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The REAL problem with swashbucklers

AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 20, 2015 wrote:
This is assuming
a)The buckler is alive to repeat the pattern 3 times
b)The buccaneer forgot what shields were
c)The buccaneer's companions are somewhere in lala land.
I already addressed this but ill do it again.

a) the bucklers high dodge ontop of the shield and a boost from toro gives the buckler plenty of time to cloak again and repeat the process. A buck "might" do decent damage but we miss a lot as well. I compare us to babe ruth. Sure we might have then record for damage...but we also have the highest miss record too :P

b) The buccaneer shields do squat against magic damage of poison or bleeding. Hence the 4000 some odd unstoppable damage. Since bucks have no magic resist either on top of everything else.

c) The companions are likely dead from the black fog swarm that swept over them. I could try to do first strike companions but even that doesn't work if they bring someone like nausica and cloak her as well. And with all the boosts that flan and the pirate has been giving each other its pretty much death to all the companions and now becomes a one on 4 match ON TOP of the pattern I address in this thread. :)

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 20, 2015 wrote:
Pierce at most is 30% and still leaves a buccaneer with an armor advantage.
Except all that armor does nothing against the plethora of magic damage which as you might recall was the focus of this post. So the armor is reduced AND they have nothing to stop the magic stuff. Hence the issue of mixed damage. No one else can do this. all the others have to choose between magic damage or physical. My point being...there is no way to stop a buckler.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 20, 2015 wrote:
If
-You stay in purge range
-You don't spread out

Also remember a swash that is purging is also denying himself shields and buffs.

In conclusion I do not believe the class with the most limits on their powers should gain even more limits especially since the consensus among top players(and the developer) is that buccaneer is the top tier class- not swashbuckler.
The most limits? Ha you must be joking. Bucklers have the greatest advantages. As for destroying buffs that is easy to fix. All a buck as to do is purge before putting up his shield (so during round 3) while keeping his companions away. That still gives him time to put up a shield and get buffed by flan before the fog onslaught begins.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 20, 2015 wrote:
Ok so lets analyze your scenario as presented

Round 1- Cloak
Round 2-Critical Buff(4 cloak rounds left)
Round 3-Poison(3 cloak rounds left)- This I have an issue with because it assumes the swash is in range to poison your team in one round. How did a swash get close enough to reach a bucc team without being demolished by the charges?
Round 4-Single Shield(2 cloak rounds left)
Round 5-Assassin strike(Exposed)

In the mean time the swash is doing all this why didn't you-
a)Set up a barricade?
b)Shield?
c)Spread out?
d)Hide yourself?

Here's a counter using your round system:
Round 1- Swash Cloak's- you move to barricade position
Round 2- Swash Crit buffs- you set a barricade
Round 3-Poison- you hide
Round 4- Single Shield- you Single Shield
Round 5-Swash can't assassin anyone due to barricade and hide.
Also if forgot to mention there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway. So even if a pirate can hide its not really a viable option. Unless your suggesting they find even more gear to try and compensate for their lack. Haha but a pirate is already loaded up with gear trying to counter act all the other angles a buckler can use to attack from. The point being a buckler has so many different ways to attack its impossible to address them all. Basically a buckler has an unstoppable offense...if they combine that with some defensive gear and they will have effectively removed every weakness they have. Game over.

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
Maybe they could make poison damage physical?

I dont think it would make a great difference for bucklers...

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
Also if forgot to mention there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway. So even if a pirate can hide its not really a viable option. Unless your suggesting they find even more gear to try and compensate for their lack. Haha but a pirate is already loaded up with gear trying to counter act all the other angles a buckler can use to attack from. The point being a buckler has so many different ways to attack its impossible to address them all. Basically a buckler has an unstoppable offense...if they combine that with some defensive gear and they will have effectively removed every weakness they have. Game over.
"...there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway."
Walk in Darkness is available to all class through gear. Yes, it's 5 rounds of hide.
We have to load up on gear also if we want those necessary shields.
What is our variety of attacks? It's either physical or poison. That's not a variety.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Silver Angel on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Maybe they could make poison damage physical?

I dont think it would make a great difference for bucklers...
OH! I hadn't even considered that option! Yeah your right. Making poison physical damage would also be an acceptable fix! Props to Silver Angel for giving a reasonable counter suggestion. That way they could still poison from the shadows but armor would work better! Its their mix damage combo that is what is truly lethal. Combined with the fact they get to stay hidden. So yes if they have it remove the hidden OR switch it to physical damage then either would be perfect. **Plz make a mental note of this Miss Anne and Mr Ratbeard** We have now given you 2 great compromises. Because so far you can not beat a skilled buckler unless you get super lucky.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
"...there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway."
Walk in Darkness is available to all class through gear. Yes, it's 5 rounds of hide.
We have to load up on gear also if we want those necessary shields.
What is our variety of attacks? It's either physical or poison. That's not a variety.
Yes yes gear again. Idk if you have kept track but its kinda hard to have the right gear for every angle a buckler can attack from. And then it leaves you wide open to other schools. There isnt enough gear to compensate for a swashbucklers over powered nature. End of story.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
"...there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway."
Walk in Darkness is available to all class through gear. Yes, it's 5 rounds of hide.
We have to load up on gear also if we want those necessary shields.
What is our variety of attacks? It's either physical or poison. That's not a variety.
Oh brother. Again you didnt read the entire post before replying. Because I talked about gear in the SAME POST where you replied and mentioned gear as a solution. Anecorbie If you want to disagree with me thats is perfectly fine, but please stop making comments without reading the entire thing and think a little first. Your making me repeat myself a lot by filling up the thread with useless comments. This thread is SUPPOSED to be for those of us who want to address the issue. Like Silver Angel above who gave a perfectly acceptable counter option to my idea.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
I guess Ill talk about yours in order you posted them. First of all its kind of hard to rush anyone when bucklers just use fog. I did say I wasn't complaining about fog but you can't ignore it either. So now my companions are left to sit there twiddling our thumbs for 4 rounds while the buckler gets all set up.

Second most bucks don't have a barricade. That strategy is great for muskets and witches but most bucklers and bucks I have seen don't have those cause they need other stuff. Unless your suggesting that i leave myself open to all the other schools by catering every aspect of my being to just countering bucklers.

Another issue is hide doesn't do much against a buckler. You can't hit them with hide because they all have first strike 3. AND they can still poison you while you are hidden without exposing themselves

Finally by the time they do hit and expose themselves they are already shielded and taken the advantage with the double hit and all the DoT stuff thats been going on this whole time.
First of all its kind of hard to rush anyone when bucklers just use fog.

-You stated in your original assertion that a swash can reach you to poison you in only one round. In order for the swash to do so while also doing all the things you stipulated he would have to position himself in range of your buccaneer before casting fog.

Second most bucks don't have a barricade. That strategy is great for muskets and witches but most bucklers and bucks I have seen don't have those cause they need other stuff. Unless your suggesting that i leave myself open to all the other schools by catering every aspect of my being to just countering bucklers.

-So once again it is a case of you choosing not to utilize the counters available. I have barricade trained on my swash and I use it primarily against non-swashbuckler classes so no it does not inhibit my ability to fight other classes. Did I have to make sacrifices to train barricade?-Yes. However, you have to decide if it is worth it to you or not, a crucial aspect of PvP.

Another issue is hide doesn't do much against a buckler. You can't hit them with hide because they all have first strike 3.

-Hide completely protects you from a buckler and his fogged companion's 2x attacks and allows you to deal 2x retaliative damage against at least one unit. That's doing a lot imo.

Finally by the time they do hit and expose themselves they are already shielded and taken the advantage with the double hit and all the DoT stuff thats been going on this whole time.

By the time they do hit you have had ample opportunity to defend yourself as I have shown you with a literal play by play counter to the exact strategy you provided.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Silver Angel on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Maybe they could make poison damage physical?

I dont think it would make a great difference for bucklers...
Wow in fact do you even realize how perfect this suggestion is?! That dual magic/physical combo of bucklers on top of being able to stay hidden is what makes them so dangerous. My suggestion was to make it remove hidden. But this option is possibly even more viable.

Ok so changing poison to physical damage is a wonderful change with a TRIPLE bonus!

Here they are:
1) People with armor and or buck type buffs can be less open to the mixed physical and magic damage combo that bucklers do. And bucks arent they only once who suffer from this. The pet card with armor is a buck type one. And the witch eyepatch with armor is buck oriented as well. Fact is KI makes the buck shields far more common then the privy ones.

2) Bucklers also get a benefit. The really smart bucklers have realized that magic power effects their poison power and bleeding power and have been smart enough to train in vadima's school to get the mojo boosts. But now they can use those extra 4 points to learn something else! They could get the extra charge and shield from buck school or barricade and trap from musket school. So this doesn't just punish bucklers it more of a trade!

3) KI gets more money! :D This will cause the die hard players to pay more money again to reset their buckler pirates. And after all the more money KI gets the further the game can progress! We might even get a new world *crosses fingers*

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Silver Angel on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Maybe they could make poison damage physical?

I dont think it would make a great difference for bucklers...
*Gives Silver Angel more props...and a cookie*

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
Ok so its not 125 x 2 its 250 x 2. AND bleeding isn't effected by buck shields at all. And neither is poison. As for my companions...well I could cloak at which point they are dead because by the time a buckler comes out of fog he has hit mega with all 4 companions. Basically fog ensures that either I die from a 4 way hit...or...all my companions die as i try to protect myself. So my companions CANT hit really. Because ontop of the poison and bleeding doing their work I am trying to keep up with cloaked flan, nauisica, toro...AND the pirate ontop of everything else.

So really its mixed damage ontop of fog. Everyone else is complaining about fog so I choose poison. But that doesn't mean its not an issue.

Again not all countermeasures apply to everyone.

Basically the entire point of this thread is that bucklers have too many different types of weapons. The can cloak the whole team, do mixed damage, poison over time without ruining cloak, remove healing chances with assassin mist, double the damage of their hits from all the hidden. Like how many different types of weaponized benefits does one school really need? All I am trying to do is get KI to limit ONE of them.
Ok so its not 125 x 2 its 250 x 2. AND bleeding isn't effected by buck shields at all

-Which is why you use fortress which protects from all types of damage. I stated in my previous post that the buccaneer used fortress which indeed makes it 125*2

As for my companions...well I could cloak at which point they are dead because by the time a buckler comes out of fog he has hit mega with all 4 companions.

-Or you can go ahead and use barricade and spare your companions.

Again not all countermeasures apply to everyone.

-Yes they do, all countermeasures are equally available to all players. Whether they choose to utilize them is another story entirely.

Basically the entire point of this thread is that bucklers have too many different types of weapons.

-Wait you mean to tell me the class that specializes in dealing damage has many ways to deal damage? Whoa. I suppose the class that specializes in defending and buffing has too many different ways to shield and buff and the class that specializes in charges has too many ways to charge and chain.

All I am trying to do is get KI to limit ONE of them.

-Each and every one of a swashbuckler's weapons have built in limits to them.

Hide- Ends early compared to other buffs, removed by a pet talent, removed by multiple epic talents, removed when hitting.

Bleeding- Can't Critical, can't stack

Poison- Can't stack

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
I already addressed this but ill do it again.

a) the bucklers high dodge ontop of the shield and a boost from toro gives the buckler plenty of time to cloak again and repeat the process. A buck "might" do decent damage but we miss a lot as well. I compare us to babe ruth. Sure we might have then record for damage...but we also have the highest miss record too :P

b) The buccaneer shields do squat against magic damage of poison or bleeding. Hence the 4000 some odd unstoppable damage. Since bucks have no magic resist either on top of everything else.

c) The companions are likely dead from the black fog swarm that swept over them. I could try to do first strike companions but even that doesn't work if they bring someone like nausica and cloak her as well. And with all the boosts that flan and the pirate has been giving each other its pretty much death to all the companions and now becomes a one on 4 match ON TOP of the pattern I address in this thread. :)
a) the bucklers high dodge ontop of the shield and a boost from toro gives the buckler plenty of time to cloak again and repeat the process.

-purge
-guaranteed hits and powers
-bladestorm

b) The buccaneer shields do squat against magic damage of poison or bleeding

-Valor's Fortress

c) The companions are likely dead from the black fog swarm that swept over them.

-Barricade
-Scent
-Turn the Tide 2/3

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
Except all that armor does nothing against the plethora of magic damage which as you might recall was the focus of this post. So the armor is reduced AND they have nothing to stop the magic stuff. Hence the issue of mixed damage. No one else can do this. all the others have to choose between magic damage or physical. My point being...there is no way to stop a buckler.
Valors fortress is a thing. No way to stop a buckler? Hmm- Let's take a look at undefeated Summer Champion Buccaneer: Champ Bucc

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
The most limits? Ha you must be joking. Bucklers have the greatest advantages. As for destroying buffs that is easy to fix. All a buck as to do is purge before putting up his shield (so during round 3) while keeping his companions away. That still gives him time to put up a shield and get buffed by flan before the fog onslaught begins.
Yes the most limits. Every single one of a swashbicklers defining characteristics has built in limits.

Hide-Expires end of users turn rather than end of round, removed by 3 epic talents, removed by pet talents.

Poison-Cannot Stack

Bleeding- Cannot Critical, cannot stack.

All a buck as to do is purge before putting up his shield (so during round 3)

-Sure, if you don't move away.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
Also if forgot to mention there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway. So even if a pirate can hide its not really a viable option. Unless your suggesting they find even more gear to try and compensate for their lack. Haha but a pirate is already loaded up with gear trying to counter act all the other angles a buckler can use to attack from. The point being a buckler has so many different ways to attack its impossible to address them all. Basically a buckler has an unstoppable offense...if they combine that with some defensive gear and they will have effectively removed every weakness they have. Game over.
Many many pieces of gear come with Walk in Darkness. Walk in Darkness is a great defensive power that is useful against many classes so I don't know why you would have trouble finding a spot for it. Heck if you have Nausica you already have arguably the best Walk in Darkness boots in the game which gives the card and multiple valuable stat buffs. Simply because you choose not to counter a bucklers offense does not make it unstoppable.

Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
"...there is no 5 round hide for pirates to use anyway."
Walk in Darkness is available to all class through gear.

I have to agree with Anecorbie here. Walk in darkness is available to us on various gear equipment.

Here are some of them (click on the item to see more detailed info about it):

Phule's Mask

Gladiator's Gaiters

Blue Anemone Gi

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Poison a problem? Even on my Buck, where I usually used fortress on companions and Levy on myself, the unshielded poisons were never a problem. I will have to agree with Eric here and say that this poison argument is silly. It is perhaps one of the most balanced line of powers the Swashbuckler class has.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Oh brother. Again you didnt read the entire post before replying. Because I talked about gear in the SAME POST where you replied and mentioned gear as a solution. Anecorbie If you want to disagree with me thats is perfectly fine, but please stop making comments without reading the entire thing and think a little first. Your making me repeat myself a lot by filling up the thread with useless comments. This thread is SUPPOSED to be for those of us who want to address the issue. Like Silver Angel above who gave a perfectly acceptable counter option to my idea.
I did read the entire thing, my comment below " we have to load up on gear also if we want those necessary shields"
This means that every class must have a few special pieces to meet the challenge from other classes. You can't enter PVP with basic "It does fine in PVE gear"
You know exactly what you'll face when you're matched with certain classes, with experience you learn their basic strategies. This experience should tell you certain pieces of gear can be used for a majority of classes, i.e. shields and buffs or debuffs.
If you don't want to equip gear that gives you a hide, that's fine; but don't complain about hidden attacks if you don't take simple precautions.
I gave up a stat boost to dodge to gain Valor's Fort, my pet gives me Kraken's if I can have these basic defenses, so can you.
In fact all my pirates regardless of class have trained WIS and have WID from gear.
Silver Angel is wrong Poison can't be made a physical attack because we don't use a weapon to do it.
Allow us to disagree and present our counter arguments. If you don't like people disagreeing with you; don't post.
You could at the very least be more polite in your comments.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
I did read the entire thing, my comment below " we have to load up on gear also if we want those necessary shields"
This means that every class must have a few special pieces to meet the challenge from other classes. You can't enter PVP with basic "It does fine in PVE gear"
You know exactly what you'll face when you're matched with certain classes, with experience you learn their basic strategies. This experience should tell you certain pieces of gear can be used for a majority of classes, i.e. shields and buffs or debuffs.
If you don't want to equip gear that gives you a hide, that's fine; but don't complain about hidden attacks if you don't take simple precautions.
I gave up a stat boost to dodge to gain Valor's Fort, my pet gives me Kraken's if I can have these basic defenses, so can you.
In fact all my pirates regardless of class have trained WIS and have WID from gear.
Silver Angel is wrong Poison can't be made a physical attack because we don't use a weapon to do it.
Allow us to disagree and present our counter arguments. If you don't like people disagreeing with you; don't post.
You could at the very least be more polite in your comments.
Moves that do not require a weapon but do physical damage:
Gunnery
Artillery
The Big Guns
Mojo Blade
Mojo Reaver
Hurl Knives
Hurl Blades
There may be more, these are just the ones off the top of my head

However, I am not really a fan of poison being based off of armor and not resist, we don't need to make PvP any harder for witches atm, plus, it really doesn't make much sense.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, what happens if you use the curse effect on Chok C'ab or whatever his name is that is in the Pyramid of Fire? Can he still heal?

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Voodoo Cornelius on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Moves that do not require a weapon but do physical damage:
Gunnery
Artillery
The Big Guns
Mojo Blade
Mojo Reaver
Hurl Knives
Hurl Blades
There may be more, these are just the ones off the top of my head

However, I am not really a fan of poison being based off of armor and not resist, we don't need to make PvP any harder for witches atm, plus, it really doesn't make much sense.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, what happens if you use the curse effect on Chok C'ab or whatever his name is that is in the Pyramid of Fire? Can he still heal?
I've never thought of attacking him with shroud, as the task is to destroy the statue; however, that's a valid question and one I may investigate.
Thanks for pointing out the other physical, non-weapon attacks, but Hurl Knives/Blades weapons appear in my hands when I use that power, so there is an obvious weapon in that case.
Mojo Blade/Reaver uses a magical version of a weapon ( a sword appears in your hands or surrounds you )
As to the Gunnery, Artillery, Big Guns, well, those bombs come from somewhere, right?
So what weapon do you see me use to cast poison?

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Voodoo Cornelius on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Moves that do not require a weapon but do physical damage:
Gunnery
Artillery
The Big Guns
Mojo Blade
Mojo Reaver
Hurl Knives
Hurl Blades
There may be more, these are just the ones off the top of my head

However, I am not really a fan of poison being based off of armor and not resist, we don't need to make PvP any harder for witches atm, plus, it really doesn't make much sense.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, what happens if you use the curse effect on Chok C'ab or whatever his name is that is in the Pyramid of Fire? Can he still heal?
Yes, just tested this, Chok A'Kab can heal while under a curse!

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
Well that was just a suggestion...

Now then, if poison/bleed remains magical... what happens when you use Old Scratch buffs everyone complain about on privy hmm? :)

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
I've never thought of attacking him with shroud, as the task is to destroy the statue; however, that's a valid question and one I may investigate.
Thanks for pointing out the other physical, non-weapon attacks, but Hurl Knives/Blades weapons appear in my hands when I use that power, so there is an obvious weapon in that case.
Mojo Blade/Reaver uses a magical version of a weapon ( a sword appears in your hands or surrounds you )
As to the Gunnery, Artillery, Big Guns, well, those bombs come from somewhere, right?
So what weapon do you see me use to cast poison?
I don't know? Fertilizer? Now that I think about it, what actually causes those plants to randomly grow out of any surface?

Also, on the other end of this, the poison making magical damage doesn't really make sense. By that sense shouldn't dispel magic get rid of poison? Ratbeard mentioned somewhere that none of the swashbuckler powers are magic.