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The REAL problem with swashbucklers

AuthorMessage
Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Silver Angel on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Well that was just a suggestion...

Now then, if poison/bleed remains magical... what happens when you use Old Scratch buffs everyone complain about on privy hmm? :)
Poison is actually classed as its own category of ongoing damage.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
First of all its kind of hard to rush anyone when bucklers just use fog.

-You stated in your original assertion that a swash can reach you to poison you in only one round. In order for the swash to do so while also doing all the things you stipulated he would have to position himself in range of your buccaneer before casting fog.

Second most bucks don't have a barricade. That strategy is great for muskets and witches but most bucklers and bucks I have seen don't have those cause they need other stuff. Unless your suggesting that i leave myself open to all the other schools by catering every aspect of my being to just countering bucklers.

-So once again it is a case of you choosing not to utilize the counters available. I have barricade trained on my swash and I use it primarily against non-swashbuckler classes so no it does not inhibit my ability to fight other classes. Did I have to make sacrifices to train barricade?-Yes. However, you have to decide if it is worth it to you or not, a crucial aspect of PvP.

Another issue is hide doesn't do much against a buckler. You can't hit them with hide because they all have first strike 3.

-Hide completely protects you from a buckler and his fogged companion's 2x attacks and allows you to deal 2x retaliative damage against at least one unit. That's doing a lot imo.

Finally by the time they do hit and expose themselves they are already shielded and taken the advantage with the double hit and all the DoT stuff thats been going on this whole time.

By the time they do hit you have had ample opportunity to defend yourself as I have shown you with a literal play by play counter to the exact strategy you provided.
Ok your first point has some merit. Its true that the buckler might not be able to do the full set of the pattern I mentioned. Usually in the first pattern the critical boost is eliminated so they have time to move. So far this is the only valid argument I have seen bucklers make. ((valid is a logical term meaning there are no fallacies or wrong assumptions))

But then your post digresses especially towards the end. Hide does NOT completely protect the buck NOR does he get the chance to x2 hit.
1) The buckler can still happily poison through my own cloak AND the throwing knives moves and spin moves are considered physical attacks so they are boosted by cloak. In fact a bucklers favorite move when a buck counter cloaks as you mentioned is to purge the pirate then nail them hard before they can put their shields back up. This works especially well as a finishing move.
2) A buck or anyone but a musket or other buckler i guess CAN NOT benefit from the double hit. First strike 3 removes the cloak and returns the move to normal damage. Which was my point if you had read things properly.

And if you had listened you would have know there isnt ample time to defend yourself because of the mixed damage problem. Bucks shields dont block magic damage and its impossible to carry enough forts especially when half of them are purged away. So the entire point of this entire article was the issue of poison and the mixed physical and magical damage issue.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Ok so its not 125 x 2 its 250 x 2. AND bleeding isn't effected by buck shields at all

-Which is why you use fortress which protects from all types of damage. I stated in my previous post that the buccaneer used fortress which indeed makes it 125*2

As for my companions...well I could cloak at which point they are dead because by the time a buckler comes out of fog he has hit mega with all 4 companions.

-Or you can go ahead and use barricade and spare your companions.

Again not all countermeasures apply to everyone.

-Yes they do, all countermeasures are equally available to all players. Whether they choose to utilize them is another story entirely.

Basically the entire point of this thread is that bucklers have too many different types of weapons.

-Wait you mean to tell me the class that specializes in dealing damage has many ways to deal damage? Whoa. I suppose the class that specializes in defending and buffing has too many different ways to shield and buff and the class that specializes in charges has too many ways to charge and chain.

All I am trying to do is get KI to limit ONE of them.

-Each and every one of a swashbuckler's weapons have built in limits to them.

Hide- Ends early compared to other buffs, removed by a pet talent, removed by multiple epic talents, removed when hitting.

Bleeding- Can't Critical, can't stack

Poison- Can't stack
Ok Its sad if everyone has to train in one move just so we can all adress the over powered buckler class. That is just lame. Yes its true I could get barricade...but I feel each persons school should be relatively balanced without drastic efforts to counter one class.

Ha that is my point...the school that specializes in shields...wait...their shields dont do ANYTHING to stop the magic damage. Huh...thats odd. Guess they arent so special after all. Hence the reason poison should be changed to physical damage or have it remove the cloak :3 Its over powered. It is BYPASSING everyone elses powers. Cloak does as well. Because it lasts 5 rounds bucklers sit and wait out my shields AND the charge de-buff. See what I mean. They have effectively eliminated ALL of the buck's benefits of their class. Lol without even tapping into special gear cloths yet. Add in purge and their own sets of armor. And by by bucks. You have no hope. Yet bucklers are the ones with the loudest voice on here about bucks being OP....give me a break.

But bleeding and poison and corrupt flames all CAN stack. And its all magical damage! I am out of fort shields cause you purged and/or waited all of mine out. And I am sustaining as I mentioned massive amounts of damage without a thing i can do about it.

Another possible de-buff that KI might consider is shortening the time of cloak. But i know people have suggested this one. So Ill leave it at that

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
a) the bucklers high dodge ontop of the shield and a boost from toro gives the buckler plenty of time to cloak again and repeat the process.

-purge
-guaranteed hits and powers
-bladestorm

b) The buccaneer shields do squat against magic damage of poison or bleeding

-Valor's Fortress

c) The companions are likely dead from the black fog swarm that swept over them.

-Barricade
-Scent
-Turn the Tide 2/3
-Use
-Complete
-Sentences

I have no idea what your even saying. But read my last post if you still think a buck can shield himself. The fact is a buckler can undo a buck on his cloak alone since they last 5 rounds.

Bucks carying purge? Haha you want us to do your job for you? We dont have enough cloak to throw them away assuming our gear has any at all. And by having a purge amulet...oh...thats one less valor fortress. Hehe if bucks had all the gear you and anecorbie are suggesting we would have 2 amulets 3 hats 2 rings and a couple of totems...just to compensate for the over powered nature of bucklers.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
Yes the most limits. Every single one of a swashbicklers defining characteristics has built in limits.

Hide-Expires end of users turn rather than end of round, removed by 3 epic talents, removed by pet talents.

Poison-Cannot Stack

Bleeding- Cannot Critical, cannot stack.

All a buck as to do is purge before putting up his shield (so during round 3)

-Sure, if you don't move away.
Hmm and yet...the first person to reach champion in the second season is...a buckler. The highest number of champions in last season is...buckler school. Hmm for being so limited you guys seem to have the highest record and stats! Shocking. Does anyone else see the pardox in the bucklers' arguments? Every time i have pointed this out the bucklers have nothing to say to it. They sort of mumble something about not dodging enough or not having enough damage. Why you think you should have more stuff and not be de-buffed when your at the top of the game is ridiculous.

Hehe and yeah a lot of my buckler matches has me running around like a chicken with my head cut off. Because my shields are all but usless to a patient buckler. Not really the tank you make us out to be are we.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Voodoo Cornelius on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Moves that do not require a weapon but do physical damage:
Gunnery
Artillery
The Big Guns
Mojo Blade
Mojo Reaver
Hurl Knives
Hurl Blades
There may be more, these are just the ones off the top of my head

However, I am not really a fan of poison being based off of armor and not resist, we don't need to make PvP any harder for witches atm, plus, it really doesn't make much sense.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, what happens if you use the curse effect on Chok C'ab or whatever his name is that is in the Pyramid of Fire? Can he still heal?
Oh I didnt think about that. That would make it harder on witches. But I dont see why you guys are limited to magical damage and others only to phsyical when bucklers get both. The fact is they slip through EVERYONES defense...because of that dual damage. They are like an unstoppable spear. If you build up armor you leave yourself wide open to the magic. And if you build up resist your wide open to the physical.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Silver Angel on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Well that was just a suggestion...

Now then, if poison/bleed remains magical... what happens when you use Old Scratch buffs everyone complain about on privy hmm? :)
Oh my! A buckler using Scratch and then poisoning! And once he is fixed. That will be 1900 damage BEFORE critical. Oh man...once scratch is fixed everyone is dead! That will make this entire post all the more valid! And whats worse is he can buff up from the shadows! And then poison from the shadow! And after the poison has activated purge comes! There is no hope. Please KI fix this ASAP before you create an unstoppable monster. ((Though...it might be too late already :p))

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Silver Angel on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Well that was just a suggestion...

Now then, if poison/bleed remains magical... what happens when you use Old Scratch buffs everyone complain about on privy hmm? :)
Something to check, indeed, it may even help my one rank of spooky.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Voodoo Cornelius on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
I don't know? Fertilizer? Now that I think about it, what actually causes those plants to randomly grow out of any surface?

Also, on the other end of this, the poison making magical damage doesn't really make sense. By that sense shouldn't dispel magic get rid of poison? Ratbeard mentioned somewhere that none of the swashbuckler powers are magic.
I have developed a theory about this and I believe that SBs are actually using a reactive chemical. When it's exposed to air, this causes the roses to bloom and then die out ( no soil ).Since I'm using that poison ability, I've developed an immunity, which explains why I don't get poisoned too ( whoever heard of a 'selective' poison? )
Or maybe I take an antidote before I enter battle, either way I'm protected.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Ok your first point has some merit. Its true that the buckler might not be able to do the full set of the pattern I mentioned. Usually in the first pattern the critical boost is eliminated so they have time to move. So far this is the only valid argument I have seen bucklers make. ((valid is a logical term meaning there are no fallacies or wrong assumptions))

But then your post digresses especially towards the end. Hide does NOT completely protect the buck NOR does he get the chance to x2 hit.
1) The buckler can still happily poison through my own cloak AND the throwing knives moves and spin moves are considered physical attacks so they are boosted by cloak. In fact a bucklers favorite move when a buck counter cloaks as you mentioned is to purge the pirate then nail them hard before they can put their shields back up. This works especially well as a finishing move.
2) A buck or anyone but a musket or other buckler i guess CAN NOT benefit from the double hit. First strike 3 removes the cloak and returns the move to normal damage. Which was my point if you had read things properly.

And if you had listened you would have know there isnt ample time to defend yourself because of the mixed damage problem. Bucks shields dont block magic damage and its impossible to carry enough forts especially when half of them are purged away. So the entire point of this entire article was the issue of poison and the mixed physical and magical damage issue.
But then your post digresses especially towards the end. Hide does NOT completely protect the buck NOR does he get the chance to x2 hit.

-Correct it protects them from the swashbuckler's most dangerous x2 moves. Both the knives and the spin moves deal piddling damage in comparison. If you force a swash to use those rather than an assassins it seems you're winning.

A buck or anyone but a musket or other buckler i guess CAN NOT benefit from the double hit.

-Unless the buck bought an entire team of fs 3 units then you can always benefit from the x2 damage given by hide.

And if you had listened you would have know there isn't ample time to defend yourself because of the mixed damage problem.

-I literally gave you a play by play example that demonstrated exactly how you have enough time to counter.

So the entire point of this entire article was the issue of poison and the mixed physical and magical damage issue.

-An issue that I and many others don't see

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Ok Its sad if everyone has to train in one move just so we can all adress the over powered buckler class. That is just lame. Yes its true I could get barricade...but I feel each persons school should be relatively balanced without drastic efforts to counter one class.

Ha that is my point...the school that specializes in shields...wait...their shields dont do ANYTHING to stop the magic damage. Huh...thats odd. Guess they arent so special after all. Hence the reason poison should be changed to physical damage or have it remove the cloak :3 Its over powered. It is BYPASSING everyone elses powers. Cloak does as well. Because it lasts 5 rounds bucklers sit and wait out my shields AND the charge de-buff. See what I mean. They have effectively eliminated ALL of the buck's benefits of their class. Lol without even tapping into special gear cloths yet. Add in purge and their own sets of armor. And by by bucks. You have no hope. Yet bucklers are the ones with the loudest voice on here about bucks being OP....give me a break.

But bleeding and poison and corrupt flames all CAN stack. And its all magical damage! I am out of fort shields cause you purged and/or waited all of mine out. And I am sustaining as I mentioned massive amounts of damage without a thing i can do about it.

Another possible de-buff that KI might consider is shortening the time of cloak. But i know people have suggested this one. So Ill leave it at that
Ok Its sad if everyone has to train in one move just so we can all address the over powered buckler class. That is just lame.

-What is really sad i you are given a counter that is useful against many classes and you still refuse to train it. Do you know how useful barricade is going to be once old scratch is fixed and witches have 1.2k mojo storm potential? Barricade is no more drastic than elusive, spooky 2 etc.

Ha that is my point...the school that specializes in shields...wait...their shields dont do ANYTHING to stop the magic damage.

-The school that specializes in shields and buffs is privateer-and their shields do protect from every type of damage. As for poison doing physical damage- you do realize that even if it does get changed to physical damage your bucc shields will still have no effect as they only protect from weapon damage. As for waiting out shields with hide: A bucc can carry just as many shields as a swash can hide and their shields last longer. As for buccs being helpless- I once again reference: Undefeated Champion Bucc or how about Technomage's champion bucc?. Cloak already has enough counters as is ty very much.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
-Use
-Complete
-Sentences

I have no idea what your even saying. But read my last post if you still think a buck can shield himself. The fact is a buckler can undo a buck on his cloak alone since they last 5 rounds.

Bucks carying purge? Haha you want us to do your job for you? We dont have enough cloak to throw them away assuming our gear has any at all. And by having a purge amulet...oh...thats one less valor fortress. Hehe if bucks had all the gear you and anecorbie are suggesting we would have 2 amulets 3 hats 2 rings and a couple of totems...just to compensate for the over powered nature of bucklers.
But read my last post if you still think a buck can shield himself. The fact is a buckler can undo a buck on his cloak alone since they last 5 rounds.

-Hmm, considering that buccs shields last longer than swashbuckler's hide and that bucc can carry as many a swash has hides....ok

Bucks carying purge? Haha you want us to do your job for you? We dont have enough cloak to throw them away assuming our gear has any at all. And by having a purge amulet...oh...thats one less valor fortress. Hehe if bucks had all the gear you and anecorbie are suggesting we would have 2 amulets 3 hats 2 rings and a couple of totems...just to compensate for the over powered nature of bucklers.

-I'll just refer you to technomages guide for the "impossible" set-up and for how to correctly use purge on a bucc.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Hmm and yet...the first person to reach champion in the second season is...a buckler. The highest number of champions in last season is...buckler school. Hmm for being so limited you guys seem to have the highest record and stats! Shocking. Does anyone else see the pardox in the bucklers' arguments? Every time i have pointed this out the bucklers have nothing to say to it. They sort of mumble something about not dodging enough or not having enough damage. Why you think you should have more stuff and not be de-buffed when your at the top of the game is ridiculous.

Hehe and yeah a lot of my buckler matches has me running around like a chicken with my head cut off. Because my shields are all but usless to a patient buckler. Not really the tank you make us out to be are we.
Hmm and yet...the first person to reach champion in the second season is...a buckler. The highest number of champions in last season is...buckler school.

-Ah, so the most popular school having the most number of champs means OP...and the first person to reach champ determines which school is OP. I have sure learned a lot today lol.

Because my shields are all but usless to a patient buckler. Not really the tank you make us out to be are we.

-Oh your shields are useless? Another news flash.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
anecorbie on Sep 23, 2015 wrote:
Something to check, indeed, it may even help my one rank of spooky.
Yep increased spell power increases poison.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
But then your post digresses especially towards the end. Hide does NOT completely protect the buck NOR does he get the chance to x2 hit.

-Correct it protects them from the swashbuckler's most dangerous x2 moves. Both the knives and the spin moves deal piddling damage in comparison. If you force a swash to use those rather than an assassins it seems you're winning.

A buck or anyone but a musket or other buckler i guess CAN NOT benefit from the double hit.

-Unless the buck bought an entire team of fs 3 units then you can always benefit from the x2 damage given by hide.

And if you had listened you would have know there isn't ample time to defend yourself because of the mixed damage problem.

-I literally gave you a play by play example that demonstrated exactly how you have enough time to counter.

So the entire point of this entire article was the issue of poison and the mixed physical and magical damage issue.

-An issue that I and many others don't see
Ha and yet I have seen it were knives can be used WITHOUT breaking the cloak. And did you know that if a privy has on absorb that a buckler can hit from the shadows twice? And you till think its not over powered and flawed? Of course you don't...your a buckler you probably love it.

He has other companions.
Um I am talking about the end when its just the buck and the buckler. And yeah I have seen loads of bucklers who come in with first strike team mates I can't hit them either. So once the non first strike ones are gone...my cloaks are useless except for defense.

Play by play example
Your "play by play" example is the method privateers use. I have one I know the strategy it works great. Heh or it does sometimes. Assuming they don't send in goro or nausica and have them sit there in front of where I wanted my barricade doing insane amounts of damage with fort on while the cloaked remaining 3 buff up and prepare for the second wave. Barricade was only REAL example you gave. And I responded right afterward that expecting EVERYONE to do that just to counter your one school is actually just further proof that its over powered. No one thing should be so strong that everyone has to alter everything to compensate for it. And yes as i mentioned it CAN still be thwarted (cause the arena's are too small) and then out goes all semblance of strategy AND the 4 training points i used up to try and make it work.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
Ok Its sad if everyone has to train in one move just so we can all address the over powered buckler class. That is just lame.

-What is really sad i you are given a counter that is useful against many classes and you still refuse to train it. Do you know how useful barricade is going to be once old scratch is fixed and witches have 1.2k mojo storm potential? Barricade is no more drastic than elusive, spooky 2 etc.

Ha that is my point...the school that specializes in shields...wait...their shields dont do ANYTHING to stop the magic damage.

-The school that specializes in shields and buffs is privateer-and their shields do protect from every type of damage. As for poison doing physical damage- you do realize that even if it does get changed to physical damage your bucc shields will still have no effect as they only protect from weapon damage. As for waiting out shields with hide: A bucc can carry just as many shields as a swash can hide and their shields last longer. As for buccs being helpless- I once again reference: Undefeated Champion Bucc or how about Technomage's champion bucc?. Cloak already has enough counters as is ty very much.
Um there are also undefeated buckler champions AND in this new season now that the moo robe isn't a major factor any more. Have YOU noticed how in your examples the moo robe was the main factor for BOTH of them. Now that bucks have lost their greatest weapon...we don't have any records. Yet in this new season there IS a few undefeated buckler champions.

Not to mention that the buckler school has the HIGHST NUMBER of champions. So even if one or two people do good that doesn't mean its the strongest school. That was one persons opinion. Bucklers have the highest numbers. Because its a pretty fool proof strategy even for noobs.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
Hmm and yet...the first person to reach champion in the second season is...a buckler. The highest number of champions in last season is...buckler school.

-Ah, so the most popular school having the most number of champs means OP...and the first person to reach champ determines which school is OP. I have sure learned a lot today lol.

Because my shields are all but usless to a patient buckler. Not really the tank you make us out to be are we.

-Oh your shields are useless? Another news flash.
Lol dont pretend that just because buckler is the most popular school means that it should automatically have the highest number of champions. Can you not hear the illogical assumption in that statement? If they were as weak as you guys claim to be and bucks as op as you say then it would be too hard for bucklers to rise up. Besides...its not just the highest number...its the highest RATIO as well. Nice attempt at trying to twist my words. But I guarantee that there are more buckler to buckler champions then there are to any of the other schools.

Also have you considered that its the most popular BECAUSE its the most powerful? Hmmm? After all if it was...what did you say..."the most limited school" then no one would wanna play it! Its popular because its awesome and they tear everything apart!

And yes I am glad thats a news flash for you. Cause with 4-5 cloaks most bucklers wait out all of my shields and/or purge them...again from the shadows. So if i was wrong it was in using the word "ALL". Because yes a shield or two will stop some damage. But by the end of the battle I am all out defense and wide open, while the patient buckler has his cloak ready, another poison ready, AND an shield equipped. Talk about no hope left. Would be great to have killed them sooner so that things didn't get that desperate but they were hiding in the shadows for 15 rounds.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention about your end all fix all barricade strategy that protects against bucklers. All a buckler really has to do to stop that strategy is wait a turn before doing black fog. Sneak up and break the barrier then fog up and kill everyone.

And in that example barricade hurts the person more than helps. Because now all his guys have to run around their own shield to hit the guy destroying it giving him time to lash out at them now that they aren't actually behind it. Only now they have spent 2 turns running around instead of shielding buffing cloaking etc.

So combining this with my earlier example of the easy ways to stop barricade cause of the small arena's...sort of makes this fool proof strategy of yours rather foolish.

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
Eric Stormbringer on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
Hmm and yet...the first person to reach champion in the second season is...a buckler. The highest number of champions in last season is...buckler school.

-Ah, so the most popular school having the most number of champs means OP...and the first person to reach champ determines which school is OP. I have sure learned a lot today lol.

Because my shields are all but usless to a patient buckler. Not really the tank you make us out to be are we.

-Oh your shields are useless? Another news flash.
being the most popular school shouldnt mean having 20+ buckler champions 5-6 buccaneers maybe like 4 witches 3-5 muskets, and 4 or so privateers. And our shields do nothing vs poison

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9391
Masonpeev on Sep 27, 2015 wrote:
being the most popular school shouldnt mean having 20+ buckler champions 5-6 buccaneers maybe like 4 witches 3-5 muskets, and 4 or so privateers. And our shields do nothing vs poison
Neither does "hide" protect from poison. There's NOTHING at all that protects from poison - for anyone. So why should you make an issue of this?

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Sep 27, 2015 wrote:
Neither does "hide" protect from poison. There's NOTHING at all that protects from poison - for anyone. So why should you make an issue of this?
First of all, the Valor line does effect poison (I think, I should test this). Also, even so, he is making an issue of this because the class is supposed to be a tank... You would think a tank would be able to resist that type of damage, thats all.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 26, 2015 wrote:
Ha and yet I have seen it were knives can be used WITHOUT breaking the cloak. And did you know that if a privy has on absorb that a buckler can hit from the shadows twice? And you till think its not over powered and flawed? Of course you don't...your a buckler you probably love it.

He has other companions.
Um I am talking about the end when its just the buck and the buckler. And yeah I have seen loads of bucklers who come in with first strike team mates I can't hit them either. So once the non first strike ones are gone...my cloaks are useless except for defense.

Play by play example
Your "play by play" example is the method privateers use. I have one I know the strategy it works great. Heh or it does sometimes. Assuming they don't send in goro or nausica and have them sit there in front of where I wanted my barricade doing insane amounts of damage with fort on while the cloaked remaining 3 buff up and prepare for the second wave. Barricade was only REAL example you gave. And I responded right afterward that expecting EVERYONE to do that just to counter your one school is actually just further proof that its over powered. No one thing should be so strong that everyone has to alter everything to compensate for it. And yes as i mentioned it CAN still be thwarted (cause the arena's are too small) and then out goes all semblance of strategy AND the 4 training points i used up to try and make it work.
Ha and yet I have seen it were knives can be used WITHOUT breaking the cloak.

Submit a bug report. As for Valors Armor vs Hide- that applies to any class not just swashbuckler.

Um I am talking about the end when its just the buck and the buckler.

I don't see an issue with using cloak defensively. Also if your stipulation is that it can't be used offensively lte game...ok? The fact is you could have chosen to use cloak offensively the majority of the match but you decided to save it for late game-a player choice.

And I responded right afterward that expecting EVERYONE to do that just to counter your one school is actually just further proof that its over powered. No one thing should be so strong that everyone has to alter everything to compensate for it

As I have stated- If you don't want to use a technique that is particularly effective against hide that is up to you. The fact is- that is not the only counter to hide. The developer has provided many tools to counter hide. You don't choose to use them-too bad.

No one thing should be so strong that everyone has to alter everything to compensate for it. And yes as i mentioned it CAN still be thwarted

No one has to alter their entire strategy-it's a choice. Of course it can still be thwarted. Every countermeasure in the game can be thwarted. Do you want hide's countermeasure to be the only foolproof counter in the game?

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 26, 2015 wrote:
Um there are also undefeated buckler champions AND in this new season now that the moo robe isn't a major factor any more. Have YOU noticed how in your examples the moo robe was the main factor for BOTH of them. Now that bucks have lost their greatest weapon...we don't have any records. Yet in this new season there IS a few undefeated buckler champions.

Not to mention that the buckler school has the HIGHST NUMBER of champions. So even if one or two people do good that doesn't mean its the strongest school. That was one persons opinion. Bucklers have the highest numbers. Because its a pretty fool proof strategy even for noobs.
There are no undefeated buck champions to my knowledge. Buckler has the highest number of players and the highest number of PvP participants. If it didn't have the highest number of champions with that popularity something would be very very wrong.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 26, 2015 wrote:
Lol dont pretend that just because buckler is the most popular school means that it should automatically have the highest number of champions. Can you not hear the illogical assumption in that statement? If they were as weak as you guys claim to be and bucks as op as you say then it would be too hard for bucklers to rise up. Besides...its not just the highest number...its the highest RATIO as well. Nice attempt at trying to twist my words. But I guarantee that there are more buckler to buckler champions then there are to any of the other schools.

Also have you considered that its the most popular BECAUSE its the most powerful? Hmmm? After all if it was...what did you say..."the most limited school" then no one would wanna play it! Its popular because its awesome and they tear everything apart!

And yes I am glad thats a news flash for you. Cause with 4-5 cloaks most bucklers wait out all of my shields and/or purge them...again from the shadows. So if i was wrong it was in using the word "ALL". Because yes a shield or two will stop some damage. But by the end of the battle I am all out defense and wide open, while the patient buckler has his cloak ready, another poison ready, AND an shield equipped. Talk about no hope left. Would be great to have killed them sooner so that things didn't get that desperate but they were hiding in the shadows for 15 rounds.
Lol dont pretend that just because buckler is the most popular school means that it should automatically have the highest number of champions. Can you not hear the illogical assumption in that statement?

How in the world is that an illogical assumption? If I have a higher number of participants in any activity then I would expect them to have a higher proficiency if all other things are equal. Also no one has said that swashbuckler is weak and that buccaneer is OP. What we did say is that bucaneer is the top tier class: An opinion shared by the developer and most expert PvPers.

Besides...its not just the highest number...its the highest RATIO as well. Nice attempt at trying to twist my words. But I guarantee that there are more buckler to buckler champions then there are to any of the other schools.

You have access to KI's data?

Also have you considered that its the most popular BECAUSE its the most powerful? Hmmm? After all if it was...what did you say..."the most limited school" then no one would wanna play it! Its popular because its awesome and they tear everything apart!

It was the most popular school long before the release of Ranked PvP and even back in the days when it was complete garbage in PvP.

But by the end of the battle I am all out defense and wide open, while the patient buckler has his cloak ready, another poison ready, AND an shield equipped.

At the end of the battle you should be able to still have defenses left if you are geared correctly.

Would be great to have killed them sooner so that things didn't get that desperate but they were hiding in the shadows for 15 rounds.

That's your fault. A swashbuckler cannot chain hides so if you missed your windows thats on you.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 26, 2015 wrote:
Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention about your end all fix all barricade strategy that protects against bucklers. All a buckler really has to do to stop that strategy is wait a turn before doing black fog. Sneak up and break the barrier then fog up and kill everyone.

And in that example barricade hurts the person more than helps. Because now all his guys have to run around their own shield to hit the guy destroying it giving him time to lash out at them now that they aren't actually behind it. Only now they have spent 2 turns running around instead of shielding buffing cloaking etc.

So combining this with my earlier example of the easy ways to stop barricade cause of the small arena's...sort of makes this fool proof strategy of yours rather foolish.
Oh and one more thing I forgot to mention about your end all fix all barricade strategy that protects against bucklers. All a buckler really has to do to stop that strategy is wait a turn before doing black fog. Sneak up and break the barrier then fog up and kill everyone.

What are you talking about? Why in the world are you using barricade before a swashbuckler has cast fog? How is a swashbuckler sneaking up and breaking the barricade without extreme retaliation or a preemptive strike?

Because now all his guys have to run around their own shield to hit the guy destroying it giving him time to lash out at them now that they aren't actually behind it.

If all your units are ganging up on the unit breaking the barricade-then the unit breaking the barricade is dead without dealing any non-responsive damage to your units.

sort of makes this fool proof strategy of yours rather foolish.

Except for the people who actually know how to utilize barricade.