The REAL problem with swashbucklers

AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
Oh I forgot to mention that bucklers also have pierce armor. So even my armor that I do have is reduced. And also by the way this entire thing I just spoke about doesn’t just apply to buccaneers. The other schools have even less shields than bucks do. AND because most of their cloaks last 5 rounds they can wear down and force everyone to waste their status altering moves. So even if my buck does have that many shields a bucklers 3-5 cloaks forces the shields and the vicious charge de-buffs to vanish. Note…I am not complaining about fog or cloaking. I am merely bringing it up to point out that they have a lot without poison being over powered too.

Also plz note as well that I am not just a disgruntled buck/privateer here. I also have a swashbuckler at max level. And I was stunned at how easy it was win in comparison to my buccaneer. In fact the hardest opponents were other swashbucklers since we all have first strike 3.

Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
135
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
Lol poison is not broken one fort makes that 1000 damage 500 and that's with only one fort one heal normaly does about 400 see how that works out? Poison is not broken.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9072
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
Well, it seems that, not content with posting your complaints in the other post about Black Fog, you've decided to post your inflated and false numbers in a new post.
I hate repeating myself but here it is:
All poison attacks do 180 damage for 5 rounds, simple math tells us that this is 910 damage. This excludes damage from bonuses, but it doesn't exceed the 1000 - 3000 that you contend can happen. Poison doesn't stack.
Dragon Axe of Doom - base damage is 235 ( bonuses and gear varies, I won't figure them in ).x2 ( hidden bonus ) = 470.
Now add in 840 from the strike = 1310 + 243 ( bleeding damage x2 for the 2 turns not 3 ) = 1796.
so 910 + 1796 = 2706 ( basic damage. Nothing at all like the crazy numbers you have presented. ) Assassin's Strike or Backstab doesn't stack.
You claim to be a max Swashbuckler, but you seem to think that bleeding damage last 3 rounds, you also think you can only train 2 poisons and get an extra from gear, this is false - we train 3 poisons and we can get as many poisons from gear ( at least 3 ) and an extra poison from a weapon; the Staff of Power which grants Vengeance Shroud. This does no damage, just applies the same curse that Assassin's Shroud does.
As to pierce armor, any melee class can get this talent from their weapon, we don't get it naturally.
I wonder how so many other classes have made it to Champion when Swashbucklers do the kind of damage you claim? Answer - because we don't.

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
1) There is also no consequence for a lot of powers(shadowdance tier one, Charm, Any defensive buff, and team buff, etc.). Bucklers learn 3 naturally(counting the low tier one)

2) Poison does not stack in pvp, therefore only one of those poisons can be used at a time. Therefore, you can only get ~1000 damage per hide, since poison lasts for 5 turns. Saying that you can do 3k without breaking hide does not make sense.

3)Buccaneers will basically never get magical defense, it is their one weakness, so that is fair game.

4) I only have two things for poison that could help a lot. It could have a starting number so that is breaks hide, that could be a solution. It used to be where poison would trigger quick draw. If that came back in, muskets w/ QD3 could be made significantly more viable. I also do not think Poison should be allowed to critical, because no other DoT can critical, which brings poison to potentially do ~2000, apply curse with that and the entire crew can be easily defeated because of a critical DoT that cannot break hide.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok lots of people on here have been complaining about black fog. Well thats not the real issue. To be honest I agree with Ratbeard and all those others. If they dont have black fog what do they have really? Ill tell you what they have. The true issue with swashbuckler school is the poison. There is NO consequences for using poison. And a buckler learns 2 poison naturally and usually has a 3rd from gear. Each one does ~1000 damage. That means a swashbuckler can do ~3000 damage without ever breaking their cloak! But wait there is more...one of those 1000 damages stops healing too. Now does this seem unfair to anyone else?

And remember they are still cloaked which mean their assassin strike (with more bleeding on top of poison) is rearing and ready to go for double its damage while the poison sucks your life away. So for those of you who are counting. That is 3000 free damage + roughly 4800 damage from 3 strikes + 1500 damage from 3 bleeding. Oh and if they have the fire axe throw on another 900 for good measure. That is 9,300-10,200 give or take a few hundred. Now some will argue that you can have fort gear and stack shields and all that garbage. But that wont save you from that level of damage. My buck has 2 forts and 4 lament/call shields and 2 25% shields and I still cant block that much damage on top of fog and no healing and swashbucklers who bring their own forts and moo robes to boot. Keep in mind that poison and bleeding are magic damage so buck shields do NOTHING to block them at all. If they did then things might be more fair. So that is 3000 + 1500 = 4500 unblockable damage. Idk about you but my buck only has 3000 health with limited heal and fort spells.

I am sorry but this has to be fixed. Poison NEEDS to break the cloak. Bucklers need to be forced to choose between assassin strike and poison. You cant allow them to have both that is just too over powered and unfair. Or they can assassin strike first THEN poison. But that at the very least gives you a small window to heal or retaliate. Please Mr. Ratbeard. Bonnie Anne. Please please fix this. All you have to do is give it a tiny bit of initial damage like fire elf or pretty much any DoT that wizard101 does.

Thank you for reading this post. Please respond with your thoughts.
I really disagree.
1. We get 3 Poisons, each deals 165 damage per round at base. Sometimes they go critical, and can deal even more damage if you train spooky. Since the first poison is only 3 rounds, and they deal damage over time, they aren't even remotely overpowered. Also i'm not sure what type of maths you were doing, but 165 X 5= 825. Even if i trained spooky, it only does 191 per turn, which still doesn't reach the 1,000 damage you claimed it was.
2. We cannot chain hide. Once our 3/5 rounds of hidden are up, we are visible for one turn before we can hide again. So it isn't possible to spam poison.
3. We only get one base assassins strike, the rest are from gear. And usually that doesn't even do the damage on the description. When hidden (for me at least) it deals out 1,200-1,500 damage (not including bleeding). But, if you seriously don't have leviathans call, or Valor's Fortress/Armor/Shield then you shouldn't be doing any PvP in the first place. A Levy or a fort can take that damage to 600-750. Doesn't seem so OP now.
4. Bleeding does only a quarter of the original assassin's damage. So your buccaneer shields are useful, because the majority of the damage will be shielded against.
5. Poison should not reduce hidden because it isn't necessarily an attack. It deals damage slowly, and over 3/5 rounds. If it removed our hidden, that would be broken.
6. You are overcalculating. 4500 unblockable damage? How on earth did you get that? One of the poisons lasts for 3 rounds, so it can't be 3,000.
Firstly, that's incorrect because it would take 13 rounds to deal that much damage, and even so, 3 poisons do 2145 damage, and 3 bleeding's do around 670. If you use one fort, that damage goes down to 1407.5. And if you were smart enough to use multiple shields at once, it shrinks to a mere 703 damage.

Almost all of the points you made were invalid. Imo, none of the changes need to be added. And this isn't the real problem, the only problem here is you overreacting.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Well, it seems that, not content with posting your complaints in the other post about Black Fog, you've decided to post your inflated and false numbers in a new post.
I hate repeating myself but here it is:
All poison attacks do 180 damage for 5 rounds, simple math tells us that this is 910 damage. This excludes damage from bonuses, but it doesn't exceed the 1000 - 3000 that you contend can happen. Poison doesn't stack.
Dragon Axe of Doom - base damage is 235 ( bonuses and gear varies, I won't figure them in ).x2 ( hidden bonus ) = 470.
Now add in 840 from the strike = 1310 + 243 ( bleeding damage x2 for the 2 turns not 3 ) = 1796.
so 910 + 1796 = 2706 ( basic damage. Nothing at all like the crazy numbers you have presented. ) Assassin's Strike or Backstab doesn't stack.
You claim to be a max Swashbuckler, but you seem to think that bleeding damage last 3 rounds, you also think you can only train 2 poisons and get an extra from gear, this is false - we train 3 poisons and we can get as many poisons from gear ( at least 3 ) and an extra poison from a weapon; the Staff of Power which grants Vengeance Shroud. This does no damage, just applies the same curse that Assassin's Shroud does.
As to pierce armor, any melee class can get this talent from their weapon, we don't get it naturally.
I wonder how so many other classes have made it to Champion when Swashbucklers do the kind of damage you claim? Answer - because we don't.
Wow really anecorbe? You still dont get it? Ok Ill try to make this simple. You cant just do 840 by itself you made that mistake on your first reply too. Do you not understand how cloaking doubles your hit? Look at assassin strike while cloaked and tell me what it says. ((Basically have to double that number to 1680.)) That is how much damage it does on the inital hit plus 500 damage worth of bleeding = 2180 for one cloaked assassin strike. And since most bucklers have at least 3 cloaks and at least 3 assassin strikes that means they hit with assassin strike from the shadows three times. Still with me? So 2180 x 3 is 6540 without poison. I have after all talked about this from the beginning in context of the entire match...not just one hit. So yes 6540 damage is with just hitting.

Add to that the poison. And fine lets say its 910 ((clearly you didn't understand the "where your raised" krokatopia boost thing I tried to explain so we can leave it at 910. I can assure you that MY swashbuckler does 199 damage for 5 rounds)) That is still 2730 damage if used on a pirate 3 times. And yes I have had that happen to me many times in pvp. Add to that the 6540 that follows once they strike shortly after poisoning from the shadows and that equals 9270 damage over the course of an entire match. So yeah my claim is pretty spot on.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
the midnightpirate on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Lol poison is not broken one fort makes that 1000 damage 500 and that's with only one fort one heal normaly does about 400 see how that works out? Poison is not broken.
Yeah and how many forts do other pirates have naturally? Thats right 0. Only privateers have fort. Granted I could cary fort. But swashbucklers cloak lasts 5 rounds. If I used my fort early to block poison I have had many a buckler use their 5 round cloak to their advantage and wait till all my forts are used up. Then use a second poison now that my forts are all exhausted.

Saying that one fort can block 3 poisons is ridiculous. And as I mentioned If a player exhausts all their efforts just to stop this one over powered move then that leaves them wide open to everything else.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Stormy Sam Templet... on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
1) There is also no consequence for a lot of powers(shadowdance tier one, Charm, Any defensive buff, and team buff, etc.). Bucklers learn 3 naturally(counting the low tier one)

2) Poison does not stack in pvp, therefore only one of those poisons can be used at a time. Therefore, you can only get ~1000 damage per hide, since poison lasts for 5 turns. Saying that you can do 3k without breaking hide does not make sense.

3)Buccaneers will basically never get magical defense, it is their one weakness, so that is fair game.

4) I only have two things for poison that could help a lot. It could have a starting number so that is breaks hide, that could be a solution. It used to be where poison would trigger quick draw. If that came back in, muskets w/ QD3 could be made significantly more viable. I also do not think Poison should be allowed to critical, because no other DoT can critical, which brings poison to potentially do ~2000, apply curse with that and the entire crew can be easily defeated because of a critical DoT that cannot break hide.
Ok well your first suggestion in point 4 was the exact same one I made so no worries there.

I did forget it can critical so your right that its ~2000 damage! Wow.

I think you guys are all missing the concept that I did try to phrase this over the context of an entire match. Here is the pattern I have seen bucklers use. Cloak then poison then shield then assassin strike...repeat. I have done several pvp matches where this has been the patter 2 or 3 times in a match. And by the 3rd time I am out of heals out of shields and almost dead.

Also keep in mind that while yes there are other buffs and so on cloak lasts 5 rounds. This SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the efficiency of ALL buff and debuff spells. Every buckler I have ever faced has used those 5 rounds of hiding to wear out and use up every shield and buff I got. This wasn't my original point and I am not complaining about it, I just bring it up cause it is worth noting when discussing the meriad of buckler benefits and the need to have poison break their cloak.

Yes bucks dont get magical defense but we dont get any base armor either. We can learn 16 armor but we have not base armor that increases with our level like a witch/privateer resist does on top of the 24 they can learn as well. Yet oddly enough the buckler weapons give them additional armor and pierce and the game maker want to give their weapons more damage too. Hmm...does anyone see things becoming a little lopsided towards bucklers?

The schools that have shields cant hit them while cloaked. And the schools that can hit them while cloaked dont have any shields. Basically bucklers have a clear path to all opponents.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Well, it seems that, not content with posting your complaints in the other post about Black Fog, you've decided to post your inflated and false numbers in a new post.
I hate repeating myself but here it is:
All poison attacks do 180 damage for 5 rounds, simple math tells us that this is 910 damage. This excludes damage from bonuses, but it doesn't exceed the 1000 - 3000 that you contend can happen. Poison doesn't stack.
Dragon Axe of Doom - base damage is 235 ( bonuses and gear varies, I won't figure them in ).x2 ( hidden bonus ) = 470.
Now add in 840 from the strike = 1310 + 243 ( bleeding damage x2 for the 2 turns not 3 ) = 1796.
so 910 + 1796 = 2706 ( basic damage. Nothing at all like the crazy numbers you have presented. ) Assassin's Strike or Backstab doesn't stack.
You claim to be a max Swashbuckler, but you seem to think that bleeding damage last 3 rounds, you also think you can only train 2 poisons and get an extra from gear, this is false - we train 3 poisons and we can get as many poisons from gear ( at least 3 ) and an extra poison from a weapon; the Staff of Power which grants Vengeance Shroud. This does no damage, just applies the same curse that Assassin's Shroud does.
As to pierce armor, any melee class can get this talent from their weapon, we don't get it naturally.
I wonder how so many other classes have made it to Champion when Swashbucklers do the kind of damage you claim? Answer - because we don't.
Clearly your not understanding how cloak boosts your own hits or the number of times swashbucklers nail people from the shadows. Now if your implying that swashbucklers NEVER hit with assassin strike from the shadows then you would be right. But the only time i have seen them not hit from the shadows is cause they ran out of cloak or I am almost dead. So your entire post is skewed from square one. Your also not grasping that this is in context of the entire match. Meaning that this all happens 3 times at least. Maybe more depending on how people are set up. And just fyi I have a max swashbuckler and he is a champion, so I am talking from experience here.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
DeathWiz101378 on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
I really disagree.
1. We get 3 Poisons, each deals 165 damage per round at base. Sometimes they go critical, and can deal even more damage if you train spooky. Since the first poison is only 3 rounds, and they deal damage over time, they aren't even remotely overpowered. Also i'm not sure what type of maths you were doing, but 165 X 5= 825. Even if i trained spooky, it only does 191 per turn, which still doesn't reach the 1,000 damage you claimed it was.
2. We cannot chain hide. Once our 3/5 rounds of hidden are up, we are visible for one turn before we can hide again. So it isn't possible to spam poison.
3. We only get one base assassins strike, the rest are from gear. And usually that doesn't even do the damage on the description. When hidden (for me at least) it deals out 1,200-1,500 damage (not including bleeding). But, if you seriously don't have leviathans call, or Valor's Fortress/Armor/Shield then you shouldn't be doing any PvP in the first place. A Levy or a fort can take that damage to 600-750. Doesn't seem so OP now.
4. Bleeding does only a quarter of the original assassin's damage. So your buccaneer shields are useful, because the majority of the damage will be shielded against.
5. Poison should not reduce hidden because it isn't necessarily an attack. It deals damage slowly, and over 3/5 rounds. If it removed our hidden, that would be broken.
6. You are overcalculating. 4500 unblockable damage? How on earth did you get that? One of the poisons lasts for 3 rounds, so it can't be 3,000.
Firstly, that's incorrect because it would take 13 rounds to deal that much damage, and even so, 3 poisons do 2145 damage, and 3 bleeding's do around 670. If you use one fort, that damage goes down to 1407.5. And if you were smart enough to use multiple shields at once, it shrinks to a mere 703 damage.

Almost all of the points you made were invalid. Imo, none of the changes need to be added. And this isn't the real problem, the only problem here is you overreacting.
Ok you are another one who is in denial. Ok for the record these numbers are not made up. I HAVE a max level swashbuckler and these are MY numbers. So to counter any more of your guys complaints allow me to elaborate what my buckler has. If you trained yours differently or don't have some of these benefits or maybe you didn't do all the zeke quests like I did then maybe you should look into that.

My buckler grew up in krok which means he has 5% mojo boost from birth. I choose this because magic power increases bleeding and poison effects. I also did train in mojo mastery from the witch school. That is another 5% and a 10% giving my buckler 20% mojo increase in total. Here is what MY poison says. 199 damage for 5 rounds. Do the math that is 996 damage or approximately 1000 damage. And my assassin strike bleeding is 265 for 2 rounds which equals 530.

The pattern I have seen when playing bucklers is. Cloak then critical boost then poison then shield then assassin strike...repeat. I have seen bucklers do this 3 or even 4 times in a match. And by the 3rd time all my shields and heals and buffs are exhausted and i am almost dead. So if you take 1000 and 530 magic/bleeding damage and multiply it by the 3 times this happens in a match. You get 4500 unblock-able damage just like I said.

That isnt even including the 3 round poison they can also use. ((You have 2 five round ones and usually one from gear.)) Plus the inability to heal during one of those poison rounds. The fact that its slow doesn't matter. I cant heal and I cant block it. Oh...and you can critical poison too in which case that is 2000 damage per usage. And with your critical boosting move this happens fairly frequently.

As for assassin not doing its propper damage. All the moves on all my pirates have the same issue. The fact is its a range even though the card doesnt say that. Every school has to put up with it. I am just saying what the numbers officially say on the cards.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9072
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Wow really anecorbe? You still dont get it? Ok Ill try to make this simple. You cant just do 840 by itself you made that mistake on your first reply too. Do you not understand how cloaking doubles your hit? Look at assassin strike while cloaked and tell me what it says. ((Basically have to double that number to 1680.)) That is how much damage it does on the inital hit plus 500 damage worth of bleeding = 2180 for one cloaked assassin strike. And since most bucklers have at least 3 cloaks and at least 3 assassin strikes that means they hit with assassin strike from the shadows three times. Still with me? So 2180 x 3 is 6540 without poison. I have after all talked about this from the beginning in context of the entire match...not just one hit. So yes 6540 damage is with just hitting.

Add to that the poison. And fine lets say its 910 ((clearly you didn't understand the "where your raised" krokatopia boost thing I tried to explain so we can leave it at 910. I can assure you that MY swashbuckler does 199 damage for 5 rounds)) That is still 2730 damage if used on a pirate 3 times. And yes I have had that happen to me many times in pvp. Add to that the 6540 that follows once they strike shortly after poisoning from the shadows and that equals 9270 damage over the course of an entire match. So yeah my claim is pretty spot on.
It's you that don't understand - if you actually look at the card you'll see that the x2 bonus from hide applies only to the weapon power and not the initial hit of Assassin's Strike.
And you still don't get the fact that poisons don't stack.
You need to check your facts.
Post Edit - I know that there are a few SBs who chose Krok as their origin, Naturally Spooky only adds + 5% to magic attacks, if they then train Spooky they get an additional + 20% Still not enough to reflect the gross numbers you've put forward - I don't believe we need to worry about such a small number of SBs from Krokotopia or the small extra damage they do.
If you care to look at the November 2013 newsletter "Vadima's Visions" you'll see the amount of pirates per origin chosen. SBs generally chose MooShu, or Skull Island as their origin, with a smaller set choosing Grizzleheim. Apparently the amount of Krok SBs was too small to be represented.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
It's you that don't understand - if you actually look at the card you'll see that the x2 bonus from hide applies only to the weapon power and not the initial hit of Assassin's Strike.
And you still don't get the fact that poisons don't stack.
You need to check your facts.
Post Edit - I know that there are a few SBs who chose Krok as their origin, Naturally Spooky only adds + 5% to magic attacks, if they then train Spooky they get an additional + 20% Still not enough to reflect the gross numbers you've put forward - I don't believe we need to worry about such a small number of SBs from Krokotopia or the small extra damage they do.
If you care to look at the November 2013 newsletter "Vadima's Visions" you'll see the amount of pirates per origin chosen. SBs generally chose MooShu, or Skull Island as their origin, with a smaller set choosing Grizzleheim. Apparently the amount of Krok SBs was too small to be represented.
Pfft. I have a max buckler. I have pvp'ed with that buckler. I know how it works. When I hit the over all damage from the cloaked assassin strike is 1200-1600 damage (since its a range) followed by over 500 bleeding damage. So how you can play that off as only 820 or whatever is beyond me.

Second of all poison and bleeding and axe of doom DO all stack. As for poison by itself it doesn't need to stack since guess what cloak also lasts 5 rounds just like poison does. Here is the pattern again in case your not reading the other posts I am responding to other bucklers about. Here is what bucklers do (including myself) in pvp...cloak then critical boost then poison then shield then assassin strike...repeat. So if you follow that pattern with maybe one or two rounds of being shielded but uncloaked. A buckler will indeed do 3 poisons and 3 cloaked assassin strikes over the course of an entire match.

So while a buckler stays hidden he is 1) draining their health with all the damage over time stuff 2) wearing down their opponents own buffs and any debuts like charge sitting on him 3) buffing himself up with more critical or shields or whatever 4) casting more poison DoT's once the first set runs out 5) becoming perfectly poised to nail their target once again with a cloaked assassin or super strike.

Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
135
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Yeah and how many forts do other pirates have naturally? Thats right 0. Only privateers have fort. Granted I could cary fort. But swashbucklers cloak lasts 5 rounds. If I used my fort early to block poison I have had many a buckler use their 5 round cloak to their advantage and wait till all my forts are used up. Then use a second poison now that my forts are all exhausted.

Saying that one fort can block 3 poisons is ridiculous. And as I mentioned If a player exhausts all their efforts just to stop this one over powered move then that leaves them wide open to everything else.
3 poison hmm that would take 15 turns to add all that damage lolz honestly I find it pretty funny you think poison is broken

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Ok you are another one who is in denial. Ok for the record these numbers are not made up. I HAVE a max level swashbuckler and these are MY numbers. So to counter any more of your guys complaints allow me to elaborate what my buckler has. If you trained yours differently or don't have some of these benefits or maybe you didn't do all the zeke quests like I did then maybe you should look into that.

My buckler grew up in krok which means he has 5% mojo boost from birth. I choose this because magic power increases bleeding and poison effects. I also did train in mojo mastery from the witch school. That is another 5% and a 10% giving my buckler 20% mojo increase in total. Here is what MY poison says. 199 damage for 5 rounds. Do the math that is 996 damage or approximately 1000 damage. And my assassin strike bleeding is 265 for 2 rounds which equals 530.

The pattern I have seen when playing bucklers is. Cloak then critical boost then poison then shield then assassin strike...repeat. I have seen bucklers do this 3 or even 4 times in a match. And by the 3rd time all my shields and heals and buffs are exhausted and i am almost dead. So if you take 1000 and 530 magic/bleeding damage and multiply it by the 3 times this happens in a match. You get 4500 unblock-able damage just like I said.

That isnt even including the 3 round poison they can also use. ((You have 2 five round ones and usually one from gear.)) Plus the inability to heal during one of those poison rounds. The fact that its slow doesn't matter. I cant heal and I cant block it. Oh...and you can critical poison too in which case that is 2000 damage per usage. And with your critical boosting move this happens fairly frequently.

As for assassin not doing its propper damage. All the moves on all my pirates have the same issue. The fact is its a range even though the card doesnt say that. Every school has to put up with it. I am just saying what the numbers officially say on the cards.
The chances of running into a swashbuckler who was smart enough to train naturally spooky and all 2 spooky's from the witch trainer is low enough. The average swashbucklers' poison only does 190 if they train spooky.
You still have forgotten, only 2 poisons last for 5 rounds. The other is 3. So if it does 200 a turn, it reaches a maximum of 2,600 danage. Which, is impossible to deal out in a ranked match unless your opponent had left to another country, leaving all their companions grouped and not attacking your player for 16 rounds (if you want to chain hide), 3 of which they have an opportunity to attack you whilst your hidden goes down.
4500 unblockable damage is pure nonsense. You're telling me that no opponent would even think of casting at least valor's shield? That alone would take it down to 3370 damage. And i highly doubt you would still be alive after 17 rounds of the enemy having a chance to defeat you, over and over with any AoE cards.
And I also have a max swashbuckler, who is my main PvP Pirate, so you shouldn't act like your the only one using a buckler who understands.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9072
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Ok you are another one who is in denial. Ok for the record these numbers are not made up. I HAVE a max level swashbuckler and these are MY numbers. So to counter any more of your guys complaints allow me to elaborate what my buckler has. If you trained yours differently or don't have some of these benefits or maybe you didn't do all the zeke quests like I did then maybe you should look into that.

My buckler grew up in krok which means he has 5% mojo boost from birth. I choose this because magic power increases bleeding and poison effects. I also did train in mojo mastery from the witch school. That is another 5% and a 10% giving my buckler 20% mojo increase in total. Here is what MY poison says. 199 damage for 5 rounds. Do the math that is 996 damage or approximately 1000 damage. And my assassin strike bleeding is 265 for 2 rounds which equals 530.

The pattern I have seen when playing bucklers is. Cloak then critical boost then poison then shield then assassin strike...repeat. I have seen bucklers do this 3 or even 4 times in a match. And by the 3rd time all my shields and heals and buffs are exhausted and i am almost dead. So if you take 1000 and 530 magic/bleeding damage and multiply it by the 3 times this happens in a match. You get 4500 unblock-able damage just like I said.

That isnt even including the 3 round poison they can also use. ((You have 2 five round ones and usually one from gear.)) Plus the inability to heal during one of those poison rounds. The fact that its slow doesn't matter. I cant heal and I cant block it. Oh...and you can critical poison too in which case that is 2000 damage per usage. And with your critical boosting move this happens fairly frequently.

As for assassin not doing its propper damage. All the moves on all my pirates have the same issue. The fact is its a range even though the card doesnt say that. Every school has to put up with it. I am just saying what the numbers officially say on the cards.
So those are your numbers, so what? In your original post you made it sound as if every single Swashbuckler was capable of dealing that damage - when in actuality its only those who chose Krok and only that damage from poison that gets a spooky bonus.
Talk about bias, it's here in your posts. You slanted the numbers to reflect your statement of how poison must break a hide, a bit of special pleading, and it doesn't fool anyone here for one minute.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
anecorbie on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
So those are your numbers, so what? In your original post you made it sound as if every single Swashbuckler was capable of dealing that damage - when in actuality its only those who chose Krok and only that damage from poison that gets a spooky bonus.
Talk about bias, it's here in your posts. You slanted the numbers to reflect your statement of how poison must break a hide, a bit of special pleading, and it doesn't fool anyone here for one minute.
Actually I am sharing what I have seen in the many many pvp matches I have done. The fact of the matter is ever 9 out of 10 matches I end up fighting a swashbuckler. And almost every single one of those swashbucklers have similar stats. ESPECIALLY the ones that have reached champion level. The facts is YOU are the one who isn't set up right. All the other bucklers I fight realized that mojo affects their bleeding as well as poison and at the very least have the witch mojo mastery's as well. Giving them something like 920 poison damage. Which as you might recall I calculated the numbers for that as well. It still ends up being about 4000+ magic damage. I know you want me to be exaggerating. And now that I have countered your excuses you have nothing esle to do but attack me personally but I have not lied and I have not blow up the numbers. This is all fact I have observed from the myriad of pvp opponents I have faced. You on the other hand have shown a lack of understanding of your own moves. As well as a lack of any real evidence or experience. So plz give your reply's more thought and consideration before commenting.

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
the midnightpirate on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Lol poison is not broken one fort makes that 1000 damage 500 and that's with only one fort one heal normaly does about 400 see how that works out? Poison is not broken.
One heal? do you even know your classes powers? one of the poisons doesnt allow healing, and you stay hidden, AND i'm wasting a fort protecting against poison

Lieutenant
Nov 28, 2014
138
anecorbie on Sep 8, 2015 wrote:
Well, it seems that, not content with posting your complaints in the other post about Black Fog, you've decided to post your inflated and false numbers in a new post.
I hate repeating myself but here it is:
All poison attacks do 180 damage for 5 rounds, simple math tells us that this is 910 damage. This excludes damage from bonuses, but it doesn't exceed the 1000 - 3000 that you contend can happen. Poison doesn't stack.
Dragon Axe of Doom - base damage is 235 ( bonuses and gear varies, I won't figure them in ).x2 ( hidden bonus ) = 470.
Now add in 840 from the strike = 1310 + 243 ( bleeding damage x2 for the 2 turns not 3 ) = 1796.
so 910 + 1796 = 2706 ( basic damage. Nothing at all like the crazy numbers you have presented. ) Assassin's Strike or Backstab doesn't stack.
You claim to be a max Swashbuckler, but you seem to think that bleeding damage last 3 rounds, you also think you can only train 2 poisons and get an extra from gear, this is false - we train 3 poisons and we can get as many poisons from gear ( at least 3 ) and an extra poison from a weapon; the Staff of Power which grants Vengeance Shroud. This does no damage, just applies the same curse that Assassin's Shroud does.
As to pierce armor, any melee class can get this talent from their weapon, we don't get it naturally.
I wonder how so many other classes have made it to Champion when Swashbucklers do the kind of damage you claim? Answer - because we don't.
Anercobie, I'm sorry but your claim at the end was especially incorrect, all other classes getting to champion? have you seen the champions? I'm 1 out of 4-6 buccaneer champions, then there's maybe 3 muskets? maybe less, 2 witchdoctors, and I haven't even seen a privateer, MAYBE 1, oh lets look at swashbucklers now, there's around 20+ SWASHBUCKLER CHAMPIONS, compared that to the other classes

Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
135
Masonpeev on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
One heal? do you even know your classes powers? one of the poisons doesnt allow healing, and you stay hidden, AND i'm wasting a fort protecting against poison
do you even know about farmed gear?

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9072
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
Actually I am sharing what I have seen in the many many pvp matches I have done. The fact of the matter is ever 9 out of 10 matches I end up fighting a swashbuckler. And almost every single one of those swashbucklers have similar stats. ESPECIALLY the ones that have reached champion level. The facts is YOU are the one who isn't set up right. All the other bucklers I fight realized that mojo affects their bleeding as well as poison and at the very least have the witch mojo mastery's as well. Giving them something like 920 poison damage. Which as you might recall I calculated the numbers for that as well. It still ends up being about 4000+ magic damage. I know you want me to be exaggerating. And now that I have countered your excuses you have nothing esle to do but attack me personally but I have not lied and I have not blow up the numbers. This is all fact I have observed from the myriad of pvp opponents I have faced. You on the other hand have shown a lack of understanding of your own moves. As well as a lack of any real evidence or experience. So plz give your reply's more thought and consideration before commenting.
You have accused me of resorting to character slurs because I'm unable to refute your number. The best defense against an accusation is the truth.
1. That you are biased. This is borne out by your replies to those disagreeing to your original post. When we politely pointed out your errors in training and damage, what did we get in return? Sarcasm and contempt. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, don't post.
2. Inflating the numbers. When you admitted that the actual damage done by your Krok - origin - spooky - trained swashbuckler was 996 ( which you approximated into 1000 ) you offered direct proof that you inflated that number. This calls into question every number used to support your argument that Poison is over powered.
3. That I don't understand how to train my swashbuckler. Since I chose MooShu as my origin ( Born Warrior which gives me a +5% bonus to weapon power ) it only makes sense that I use training that assists that damage. I therefore have 3 ranks in Rough - so if your poison & bleeding damage is more effective; my damage from weapon attacks are more effective. This only proves that there is more than one way to train a swashbuckler.
Now to something I feel we've been leaving out of our calculations: the stats on our character sheets.
Armor stat - armor helps block a percentage of damage from a weapon attack; the higher the armor, the more damage blocked. Buccaneers generally have a better armor stat than other classes.
Magic Resist - magic resistance block a percentage of magical damage ( like poisons ) Witchdoctors have the highest resistance in the game.
These stats can be boosted by gear. If you wish to increase any of these stats, look for gear that offers those bonuses.
I wish to correct one error in my base damage of poison - the amount isn't 910 but 900.
I have said everything I can on this subject., to me, this matter is closed.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9072
Masonpeev on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
Anercobie, I'm sorry but your claim at the end was especially incorrect, all other classes getting to champion? have you seen the champions? I'm 1 out of 4-6 buccaneer champions, then there's maybe 3 muskets? maybe less, 2 witchdoctors, and I haven't even seen a privateer, MAYBE 1, oh lets look at swashbucklers now, there's around 20+ SWASHBUCKLER CHAMPIONS, compared that to the other classes
Show me the numbers.

Lieutenant
Oct 12, 2012
149
Masonpeev on Sep 10, 2015 wrote:
Anercobie, I'm sorry but your claim at the end was especially incorrect, all other classes getting to champion? have you seen the champions? I'm 1 out of 4-6 buccaneer champions, then there's maybe 3 muskets? maybe less, 2 witchdoctors, and I haven't even seen a privateer, MAYBE 1, oh lets look at swashbucklers now, there's around 20+ SWASHBUCKLER CHAMPIONS, compared that to the other classes
My friend John Walker a Privateer is a champion.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Wow do you guys even read the other posts? Like seriously I feel like I am repeating myself. It would be a pain to reply to you all separately so I going to try and do this all in one go so this might take a few posts. Hopefully the moderators allow the whole thing.

First of all Anecorbie I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but your comments make no sense. Apparently you don’t understand words like approximately and insist on splitting hairs. Never the less I WILL give you the number AGAIN since you cant seem to grasp them. Deathwiz101378 a buckler who also disagrees with me says that poison on average is 190 poison per round. I will work with the numbers biased on that ratio. I hope that’s ok with everyone since you all seem to have a problem with the krock raised thing. He says that’s the average so that’s what I am going to go off of ok? I realize there will be exceptions but get over it…this is the average. ((btw average means that MOST people have that number in case that confuses people))

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Now…let me begin by stating the “pattern” of buckler attack that I have seen. Thanks to the moo macho tower gear a bucklers ring amulet and totem have extra spells. Now no one uses all 3 but I think its safe to say that “ON AVERAGE” most bucklers carry at least one or two of them. Giving them an extra cloak extra assassin strike and extra poison. ((Deathwiz101378 that means that they have more than just two 5 rounds poisons and one 3 round one. It means that ignoring the 3 round one bucklers have three 5 round poisons one of which stops healing)). Now the pattern I have seen bucklers use is cloak > buff (critical or other stat) > poison > shield > assassin strike. This is the pattern. Now to simplify things I am going to break it down into steps since several of you have commented on it going for “15 rounds” or whatever makes it somehow less dangerous. Well most of my buckler matches last that long at least biased on that pattern…which I will now elaborate on.