doesn't give tons of fort gear so options are limited.

Leviathan call etc....stacking
Um...none of those stop poison except fort an I already talked about that. As for the stacking of shields. Because cloak lasts 5 rounds...a buckler can WAIT OUT others buffs and defenses. A smart buckler has FOUR 5 round cloaks and one 3 round one. That is basically 4 shields AT LEAST that are all but waisted. So yes they can survive off poison and cloak alone. Oh yeah...and purge...doesnt remove cloak either. So with those that cary it. Usually they curse me...wait for me to try and stop the poison...then purge the armor i just put up...while remaining hidden. Forcing me to put on ANOTHER one and thus waist MORE shields.

Everyone can cloak
But theirs only lasts 3 rounds. And if they use gear with a 5 round cloak...well then they probably have to give up a fort or heal for that extra cloak. Basically your counter points are competing with one another.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Darth JT on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
A swashbuckler should not be able to win off of hide and poison alone, if you are that easily defeated, you should not be playing pvp. There are many ways to reduce and/or absorb damage. Swashbucklers only have 1 poison that prevents healing, which, as I stated before, if a player knows what they are doing, they can easily reduce damage and/or absorb the damage. Every class can hide, it is not class specific to swashbuckler alone. however yes, Swashbucklers can have the most hides.

Now, for the other grizzly beast companions if only 1 has 7 epics and the others have 5, sounds like a bug that I am sure will be corrected. However, for you to simply discard the 2 summon and the epic abilities of the grizzly companion? That is like trying to state that the moo robe before its nerf was irrelevant in pvp. It's simply not true.

So, let me counter some of your so called over exaggerated mathematics, shall I? Do you know that Pirates can Leviathan call? Kraken Lament? Valor Armor, Valor Shield? Hide? There are so many ways to reduce damage from yes, even poison. Did you also know that these damage reductions stack? Did you also know that if you spread your team out poison will not hit the entire team? You try to make it sound like a swashbuckler will hit every pirate and companion with poison every time, that is just not the case.

As with any class Swashbucklers have limited cards that can appear at any given time. Fog will not always appear in the lineup immediately, in fact, it is very easy and possible to defeat a Swashbuckler in 1 or 2 rounds. Strategy and counters are the bread and butter of PVP, if you are not thinking of ways to counter things, then you are not trying to pvp, you are begging for wins!
Begging for wins?
Haha...I am not begging for wins. I am simply pointing out that a smart buckler who has equipped the right gear...has so many weapons at their disposal it is IMPOSSIBLE to counter THEM ALL.

If I pack extra fort to fight I have less hits and heals and they just use their 4-6 cloaks to wait them out. Or worse they purge them off forcing me to burn through shields even faster.

If I pack extra heals they time their curse with their hits and make it so I am dead or mostly dead so I cant use them.

If I use cloak then they just use the window to kill a companion, buff up, and/or cast more poison killing me through my cloak while my counter hit is nullified cause of first strike 3. And again I have less fort and heals. If I used my cloak to counter their cloak...then I cant use it to stall for time when I am cursed. ((that no healing window is kind of a death sentence sometimes yes there is only one...but thats all they need))

If I try all of them...then none are high enough to counter everything. More heals leaves me open to strikes. More shields leaves me without heals and less hits. More cloak leaves me open to poison through the shadows.

The entire point of this thread...isnt just to complain about poison. Its to point out that bucklers have too many weapons at their disposal. Mixed magic and physical damage cloaks, poison not affected by resist, the list goes on and on and on. The reason their are so many buckler complains out there IS BECAUSE they have too much. Buckers ARE over powered weather you admit it or not. I simply choose the one that, TO ME, is the most annoying.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
Begging for wins?
Haha...I am not begging for wins. I am simply pointing out that a smart buckler who has equipped the right gear...has so many weapons at their disposal it is IMPOSSIBLE to counter THEM ALL.

If I pack extra fort to fight I have less hits and heals and they just use their 4-6 cloaks to wait them out. Or worse they purge them off forcing me to burn through shields even faster.

If I pack extra heals they time their curse with their hits and make it so I am dead or mostly dead so I cant use them.

If I use cloak then they just use the window to kill a companion, buff up, and/or cast more poison killing me through my cloak while my counter hit is nullified cause of first strike 3. And again I have less fort and heals. If I used my cloak to counter their cloak...then I cant use it to stall for time when I am cursed. ((that no healing window is kind of a death sentence sometimes yes there is only one...but thats all they need))

If I try all of them...then none are high enough to counter everything. More heals leaves me open to strikes. More shields leaves me without heals and less hits. More cloak leaves me open to poison through the shadows.

The entire point of this thread...isnt just to complain about poison. Its to point out that bucklers have too many weapons at their disposal. Mixed magic and physical damage cloaks, poison not affected by resist, the list goes on and on and on. The reason their are so many buckler complains out there IS BECAUSE they have too much. Buckers ARE over powered weather you admit it or not. I simply choose the one that, TO ME, is the most annoying.
Okay, first off, let me address a few things. I am not complaining about anything, except for the fact that people are whining, complaining, and crying overpowered way too much.

Secondly, some people are at disadvantages in this game because they don't have tons of money to spend on packs or bundles to get some of the best gear or companions, yes, this stuff can and does make a difference, especially when playing against a good player.

Now, on to reply to this post, there are a lot of IF's in your thread, which is entirely the point of PVP is it not?

IF only a Buccaneer had a pet that granted them kraken lament, grant rally, rainbow blessing, grants relentless, grants elusive, grants turn the tide, oh wait, this is possible, isn't it?

If only a Buccaneer could stack defense? Oh wait, they can. If only a Buccaneer could hide, oh wait they can. If only Buccaneer could assassins strike, oh wait they can. If only a Buccaneer could stun a swashbuckler from chaining while being able to chain themselves, oh wait, they can.

Wait, is this turning into how a Buccaneer is too overpowered or is this still a Swashbuckler too overpowered thread. But wait, there is more, people have also talked about how overpowered Witch Doctors are now with the new Scratch Buff and how Witch Doctors are too overpowered now, not to mention this also works on bombs and traps making Musketeers overpowered too.

How in the same thread can practically every class be called overpowered, yet a few people are still rambling on about swashbucklers being too overpowered? How is it, some people have no problem defeating a swashbuckler with these powers on the same class as you are, yet, you are complaining so much that this class is so overpowered? Sounds like personal choices, setup, and strategies are key to winning or losing in a PVP battle. Is it not the player that is prepared and has a strategy to combat those classes that are the ones that are overpowered and not the class itself?

.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9110
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
Begging for wins?
Haha...I am not begging for wins. I am simply pointing out that a smart buckler who has equipped the right gear...has so many weapons at their disposal it is IMPOSSIBLE to counter THEM ALL.

If I pack extra fort to fight I have less hits and heals and they just use their 4-6 cloaks to wait them out. Or worse they purge them off forcing me to burn through shields even faster.

If I pack extra heals they time their curse with their hits and make it so I am dead or mostly dead so I cant use them.

If I use cloak then they just use the window to kill a companion, buff up, and/or cast more poison killing me through my cloak while my counter hit is nullified cause of first strike 3. And again I have less fort and heals. If I used my cloak to counter their cloak...then I cant use it to stall for time when I am cursed. ((that no healing window is kind of a death sentence sometimes yes there is only one...but thats all they need))

If I try all of them...then none are high enough to counter everything. More heals leaves me open to strikes. More shields leaves me without heals and less hits. More cloak leaves me open to poison through the shadows.

The entire point of this thread...isnt just to complain about poison. Its to point out that bucklers have too many weapons at their disposal. Mixed magic and physical damage cloaks, poison not affected by resist, the list goes on and on and on. The reason their are so many buckler complains out there IS BECAUSE they have too much. Buckers ARE over powered weather you admit it or not. I simply choose the one that, TO ME, is the most annoying.
Your opening statement can be applied to ANY class. You don't have to counter them all, you just need to be prepared for the most common attacks.
Unless your opponent has something unique and unexpected in their gear, then you can be prepared. And strategically meet their strategy.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Darth JT on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
Okay, first off, let me address a few things. I am not complaining about anything, except for the fact that people are whining, complaining, and crying overpowered way too much.

Secondly, some people are at disadvantages in this game because they don't have tons of money to spend on packs or bundles to get some of the best gear or companions, yes, this stuff can and does make a difference, especially when playing against a good player.

Now, on to reply to this post, there are a lot of IF's in your thread, which is entirely the point of PVP is it not?

IF only a Buccaneer had a pet that granted them kraken lament, grant rally, rainbow blessing, grants relentless, grants elusive, grants turn the tide, oh wait, this is possible, isn't it?

If only a Buccaneer could stack defense? Oh wait, they can. If only a Buccaneer could hide, oh wait they can. If only Buccaneer could assassins strike, oh wait they can. If only a Buccaneer could stun a swashbuckler from chaining while being able to chain themselves, oh wait, they can.

Wait, is this turning into how a Buccaneer is too overpowered or is this still a Swashbuckler too overpowered thread. But wait, there is more, people have also talked about how overpowered Witch Doctors are now with the new Scratch Buff and how Witch Doctors are too overpowered now, not to mention this also works on bombs and traps making Musketeers overpowered too.

How in the same thread can practically every class be called overpowered, yet a few people are still rambling on about swashbucklers being too overpowered? How is it, some people have no problem defeating a swashbuckler with these powers on the same class as you are, yet, you are complaining so much that this class is so overpowered? Sounds like personal choices, setup, and strategies are key to winning or losing in a PVP battle. Is it not the player that is prepared and has a strategy to combat those classes that are the ones that are overpowered and not the class itself?

.
The problem that he is addressing is not the single powerful things that each class get, its the fact that these single powerful things are very widespread in type in the swashbuckler's arsenal. Time over damage based off spooky that stops healing and ignores resist & buccaneer's shields? Got it. Now on a completely unrelated note to that, they can hide there entire team which makes them untargetable to any non-aoe attack and do double damage. Now they also have something that can remove the buffs everyone has in an area that protect them from the previously mentioned things (purge). They also have a buff that greatly increases their critical damage, and they have an ability that at any time they can get to the other side of the board regardless of most traps and obstacles (fast + jump + alert). Now they also have items that directly raise their weapon power while giving some of the above abilities.

You compare this to what buccaneers have, while that really isn't a just way of working with it. Everything a buck has can be gotten by other class, except for 2 abilities. Those are Reckless Frenzy (Not even worth arguing about), and Highland Charge, which, while is very nice, can be replicated better in a pet power. This is the problem he is addressing, not just that each class has these things. Also, about that chaining bit: Hah. The chances of that are kind of balanced out by all the first strike and ripostes.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
The problem that he is addressing is not the single powerful things that each class get, its the fact that these single powerful things are very widespread in type in the swashbuckler's arsenal. Time over damage based off spooky that stops healing and ignores resist & buccaneer's shields? Got it. Now on a completely unrelated note to that, they can hide there entire team which makes them untargetable to any non-aoe attack and do double damage. Now they also have something that can remove the buffs everyone has in an area that protect them from the previously mentioned things (purge). They also have a buff that greatly increases their critical damage, and they have an ability that at any time they can get to the other side of the board regardless of most traps and obstacles (fast + jump + alert). Now they also have items that directly raise their weapon power while giving some of the above abilities.

You compare this to what buccaneers have, while that really isn't a just way of working with it. Everything a buck has can be gotten by other class, except for 2 abilities. Those are Reckless Frenzy (Not even worth arguing about), and Highland Charge, which, while is very nice, can be replicated better in a pet power. This is the problem he is addressing, not just that each class has these things. Also, about that chaining bit: Hah. The chances of that are kind of balanced out by all the first strike and ripostes.
You do know what talents are and how to use them, yes? Do you read what talents and powers do? Buccaneers can get a guaranteed hit with vicious charge that reduces accuracy, get a glancing blow, both of which can trigger relentless, both of which can also critical and trigger blade storm.

Add in the fact that Buccaneers get hold the line 3, and if you have trained elusive 2 and get a pet that grants elusive, you have elusive 3. Pretty hard to hit a Buccaneer when they have all of this going on, not to mention their damage reductions. Yes, I know this because I have a Buccaneer and it is pretty easy to defeat a swashbuckler. I also have a swashbuckler, so I know the benefits and strategies of both. I have seen many times where riposte does not mean anything when a vengeance stuns you and prevents you from further using your epics.

So, because of hide and a poison that prevents healing for 5 rounds, to which you could hide and heal yourself, how are swashbucklers so overpowered? This is your entire basis and there is no foundation yet to prove how overpowered swashbucklers are, if this were true, swashbucklers would never lose, that would then prove that they are indeed overpowered, but this is just not the case.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9110
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
The problem that he is addressing is not the single powerful things that each class get, its the fact that these single powerful things are very widespread in type in the swashbuckler's arsenal. Time over damage based off spooky that stops healing and ignores resist & buccaneer's shields? Got it. Now on a completely unrelated note to that, they can hide there entire team which makes them untargetable to any non-aoe attack and do double damage. Now they also have something that can remove the buffs everyone has in an area that protect them from the previously mentioned things (purge). They also have a buff that greatly increases their critical damage, and they have an ability that at any time they can get to the other side of the board regardless of most traps and obstacles (fast + jump + alert). Now they also have items that directly raise their weapon power while giving some of the above abilities.

You compare this to what buccaneers have, while that really isn't a just way of working with it. Everything a buck has can be gotten by other class, except for 2 abilities. Those are Reckless Frenzy (Not even worth arguing about), and Highland Charge, which, while is very nice, can be replicated better in a pet power. This is the problem he is addressing, not just that each class has these things. Also, about that chaining bit: Hah. The chances of that are kind of balanced out by all the first strike and ripostes.
First strikes and ripostes are balanced by: Stun.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
The problem that he is addressing is not the single powerful things that each class get, its the fact that these single powerful things are very widespread in type in the swashbuckler's arsenal. Time over damage based off spooky that stops healing and ignores resist & buccaneer's shields? Got it. Now on a completely unrelated note to that, they can hide there entire team which makes them untargetable to any non-aoe attack and do double damage. Now they also have something that can remove the buffs everyone has in an area that protect them from the previously mentioned things (purge). They also have a buff that greatly increases their critical damage, and they have an ability that at any time they can get to the other side of the board regardless of most traps and obstacles (fast + jump + alert). Now they also have items that directly raise their weapon power while giving some of the above abilities.

You compare this to what buccaneers have, while that really isn't a just way of working with it. Everything a buck has can be gotten by other class, except for 2 abilities. Those are Reckless Frenzy (Not even worth arguing about), and Highland Charge, which, while is very nice, can be replicated better in a pet power. This is the problem he is addressing, not just that each class has these things. Also, about that chaining bit: Hah. The chances of that are kind of balanced out by all the first strike and ripostes.
Thank you Voodoo. These bucklers when they run out of arguments either talk in circles or attack me directly.

The other schools ARENT over powered...because they are limited. They only have so many options at their disposal AND, as you pointed out, most of the good ones EVERYONE can get. I have yet to see assassin mist gear (even the gloom version is rare) or black fog gear! Wouldn't that be cool! The point is the buckler have SO MANY option built into their school...and anything they are lacking they can get from gear. (Hence the triple forted bucklers with purge I keep fighting.)

Yes of course you can argue away any one power that a buckler has and give all sorts of reasons why its "not overpowered." But that is because your are isolating on the one thing. Poison does not stand alone as an issue. No...the issue gets compounded and made worse as each power enhances and empowers the previous ones. If you have ever heard the term "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" ((Einstein quote I think)) THAT is what a buckler is. Yes power A by itself is fine...and power B by it self is fine...but all of them put together on a smart pirate equals WAY MORE than it should be. You get a truly unstoppable pirate with now gaps and no weaknesses.

So...all I did in the thread. Was pick one of the powers. Some attacked black fog. Some attacked hurl knives. I choose poison cause I think it holds a lot of weight. Maybe not by itself standing alone...but I think its like a support pillar. No it won't bring the whole building crumbling down if we nerf it...but it will at least create a hole in the unstoppable fortress that is the buckler class. At the very least make resist affect it properly! Thats not even nerfing it! This and the cloak not vanishing when it fails to break absorb can be fixed without even nerfing.

((Hehe...sorry if I used too many analogies. I know some of you have a hard time reading and understanding the ENTIRE post)) Glad Cornelius gets it at least.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
First strikes and ripostes are balanced by: Stun.
That was my point. The two cancel each other out.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 8, 2015 wrote:
Thank you Voodoo. These bucklers when they run out of arguments either talk in circles or attack me directly.

The other schools ARENT over powered...because they are limited. They only have so many options at their disposal AND, as you pointed out, most of the good ones EVERYONE can get. I have yet to see assassin mist gear (even the gloom version is rare) or black fog gear! Wouldn't that be cool! The point is the buckler have SO MANY option built into their school...and anything they are lacking they can get from gear. (Hence the triple forted bucklers with purge I keep fighting.)

Yes of course you can argue away any one power that a buckler has and give all sorts of reasons why its "not overpowered." But that is because your are isolating on the one thing. Poison does not stand alone as an issue. No...the issue gets compounded and made worse as each power enhances and empowers the previous ones. If you have ever heard the term "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" ((Einstein quote I think)) THAT is what a buckler is. Yes power A by itself is fine...and power B by it self is fine...but all of them put together on a smart pirate equals WAY MORE than it should be. You get a truly unstoppable pirate with now gaps and no weaknesses.

So...all I did in the thread. Was pick one of the powers. Some attacked black fog. Some attacked hurl knives. I choose poison cause I think it holds a lot of weight. Maybe not by itself standing alone...but I think its like a support pillar. No it won't bring the whole building crumbling down if we nerf it...but it will at least create a hole in the unstoppable fortress that is the buckler class. At the very least make resist affect it properly! Thats not even nerfing it! This and the cloak not vanishing when it fails to break absorb can be fixed without even nerfing.

((Hehe...sorry if I used too many analogies. I know some of you have a hard time reading and understanding the ENTIRE post)) Glad Cornelius gets it at least.
So, basically its not so much the class that is overpowered, but the use of the class skills in conjunction with the bugs in game that people are exploiting, such as hides not breaking, that make this class too overpowered, since swashbucklers have the most hides?

So its the swashbucklers fault there are bugs and glitches in the game?

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Darth JT on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
So, basically its not so much the class that is overpowered, but the use of the class skills in conjunction with the bugs in game that people are exploiting, such as hides not breaking, that make this class too overpowered, since swashbucklers have the most hides?

So its the swashbucklers fault there are bugs and glitches in the game?
...

Really?
He is not attacking the swashbuckler class. Its not like he is saying "All swashbucklers are dumb and only win because their class is super OP and stuff". What he is asking is that KI address some of this stuff, like the bugs and glitches that you have mentioned, and the fact that it is very hard to counter the swashbuckler class's array of powers.

This is one of the weirdest arguments I have ever seen on this forum. What you said is that "The class is not overpowered, its the class in conjunction with bugs in the game that is overpowered! Therefore, your argument is invalid."

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Am I missing something here?

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
...

Really?
He is not attacking the swashbuckler class. Its not like he is saying "All swashbucklers are dumb and only win because their class is super OP and stuff". What he is asking is that KI address some of this stuff, like the bugs and glitches that you have mentioned, and the fact that it is very hard to counter the swashbuckler class's array of powers.

This is one of the weirdest arguments I have ever seen on this forum. What you said is that "The class is not overpowered, its the class in conjunction with bugs in the game that is overpowered! Therefore, your argument is invalid."

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Am I missing something here?
No Voodoo your not missing anything. This is just what a lot of nay sayers are like. I have been putting up with ridiculous comments from bucklers trying to argue where they dont read my post and make repeat myself or simply things dramatically.

In this case Darth only read and focused in on the part about bugs...rather than the idea that the class as a whole too many abilities which compound and increase the effectiveness of eachother ((this was the POINT of my last post))...yet somehow he missed it entirely. You see what I have had to put up with on this thread? and its not just darth either. There are a bunch of them. I even used those annalogies and quotes to make things better to understand.

First Mate
Nov 01, 2012
433
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
Oh no! Its coming at last. The old scratch poison combo! We are all doomed. If you didnt think poison was an issue before...well it will definitely be so now! 190 is the average poison people agree on it seems. Well now it will be twice that with the max boost on. That is 380 for 5 rounds BEFORE critical! That is 1900 damage from the shadows! Haha lol and yet despite the fact they remain cloaked and do that level of damage and curse for 6 rounds and use purge to remove my fort when I try to stop it WHILE REMAINING still in the shadows and then buff up right after purge while I am busy trying to put my fort back on...you bucklers still dont think you are over powered. Fine. When bucklers completely start dominating with this new change and bucks who have no magic damage to speak of are left in the dust. Maybe then you will acknowledge that you are an over powered school.

I suppose muskets might get a nice advantage boost and witches will finally be contenders. But it seems like the last few changes have nerfed bucks and boosted everyone else. I guess the game makers love bucklers and hate bucks. Which is a shame cause right now they are already starting to struggle in pvp. And this change might put them at the bottom. Well whatever. Heaven forbid we should ever nerf a buckler to make the pvp experience even.
I don't usually post in the Spar Chamber, but I just noticed one thing in your post that really got on my nerves:

"I guess the game makers love bucklers and hate bucks."

So you're saying that the class that I so often see using Buccaneer weapons and powers is the one favored by developers and not the Buccaneer? Also, bucks do have magic damage. The staff of power from Moo Manchu is magic. Not to mention the fact that you have magic damage companions. Plus, all you need is one turn where the buckler is uncloaked(trust me, there are a lot of those) to knock them to kingdom come. My buccaneer has one shot many a buckler with his great juju, whale's might, Peter Quint's whale's might, and Vicious Charge. I'm not even gonna mention how off your numbers are because Esperanza already did. If you were a witchdoctor complaining I could see where you're coming from, but since you're part of this amazing PvP class, I don't understand what is the problem. IMO, this is one of the stablest times in terms of class balance, and that you feel the need to scapegoat instead of admitting that you could always get better, I know that you can, we all can.

We all have opinions and that's fine, if you do in fact think that Swashbucklers are op, feel free to post some relevant information.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
No Voodoo your not missing anything. This is just what a lot of nay sayers are like. I have been putting up with ridiculous comments from bucklers trying to argue where they dont read my post and make repeat myself or simply things dramatically.

In this case Darth only read and focused in on the part about bugs...rather than the idea that the class as a whole too many abilities which compound and increase the effectiveness of eachother ((this was the POINT of my last post))...yet somehow he missed it entirely. You see what I have had to put up with on this thread? and its not just darth either. There are a bunch of them. I even used those annalogies and quotes to make things better to understand.
The problem here Thomas, is you are all over the place. You keep jumping around like a jumping bean trying to prove a point on a dull end. It just does not work.

Now, if you had proof that swashbucklers never ever lose because of over abundance of abilities swashbucklers have, then you would have a point, however, swashbucklers do lose in PVP, which totally dulls the points you are trying to imply are present.

You should have been wise to leave it where I left it, stating that there are bugs with talents that are a bit unfair, such as hide not always breaking because of absorb. That would be a fact with evidence to back up the statement, since swashbucklers have the most hides of any class.

However, where I think your jealousy of this class comes in, is the fact that swashbucklers have 2 powers that are not offered to other classes by gear, pets, or any other means. Fog being the first, and assassins mist, being the second. Granted, I would love to be able to get these powers on my buccaneer, and I am sure other classes would love to get reckless frenzy, such as privateer.

However, I do not find this to be such an overpowering detail. Swashbucklers are being defeated in the PVP arena. Fog is not as big of a factor as it used to be, Assassins mist is a great advantage, preventing heals, but it is not a make or break power to anyone that knows how to pvp.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Fearless Finnagan on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
I don't usually post in the Spar Chamber, but I just noticed one thing in your post that really got on my nerves:

"I guess the game makers love bucklers and hate bucks."

So you're saying that the class that I so often see using Buccaneer weapons and powers is the one favored by developers and not the Buccaneer? Also, bucks do have magic damage. The staff of power from Moo Manchu is magic. Not to mention the fact that you have magic damage companions. Plus, all you need is one turn where the buckler is uncloaked(trust me, there are a lot of those) to knock them to kingdom come. My buccaneer has one shot many a buckler with his great juju, whale's might, Peter Quint's whale's might, and Vicious Charge. I'm not even gonna mention how off your numbers are because Esperanza already did. If you were a witchdoctor complaining I could see where you're coming from, but since you're part of this amazing PvP class, I don't understand what is the problem. IMO, this is one of the stablest times in terms of class balance, and that you feel the need to scapegoat instead of admitting that you could always get better, I know that you can, we all can.

We all have opinions and that's fine, if you do in fact think that Swashbucklers are op, feel free to post some relevant information.
Well for starters you can't stack strength boosts in pvp. So that juju, wales might, etc combo can't happen in pvp. Also your assuming that a buckler GIVES you a window. When you start hitting the top level all the buckler cary 2 or 3 forts. So even when their cloak DOES come down you have to try and pound through their armor and dodge in order to kill them. Meanwhile bleeding and poison is doing its damage. Most of these so called windows your referring too involve my buck taking just as much damage as he deals out. Especially with the bucklers smart enough to work on pets and have elusive 3.

I am sorry that statement irked you. But I noticed that trend when I played wizard101...that the ice wizards were some how giving a bit of everything from everyone. That statement was more of a concern that the same thing doesn't happen here.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Darth JT on Oct 10, 2015 wrote:
The problem here Thomas, is you are all over the place. You keep jumping around like a jumping bean trying to prove a point on a dull end. It just does not work.

Now, if you had proof that swashbucklers never ever lose because of over abundance of abilities swashbucklers have, then you would have a point, however, swashbucklers do lose in PVP, which totally dulls the points you are trying to imply are present.

You should have been wise to leave it where I left it, stating that there are bugs with talents that are a bit unfair, such as hide not always breaking because of absorb. That would be a fact with evidence to back up the statement, since swashbucklers have the most hides of any class.

However, where I think your jealousy of this class comes in, is the fact that swashbucklers have 2 powers that are not offered to other classes by gear, pets, or any other means. Fog being the first, and assassins mist, being the second. Granted, I would love to be able to get these powers on my buccaneer, and I am sure other classes would love to get reckless frenzy, such as privateer.

However, I do not find this to be such an overpowering detail. Swashbucklers are being defeated in the PVP arena. Fog is not as big of a factor as it used to be, Assassins mist is a great advantage, preventing heals, but it is not a make or break power to anyone that knows how to pvp.
Haha...of COURSE i am all over the place. You try responding to 5 different people at once with each one arguing at you from a different direction with different reasons forcing you to repeat yourself only for them make a circular argument that isn't sound or valid.

Never loose?
You can't make an argument that they NEVER loose be the entire point/proof that they aren't over powered. Of course everyone looses sometimes. My point was that they win MOST of the time. Especially if they collected the right gear.

Leave it where you left it?
Why would I leave it there when you didn't even get the point I was making? You know for seemingly jumping around Voodoo and others seem to understand just fine...why is it you can only be happy by blaming the bugs instead of acknowledging that bucklers ARE over powered.

Now...to address this so call "jealousy" your referring to. I have a max buckler...I kick but with that buckler...I love playing as a buckler. I am not as you say "jealous". I know you people like to think of me as some disgruntled buck who doesn't know what he is talking about. But in reality I am speaking from a neutral position. As I have played WITH my buckler (not just against other bucklers...but with my own) and these ARE the things I have discovered first hand. People really struggle with poison purge cloak combo's. And I dont just play as a buckler either. Privy struggles against buckler, musket struggles, witches SOMETIMES manage to kill them before they can be killed...but even then they too struggle once a buckler get in past their mojo storms. And since resist doesn't stop poison they really struggle. I am not the biased one here. You guy just dont wanna loose your advantage.

Lol and again your closing statement shows an utter lack of understanding. Clearly the whole powers compounding upon one another argument went over your head. No mist by itself isn't over powered. But when combined WITH fog AND purge AND all those other things Its hard to stop.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Darth JT on Oct 10, 2015 wrote:
The problem here Thomas, is you are all over the place. You keep jumping around like a jumping bean trying to prove a point on a dull end. It just does not work.

Now, if you had proof that swashbucklers never ever lose because of over abundance of abilities swashbucklers have, then you would have a point, however, swashbucklers do lose in PVP, which totally dulls the points you are trying to imply are present.

You should have been wise to leave it where I left it, stating that there are bugs with talents that are a bit unfair, such as hide not always breaking because of absorb. That would be a fact with evidence to back up the statement, since swashbucklers have the most hides of any class.

However, where I think your jealousy of this class comes in, is the fact that swashbucklers have 2 powers that are not offered to other classes by gear, pets, or any other means. Fog being the first, and assassins mist, being the second. Granted, I would love to be able to get these powers on my buccaneer, and I am sure other classes would love to get reckless frenzy, such as privateer.

However, I do not find this to be such an overpowering detail. Swashbucklers are being defeated in the PVP arena. Fog is not as big of a factor as it used to be, Assassins mist is a great advantage, preventing heals, but it is not a make or break power to anyone that knows how to pvp.
Ok I want to add one more thing. I already addressed it but maybe I wasn't clear enough. Several times you said "swashbuckler loose" "swashbuckler can be defeated." And maybe that is my fault. I did not mean to imply that all a person ever has to do is pop onto a swashbuckler and they will win.

Of course if you pit a noob buckler against a skilled privy or clever buck they are going to loose. And yet noobs have better success rates with buckler than other schools. Using a privy or witch right takes a lot of skill and figuring things out. But no...I am talking about the top players. If pvp is a competion to see who can make it all the way...or rather who are the best players...then my arguments are centered around the idea that bucklers stand at the top. NO...not ALL bucklers. But rather the school representatives if you will are champions.

If, for example, you took the top ranking swashbuckler, the top privy, top buck etc...and have then fight each other in a championship...the top bucklers will win. ((Don't believe me? Get KI to sponsor one and get the top ranked of each school to compete and see for yourself.)) Is it cause they are the best...or...because they are good at strategy ON TOP of being an over powered school? I think its the latter and that feels wrong. ((And no I can't give you screen shots. I have asked for KI to give us data but they have so far said they are unable)) But this IS what I have observed from countless matches both in the spar chamber and ranked. From talking and listening to people within the PvP community. You should hear the bucklers who win most of their matches brag :p AND THEN say they need even more like turn the tide and more powerful weapons. The top bucklers rarely loose to any class. The ones that have farmed for all the right gear and have the right companions are unstoppable end of story. If you think other wise you haven't fought at the top.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 11, 2015 wrote:
Ok I want to add one more thing. I already addressed it but maybe I wasn't clear enough. Several times you said "swashbuckler loose" "swashbuckler can be defeated." And maybe that is my fault. I did not mean to imply that all a person ever has to do is pop onto a swashbuckler and they will win.

Of course if you pit a noob buckler against a skilled privy or clever buck they are going to loose. And yet noobs have better success rates with buckler than other schools. Using a privy or witch right takes a lot of skill and figuring things out. But no...I am talking about the top players. If pvp is a competion to see who can make it all the way...or rather who are the best players...then my arguments are centered around the idea that bucklers stand at the top. NO...not ALL bucklers. But rather the school representatives if you will are champions.

If, for example, you took the top ranking swashbuckler, the top privy, top buck etc...and have then fight each other in a championship...the top bucklers will win. ((Don't believe me? Get KI to sponsor one and get the top ranked of each school to compete and see for yourself.)) Is it cause they are the best...or...because they are good at strategy ON TOP of being an over powered school? I think its the latter and that feels wrong. ((And no I can't give you screen shots. I have asked for KI to give us data but they have so far said they are unable)) But this IS what I have observed from countless matches both in the spar chamber and ranked. From talking and listening to people within the PvP community. You should hear the bucklers who win most of their matches brag :p AND THEN say they need even more like turn the tide and more powerful weapons. The top bucklers rarely loose to any class. The ones that have farmed for all the right gear and have the right companions are unstoppable end of story. If you think other wise you haven't fought at the top.
If you did as much research and thought of strategies for other classes as you do for swashbucklers, you might not be saying or thinking the way you are. The main problem I see when I read your posts, is your lack of strategy. You simply state that swashbucklers have too many powers and abilities at their disposal to be sufficiently able to counter them, This is not a fact, this is your own personal opinion.

Here are a few facts for you, Hold the line reduces dodge from approaching enemies, Elusive 3 grants 50% more dodge when below half health, Turn the tide increases accuracy, dodge, and damage when health is below 50%, Buccaneers have attack cards that reduce accuracy, and vengeance can stun. Not to mention that Buccaneers can stack all kinds of damage reductions to barely take any damage from a swashbuckler and easily heal any damage done by a swashbuckler. If a swashbuckler uses his coop de gra or poison that prevents healing, a Buccaneer can simply hide, wait out and heal the damage. Not to mention that Buccaneers also have Blade storm 3 in conjunction with relentless and any good Buccaneer uses Axe of Minotaur Lords, so much for all them First Strike and Riposte.

Of course you will counter with fog and purge being in their arsenal, which they can only have 1 and it must present itself in the deck lineup or other powers must be discarded that might be needed later to get what is needed, same as any other class.

Now, you go on to talk about Witch Doctors and Musketeers, which have gotten a huge increase in power with Scratches new buff. Not to mention Witch Doctors have a Charm spell that can not be countered and no other class can get, along with mojo lightning, which for some reason people seem to pass up that power. Musketeers get bombs and traps that great at keeping swashbucklers at bay, especially now that their 1/2 damage is not of much use with old scratch buff increasing that damage.

If a tournament was held, I doubt swash would come in 1st everytime

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Darth JT on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
If you did as much research and thought of strategies for other classes as you do for swashbucklers, you might not be saying or thinking the way you are. The main problem I see when I read your posts, is your lack of strategy. You simply state that swashbucklers have too many powers and abilities at their disposal to be sufficiently able to counter them, This is not a fact, this is your own personal opinion.

Here are a few facts for you, Hold the line reduces dodge from approaching enemies, Elusive 3 grants 50% more dodge when below half health, Turn the tide increases accuracy, dodge, and damage when health is below 50%, Buccaneers have attack cards that reduce accuracy, and vengeance can stun. Not to mention that Buccaneers can stack all kinds of damage reductions to barely take any damage from a swashbuckler and easily heal any damage done by a swashbuckler. If a swashbuckler uses his coop de gra or poison that prevents healing, a Buccaneer can simply hide, wait out and heal the damage. Not to mention that Buccaneers also have Blade storm 3 in conjunction with relentless and any good Buccaneer uses Axe of Minotaur Lords, so much for all them First Strike and Riposte.

Of course you will counter with fog and purge being in their arsenal, which they can only have 1 and it must present itself in the deck lineup or other powers must be discarded that might be needed later to get what is needed, same as any other class.

Now, you go on to talk about Witch Doctors and Musketeers, which have gotten a huge increase in power with Scratches new buff. Not to mention Witch Doctors have a Charm spell that can not be countered and no other class can get, along with mojo lightning, which for some reason people seem to pass up that power. Musketeers get bombs and traps that great at keeping swashbucklers at bay, especially now that their 1/2 damage is not of much use with old scratch buff increasing that damage.

If a tournament was held, I doubt swash would come in 1st everytime
Have I really missed something as big as Charm being added back in, or is Darth unaware of the fact that that is banned? Honestly its possible, I haven't been reading the update notes enough. And the reason that witchdoctors don't use "mojo lightning" is that it doesn't jump enough and do enough damage to justify using it. Mojo storm does about twice the damage in a 3x3 area, making it usually a better option. Also, how does having Axe of the Minotaur Lords have anything to do with stopping First Strike and Riposte?

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
Darth JT on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
If you did as much research and thought of strategies for other classes as you do for swashbucklers, you might not be saying or thinking the way you are. The main problem I see when I read your posts, is your lack of strategy. You simply state that swashbucklers have too many powers and abilities at their disposal to be sufficiently able to counter them, This is not a fact, this is your own personal opinion.

Here are a few facts for you, Hold the line reduces dodge from approaching enemies, Elusive 3 grants 50% more dodge when below half health, Turn the tide increases accuracy, dodge, and damage when health is below 50%, Buccaneers have attack cards that reduce accuracy, and vengeance can stun. Not to mention that Buccaneers can stack all kinds of damage reductions to barely take any damage from a swashbuckler and easily heal any damage done by a swashbuckler. If a swashbuckler uses his coop de gra or poison that prevents healing, a Buccaneer can simply hide, wait out and heal the damage. Not to mention that Buccaneers also have Blade storm 3 in conjunction with relentless and any good Buccaneer uses Axe of Minotaur Lords, so much for all them First Strike and Riposte.

Of course you will counter with fog and purge being in their arsenal, which they can only have 1 and it must present itself in the deck lineup or other powers must be discarded that might be needed later to get what is needed, same as any other class.

Now, you go on to talk about Witch Doctors and Musketeers, which have gotten a huge increase in power with Scratches new buff. Not to mention Witch Doctors have a Charm spell that can not be countered and no other class can get, along with mojo lightning, which for some reason people seem to pass up that power. Musketeers get bombs and traps that great at keeping swashbucklers at bay, especially now that their 1/2 damage is not of much use with old scratch buff increasing that damage.

If a tournament was held, I doubt swash would come in 1st everytime
I agree with you, there are just as many things about the Bucc that makes them "OP" as the Swash and Privy. Can't say anything on Muskets as I've yet to encounter any good ones. Bucc has the most Talents in game, which can arguably give them an advantage over the Swash who has about 4 Hides, 3 Strikes and 3 Poisons (from class only not gear/pets). Once those are used up, we're pretty much up a creek without a paddle. Buccs are designed to rely more on charging into battle and going offense crazy without needing to rely on Powers whereas Privy tends to sit back and buff up a crap ton while giving them balanced defensive stats.

Your points were well made as well, Turn The Tide 3 along with Hold The Line 3 is a seriously brutal combo; reducing enemy dodge while having a boost in Acc, Dodge and Damage. Couple that with Vengeance Strike 3 and it turns into a suicide mission if you go charging in without any Powers. Lets not forget their Blocks which further boosts their defenses (and the fact that Swashes have the lowest accuracy in game) and Reckless Frenzy can decimate if done right. Privy can be classified as OP with all their heals, buffs and ranged AoEs so in reality the game is balanced fine as is, it's sounding more to me like his playstyle is what's hindering him more than the classes. I, for one, used to love charging in as a Swash and going nuts with attacks without a care in the world for strategy (except for keeping Companions alive) until I got to about Mooshu, then I learned real quick how easily that'll get me killed. Even when I started using a Hide and going in to Assassin a boss I learned the steep disadvantages of that tactic alone. When I played as a Bucc and had to fight a lot of annoying Swash Samoorai I learned to take them out first, immediately, which usually required the use of a power or two; in the end it was worth it and made everything else easier (I'm aware PvP is not PvE but the concept remains the same, I believe).

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
Have I really missed something as big as Charm being added back in, or is Darth unaware of the fact that that is banned? Honestly its possible, I haven't been reading the update notes enough. And the reason that witchdoctors don't use "mojo lightning" is that it doesn't jump enough and do enough damage to justify using it. Mojo storm does about twice the damage in a 3x3 area, making it usually a better option. Also, how does having Axe of the Minotaur Lords have anything to do with stopping First Strike and Riposte?
Thank you voodoo. Half his post is ridiculous...but apparently I have to spell it out. But thanks for making it so I am not the only one seeing all the flaws.