MASSIVE PVP Unfairness.

1
AuthorMessage
Bosun
Oct 26, 2012
376
This is a massive problem in pvp, and can make one user have simple cheap victory over another. It's about buffs. I have beaten and been beaten another user simply because one user had thier spells in order and the other had thier spells in a barnyard order. I mean seriously for two battles my team hide (which is my first placed spell) did not appear until round 6 or 7, and by that time The opponent who had his spells in order beat me severely. Another time I beat a privateer because he never received his battle zeal or critical buff. These are cheap victories just because of buff placement. The oppositon did tell me after the battle if thier spells were in order or not.

These are my solutions:
A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, spells will come down in the order they are placed in, to not allow an advantage from one player over another.

This is not a feature I would like to be introduced, it must be introduced.

Bosun
Nov 03, 2012
365
I never thought of that but good idea. You can order your powers already but it's not spiffy clean all the time. I like the idea that in PvP it has to be ordered your way. Great Idea!

Commodore
Jul 07, 2013
962
Sounds like your just sore because you lost at pvp. The request you made was made because it would benefit you personally. The game designers don't have to add anything because you think so. If you want to win create a strategy to do so. You can meet the challenge. Where is the fun if you win every time?

Dante Ramsey

Lieutenant
May 24, 2009
160
Wow, that does seem like a problem. As a Privateer, my buffs are crucial to all of my wins. Without buffs, I feel pretty useless. I love to PvP, and I have never had a battle where my best cards don't show up within 3 rounds, but sometimes the only cards i do have are my subclasses cards, my healing and protection cards (Doesn't really help when no one is hurt yet), or my barrages. I don't want get rid of any of these cards though, because they are actually pretty good cards!

Lvl 65

Gunner's Mate
May 02, 2009
210
Just because you place your powers in a certain order doesn't mean that they're always gonna appear in that order. The way the system works is that powers placed up higher on your list have a higher chance of appearing at the start of the fight, while powers lower on your list have a lower chance of appearing at the start of the fight.

Your opponents just got lucky with their powers and you just got unlucky with your powers, it happens sometimes.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
Yea I agree that the powers organizing thing does not really work as I thought it would. I realize that it says a "chance" of it arriving sooner and that is not a promise, but I sure would like it to affect the outcome a bit better. Otherwise what is the point of organizing them if it doesn't affect how they show up anyway?

Petty Officer
Sep 24, 2013
97
I always thought we should have at least one spell that would always show up no matter what, similar to our First Mate companion. Perhaps, they could add this feature in the next update and maybe expand it from 1 to 3. This way we get some control and don't lose the variety like you were saying.

Bosun
Oct 26, 2012
376
DuranteRamses87 on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
Sounds like your just sore because you lost at pvp. The request you made was made because it would benefit you personally. The game designers don't have to add anything because you think so. If you want to win create a strategy to do so. You can meet the challenge. Where is the fun if you win every time?

Dante Ramsey
A- I both won and lost. How do you know if am sore? (actually I don't care too much about winning or losing I care about learning from those who are better)

B- The request I made would not benefit me personally. It would benefit everyone

C-Of course the designers don't have to add anything, it's thier game and thier choice. In my opinion they must do it but in the end it's thier idea.

D-It would be a true victory if you beat someone who had thier spells in order, however being at a disadvantage in the first place may create one person to win or not.

Wicked Victor Armstrong that is a great idea! Perhaps having all spells coming in order is not good, but a few to maintain control and strategy that come in order is good. I would say the first 3 spells always come into battle at pvp.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2699
Golden Guardian on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
This is a massive problem in pvp, and can make one user have simple cheap victory over another. It's about buffs. I have beaten and been beaten another user simply because one user had thier spells in order and the other had thier spells in a barnyard order. I mean seriously for two battles my team hide (which is my first placed spell) did not appear until round 6 or 7, and by that time The opponent who had his spells in order beat me severely. Another time I beat a privateer because he never received his battle zeal or critical buff. These are cheap victories just because of buff placement. The oppositon did tell me after the battle if thier spells were in order or not.

These are my solutions:
A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, spells will come down in the order they are placed in, to not allow an advantage from one player over another.

This is not a feature I would like to be introduced, it must be introduced.
Sounds like a great idea. I don't do a lot of PvP but it only makes sense that in order to start on a level playing field your powers should show up in battle in the order you arrange them. That way it is my best against your best- sounds fair enough.

Or maybe at least you could be prompted to choose your 7 starting powers before each battle in PvP, kind of how you choose your companions. The rest of your powers could then appear randomly for the rest of the battle. That way you could set the best possible starting lineup but there would still be some unknown strategies that come into play. Although this might take too much time to do before every battle, but it is a thought.

I still think your idea is a great one though.

Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1246
I think powered should be like that the first 7 always appear because as a withcdoctor I want my ranged cursed spells first butdoesnt always happen
I under stand itencourages different tactics but it's annoying when you get widows touch inyour starting area even though it's last
Lvl26 withcdoctor honest darius oswald

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Like the idea, but if anything, it should be the opposite.
The best classes in pvp are arguably Privateers and witchdoctors (and musketeers sometimes).
They have at least 2 pages of powers, in most occassions 3.
To stop these classes totally owning melee classes (Swash and bucc), it should be random in pvp and more organized in PvE. Since a swashbuckler doesn't have much powers, this wont be a problem for them, and gives them a slight advantage that they lack in pvp. Same for a buccaneer, who are probably the worst performing pvp class. They barely get any powers, so this would be great for them.
If you don't think this is a good idea, then i think we should scrap the whole idea. If the first 7 always appeared, you know how easy that would be for Witchdoctors and privateers? They'd put their defense and their offensive powers, and probably get lucky with the rest. They'd easily beat any class with this rule implemented.
If anything, we should keep it as it is. Though i feel your pain, as a swash i put Levy Call as the first power in my loadout only not to get it until i'm at 700 health and the match is already lost.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2699
DuranteRamses87 on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
Sounds like your just sore because you lost at pvp. The request you made was made because it would benefit you personally. The game designers don't have to add anything because you think so. If you want to win create a strategy to do so. You can meet the challenge. Where is the fun if you win every time?

Dante Ramsey
To me it does not sound as though he is sore about losing at all- he is sore about organizing his powers to properly plan for strategies in PvP battles and having those strategies thrown out the window when no powers show up from the top of his organized list.

When one player has everything in order and wins and the other doesn't get any of their best powers it doesn't truly depict who the better pirate was in that battle- it just shows that one was more fortunate than the other when it comes to available powers. He was obviously just as sore about his pirate beating the other pirate so badly because he himself had the better powers drawn for that particular battle. His suggestion seems to imply that a reliable, consistent power draw from both pirate's organized lists, would just make for more competitive and enjoyable PvP matches for all parties.

It is very typical that when someone has a reasonable, legitimate objection to something that there is always someone who automatically says- you are just a sore loser. He wants the feature for all PvP participants, not just himself and there is nothing sore about that.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
160
Golden Guardian on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
This is a massive problem in pvp, and can make one user have simple cheap victory over another. It's about buffs. I have beaten and been beaten another user simply because one user had thier spells in order and the other had thier spells in a barnyard order. I mean seriously for two battles my team hide (which is my first placed spell) did not appear until round 6 or 7, and by that time The opponent who had his spells in order beat me severely. Another time I beat a privateer because he never received his battle zeal or critical buff. These are cheap victories just because of buff placement. The oppositon did tell me after the battle if thier spells were in order or not.

These are my solutions:
A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, spells will come down in the order they are placed in, to not allow an advantage from one player over another.

This is not a feature I would like to be introduced, it must be introduced.
No offense, but the OP just comes off a little whiney, and like a more intelligent way of saying, "He won because he planned better and i had bad luck!". Let me take a page from w101's pvp, or entire battle system, (thats right. i'm talking about wizard's pvp. we're getting to the REAL pvp fanatics) where you can arrange your spells any way you want, but you still have to deal with what you get, when you get it, and you don't get upset (well, you can, but it doesn't look very pretty). you want to grab your hidden spell, which i'm assuming you have one of, and you want to get this power out of an average power roster of 30. the normal pvp spell deck has about 60 spells. if i want to get that ace in the hole spell of mine first thing (judgement), and i have 2 of them in there then you have the same chance of judge showing up as hidden does. before you get your torches and pitchforks and charge at me with "but my spell was in the first slot, which means it has to come first," this isn't even close to true. Now, a common misconception, even for those who know this but just forget, is that the power setup doesn't work like the companion setup. you don't have a first mate spell which is always there for you. from my testing, your first slot spell comes at start about 20% of the time. this can be mirrored to the second companion slot's 20% appearance time, but if you think that means that it comes 20% percent of the battles, or in 1 out of every five battles, your more wrong than Malistare was when he thought killing everyone would revive his wife wrong (if my style of writing comes of as strange, watch game theory on youtube, i got the inspiration there. just watch one episode and you'll get why I'm writing like this). We're looking at a single pvp battle, one where in one battle, not one in every 5 battles, would it show up. if you take in the fact that i'm calculating for this one power to appear in any of the 7 power slots, and the 20% meaning that it must appear 1/5 times per box, it goes as such. (.20x.20)7, which equals 0.28, meaning that its chance of appearing in any of the boxes is about 30% when rounding up, which means it shows up about 1/3 of the time. thats better than the 1/5 chance we started off with, but not fantastic. it's pure opinion if that's a reliable number, but now for me to zoom out of fact mode, and into opinion mode.

People who play pvp competitively have learned to adapt with any combination of powers given, and with such a diverse power system as such, it isn't hard to be adaptable. and, if you aren't using a battle board in a house, you have plenty of stall time, and you should always have time filler buffs at the ready, like jujus, traps, shadowdance, or haste modifiers. pvp has become a game of setup, and whoever has the bugger and better buffs wins. and about your idea, saying it must be implimented does nothing but make you come of as demanding. and if you chose your powers, most of the mystery in pvp would be gone.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Dec 31, 2013 wrote:
To me it does not sound as though he is sore about losing at all- he is sore about organizing his powers to properly plan for strategies in PvP battles and having those strategies thrown out the window when no powers show up from the top of his organized list.

When one player has everything in order and wins and the other doesn't get any of their best powers it doesn't truly depict who the better pirate was in that battle- it just shows that one was more fortunate than the other when it comes to available powers. He was obviously just as sore about his pirate beating the other pirate so badly because he himself had the better powers drawn for that particular battle. His suggestion seems to imply that a reliable, consistent power draw from both pirate's organized lists, would just make for more competitive and enjoyable PvP matches for all parties.

It is very typical that when someone has a reasonable, legitimate objection to something that there is always someone who automatically says- you are just a sore loser. He wants the feature for all PvP participants, not just himself and there is nothing sore about that.
Extremely well said and thoroughly seconded.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
Elemutation on Dec 31, 2013 wrote:
No offense, but the OP just comes off a little whiney, and like a more intelligent way of saying, "He won because he planned better and i had bad luck!". Let me take a page from w101's pvp, or entire battle system, (thats right. i'm talking about wizard's pvp. we're getting to the REAL pvp fanatics) where you can arrange your spells any way you want, but you still have to deal with what you get, when you get it, and you don't get upset (well, you can, but it doesn't look very pretty). you want to grab your hidden spell, which i'm assuming you have one of, and you want to get this power out of an average power roster of 30. the normal pvp spell deck has about 60 spells. if i want to get that ace in the hole spell of mine first thing (judgement), and i have 2 of them in there then you have the same chance of judge showing up as hidden does. before you get your torches and pitchforks and charge at me with "but my spell was in the first slot, which means it has to come first," this isn't even close to true. Now, a common misconception, even for those who know this but just forget, is that the power setup doesn't work like the companion setup. you don't have a first mate spell which is always there for you. from my testing, your first slot spell comes at start about 20% of the time. this can be mirrored to the second companion slot's 20% appearance time, but if you think that means that it comes 20% percent of the battles, or in 1 out of every five battles, your more wrong than Malistare was when he thought killing everyone would revive his wife wrong (if my style of writing comes of as strange, watch game theory on youtube, i got the inspiration there. just watch one episode and you'll get why I'm writing like this). We're looking at a single pvp battle, one where in one battle, not one in every 5 battles, would it show up. if you take in the fact that i'm calculating for this one power to appear in any of the 7 power slots, and the 20% meaning that it must appear 1/5 times per box, it goes as such. (.20x.20)7, which equals 0.28, meaning that its chance of appearing in any of the boxes is about 30% when rounding up, which means it shows up about 1/3 of the time. thats better than the 1/5 chance we started off with, but not fantastic. it's pure opinion if that's a reliable number, but now for me to zoom out of fact mode, and into opinion mode.

People who play pvp competitively have learned to adapt with any combination of powers given, and with such a diverse power system as such, it isn't hard to be adaptable. and, if you aren't using a battle board in a house, you have plenty of stall time, and you should always have time filler buffs at the ready, like jujus, traps, shadowdance, or haste modifiers. pvp has become a game of setup, and whoever has the bugger and better buffs wins. and about your idea, saying it must be implimented does nothing but make you come of as demanding. and if you chose your powers, most of the mystery in pvp would be gone.
You have some very valid points along with some great math skills but I still do not think G.G. came off as even a little whiney. He just wants it to be fair for both players so that wins happen because or the players skill and not just the luck of the draw.

Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1246
DeathWiz101378 on Dec 30, 2013 wrote:
Like the idea, but if anything, it should be the opposite.
The best classes in pvp are arguably Privateers and witchdoctors (and musketeers sometimes).
They have at least 2 pages of powers, in most occassions 3.
To stop these classes totally owning melee classes (Swash and bucc), it should be random in pvp and more organized in PvE. Since a swashbuckler doesn't have much powers, this wont be a problem for them, and gives them a slight advantage that they lack in pvp. Same for a buccaneer, who are probably the worst performing pvp class. They barely get any powers, so this would be great for them.
If you don't think this is a good idea, then i think we should scrap the whole idea. If the first 7 always appeared, you know how easy that would be for Witchdoctors and privateers? They'd put their defense and their offensive powers, and probably get lucky with the rest. They'd easily beat any class with this rule implemented.
If anything, we should keep it as it is. Though i feel your pain, as a swash i put Levy Call as the first power in my loadout only not to get it until i'm at 700 health and the match is already lost.
Okay I see what you mean
I'm only lvl 27 so I don't know too much only gotten to cool ranch
But it should be first 7 in PvE

Captain
May 13, 2011
564
Golden Guardian on Dec 28, 2013 wrote:
This is a massive problem in pvp, and can make one user have simple cheap victory over another. It's about buffs. I have beaten and been beaten another user simply because one user had thier spells in order and the other had thier spells in a barnyard order. I mean seriously for two battles my team hide (which is my first placed spell) did not appear until round 6 or 7, and by that time The opponent who had his spells in order beat me severely. Another time I beat a privateer because he never received his battle zeal or critical buff. These are cheap victories just because of buff placement. The oppositon did tell me after the battle if thier spells were in order or not.

These are my solutions:
A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, spells will come down in the order they are placed in, to not allow an advantage from one player over another.

This is not a feature I would like to be introduced, it must be introduced.
no thanks. im a buc and in pvp i cant survive without buffs. dont cripple us just to benefit you

Bosun
Oct 26, 2012
376
DeathWiz101378 on Dec 30, 2013 wrote:
Like the idea, but if anything, it should be the opposite.
The best classes in pvp are arguably Privateers and witchdoctors (and musketeers sometimes).
They have at least 2 pages of powers, in most occassions 3.
To stop these classes totally owning melee classes (Swash and bucc), it should be random in pvp and more organized in PvE. Since a swashbuckler doesn't have much powers, this wont be a problem for them, and gives them a slight advantage that they lack in pvp. Same for a buccaneer, who are probably the worst performing pvp class. They barely get any powers, so this would be great for them.
If you don't think this is a good idea, then i think we should scrap the whole idea. If the first 7 always appeared, you know how easy that would be for Witchdoctors and privateers? They'd put their defense and their offensive powers, and probably get lucky with the rest. They'd easily beat any class with this rule implemented.
If anything, we should keep it as it is. Though i feel your pain, as a swash i put Levy Call as the first power in my loadout only not to get it until i'm at 700 health and the match is already lost.
Yes I stated somewhere earlier that Wicked Victor Armstrong (VWA) had a great idea. As you said the first 7 spells coming in order is not always the best but WVA suggested the great idea of implementing the first 3 spells for pvp will always come in to action. For those who have not read here is a new solution system based on VWA:

A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, the first 3 spells on the users powers list will always appear in PvP, to allow some control but still allow strategy to be explored.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
Sneaky George Quar... on Jan 1, 2014 wrote:
no thanks. im a buc and in pvp i cant survive without buffs. dont cripple us just to benefit you
He didn't say anything about taking away buffs. If buffs are what you need then with his proposed system, if you put your buffs in the first three slots then your much needed buffs will be there, every time. He just wants what you, specifically need ( and everyone is different ) to be there when you need it so that you don't lose or win a battle because you or your opponent didn't get the skills you needed to play well.

Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1246
Golden Guardian on Jan 2, 2014 wrote:
Yes I stated somewhere earlier that Wicked Victor Armstrong (VWA) had a great idea. As you said the first 7 spells coming in order is not always the best but WVA suggested the great idea of implementing the first 3 spells for pvp will always come in to action. For those who have not read here is a new solution system based on VWA:

A- Against the computer, spells can appear in any order to add variety and develop new strategies.
B- In PvP, the first 3 spells on the users powers list will always appear in PvP, to allow some control but still allow strategy to be explored.
in the end we do need a soloution because it can create a cheap victory for one other playe and this guy just found the soloution but now i can pone more people in pvp easily because id have my skeltons and spellsout first hen juju eveyrthing and use my mojo blade and reaver

Petty Officer
Sep 24, 2013
97
witchdoctor daruis on Jan 3, 2014 wrote:
in the end we do need a soloution because it can create a cheap victory for one other playe and this guy just found the soloution but now i can pone more people in pvp easily because id have my skeltons and spellsout first hen juju eveyrthing and use my mojo blade and reaver
Regardless, it would be what you deemed to be the best against what other pirates deemed to be the best for them. I don't see how you could 'pone people in PVP more easily', if anything it would be harder and more fair of a fight.

Admiral
Jun 02, 2013
1246
Wicked Victor Arms... on Jan 9, 2014 wrote:
Regardless, it would be what you deemed to be the best against what other pirates deemed to be the best for them. I don't see how you could 'pone people in PVP more easily', if anything it would be harder and more fair of a fight.
I was in pvp on my team I had a max musketeer and me the other team had a max buccaneer and a lvl 28 buccaneer he was my level
All of his companions charged forward I had two overwatch musketeers which wasn't nice I had the good spells up first and I easily poned him and would probably make it easy for witchdoctors I think

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Chrissy Th'Blesser on Jan 3, 2014 wrote:
He didn't say anything about taking away buffs. If buffs are what you need then with his proposed system, if you put your buffs in the first three slots then your much needed buffs will be there, every time. He just wants what you, specifically need ( and everyone is different ) to be there when you need it so that you don't lose or win a battle because you or your opponent didn't get the skills you needed to play well.
But what he said would indeed be crippling to buccaneers. What do they have, 11 powers by default? It would be no problem for them to get their buffs in pvp, and to gain a much needed advantage Versus witchdoctors with so much powers it would be impossible to find what they need on time. If it was organized (the first 7) then there would be 4 powers that would have to be random. That would provide an advantage to other classes whilst being neutral to buccaneers. And what's wrong with the system now? I do admit, it is annoying when i put Great Juju as my first power in the line-up and it doesn't show up until my companions are dead because i couldn't buff -_-. Maybe it should be like companions, showing the percentage and having a Firstmate power that has 100% chance of coming, then another with 99% then all the way to 50%, 48%, 46% etc. depending on how many powers you have.

Bosun
Jan 02, 2012
302
I've found the power on top of my deck frequently does not come up in the first round. In fact, if I really depend on a power to be one of the seven that come up in the first round, I make it my #2 card, and somehow it comes up much more reliably in the first round of PvP.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
Row4n412 on Jan 11, 2014 wrote:
I've found the power on top of my deck frequently does not come up in the first round. In fact, if I really depend on a power to be one of the seven that come up in the first round, I make it my #2 card, and somehow it comes up much more reliably in the first round of PvP.
That's a great tip. Thank you.

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