Alex Hawkins on Apr 27, 2015 wrote:

You are hearing from Swashbucklers who PvP. I am one of those Swashbucklers, so is The Loyal Swashbuckler above. Most players, Swashbuckler or not, who have dueled enough times since the hidden change will tell you that Black Fog is too strong. But lets leave the PvP behind and talk PvE.

If you want "direct" proof of how a Swashbuckler can easily solo the Tower or the Smuggler's Arena, I'm willing to meet up with you and run my Swashbuckler through both dungeons as you watch on the side. I gave you a specific example of why Black Fog makes PvE a joke, it allows a class to solo the two dungeons that are supposed to be the most challenging in the game.

You know how simple it is to Black Fog your whole team the first turn and know that the PvE mobs won't be attacking you at all for a good 5 turns? Is not like in PvP where the player can AoE you, if your whole team is hidden the PvE mobs will just move around the board with no one to attack. In those 5 turns I can shield myself, buff myself, place my companions in just the right spot, etc. all without taking a single hit in damage from the mobs. Then the turn before Fog runs out, I just one shot most of the mobs with hidden assassin strikes or hidden super criticals from my companions. Its too easy and too mindless to PvE as a Swashbuckler once you obtain Black Fog.

I am talking from experience doing PvE on how broken Black Fog is. I have ran the tower a combined 75 times with my main account. Have ran the Smuggler's Arena about 15-20 times as well to its completion. Ever since the gear was made trade-able I only use my Swashbuckler to run the Tower because of just how easy it is with Black Fog compared to other classes. Even in the floor where the mobs are supposed to have scent and sneaky sneaky, is too easy to maneuver around them. Kingsisle would have to give every enemy in future worlds Scent 2 or 3 to make the game difficult for Swashbucklers with black fog.

I have a friend who does this as well. He in addition to the powers of black fog he also has blood's jacket and the swashbuckler's banner. He can solo everything and won't run the arena with me because I'll slow him down. I must admit its true. I'm a support character but he doesn't need it. He has the ability to raise his agility, criticals, and place a fort on his own. While I can stack these for him he still doesn't need it. (I must admit I feel a little useless to this class) PvE is very boring for him. Also I see that people are using the class more this way to breeze through especially since items are tradable. I am still against removing this power since it is a swashbuckler's signature move but it is not up to me. If Ratbeard likes it then we must accept his decision.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Many of you have made valid points and I thank you for contributing to this thread ( yes, even you, zuto ).
The thing is, many of you complaining about BF are making out that SBs are some sort of un-stoppable monster! Now this is not my experience at all!
So this leaves me questioning my skill and strategies, because I can't solo the Tower using exclusively BF or any hides; and the Arena mostly makes me lose most of my companions, if not the match.
I believe myself to be an average, competent player; also I don't do so very badly in pvp.
How is BF to be reduced? Rounds as Battle Zeal was? Take away the x 2 damage? I just see this as an un-necessary weakening of the SB class.
A better defense against Hide? There may be a possibility there, since Scent seems less than desirable, how about a different power?
More from me when I've done some thinking......

DuranteRamses87 on Apr 30, 2015 wrote:

I thought there wasn't going to be any powers created specifically to combat powers. I admire you Esperanza for trying to come to a diplomatic solution that will please everybody but you must understand the final decisions about this game and things that should be added to it are not ours to make. The developers have already decided on this topic but are allowing voices to be heard. There are other threads as well about players complaining about other aspects of the game such as wounds and bed rests for companions, and there were arguments about valor's fortress, and Leviathan's Call in the past among other things. There are going to be some aspects of the game that are designed by the developers which are meant to be difficult or strategically altering and players may not like it and cry foul. But there are times when it is actually a disservice to equal the playing field. if you constantly lower challenges instead of rising to meet them you create a mindset of people who are incapable of pushing themselves to the next level and not only that, they don't think they have to. It creates a mindset of entitlement that stunts growth. I know submitting to authority is very hard for people now a days but you must trust that the creators of this game have the best interest of the players at heart and create things with the understanding that they know how they want it to play out. I know it sounds harsh and not everybody is going to like it but sometimes you just have to say well that's just too bad.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

I was framing my last post as a way of making suggestions ( not demands ) as to how to satisfy many players who believe that SB have been dealt a super powered hand with no way of meeting the challenge of hides.
This is somewhat like being given a herring and told to cut down the tallest tree in the forest.
I know you subscribe to the 'survival of the fittest' mind set; yet you must bear in mind that this is a GAME, generally played by young kids ( although it also appeals to adults ).
If a game just generates frustration, it ceases to be FUN. If the players are suffering frustration in pvp, and see a certain class zipping through pve because of a certain power; where is the fun?
An even playing field, especially in ranked pvp, is, I'm sure of interest to Ratbeard and all the developers at KI.

anecorbie on Apr 30, 2015 wrote:

I was framing my last post as a way of making suggestions ( not demands ) as to how to satisfy many players who believe that SB have been dealt a super powered hand with no way of meeting the challenge of hides.
This is somewhat like being given a herring and told to cut down the tallest tree in the forest.
I know you subscribe to the 'survival of the fittest' mind set; yet you must bear in mind that this is a GAME, generally played by young kids ( although it also appeals to adults ).
If a game just generates frustration, it ceases to be FUN. If the players are suffering frustration in pvp, and see a certain class zipping through pve because of a certain power; where is the fun?
An even playing field, especially in ranked pvp, is, I'm sure of interest to Ratbeard and all the developers at KI.

And the fact that it is a GAME offers the perfect opportunity for them to learn how to meet challenges because in a game you can try again but in many real life situations you cannot. I think it's important to allow a platform like this to help kids learn how to think creatively and to come up with situations to help themselves. You can't be around to protect kids from every failure in life. The best places for them to test their limits are in games and in school where mistakes are allowed and fixable. Yes, it's supposed to be fun and it is but there is also the joy of rising to meet a challenge and the satisfaction it brings. I push the players of this game a lot because I believe they can do it. I have seen them do it and I've helped a lot of them do it. Nobody wants them to win more than I do. I have done a number of battles at tough odds with them in the tower and when we pulled out a victory you know what the response was...."Thanks that was great!" or "I didn't think we could do it now I know it can be done." But believe me there were a lot of people I had to convince to keep going because when things got tough they were afraid to try. But when they did they were grateful.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

anecorbie on May 1, 2015 wrote:

So I see this is NOT the problem of hides or BF in pvp or pve, but a combination of hide with certain gear from drops or bought with crowns and scrip, that is making thing easy for the SB and difficult for everyone else.
If you look at the post objectively, you'll realize this, too.
Quoting from Dante Ramesy, "I have a friend who does this too.. in addition to bf, he has Blood's Jacket and the swashbuckler's banner...."
Hide isn't the problem, it's OP gear.

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the fact other classes can get the OP gear, yet don't have the success in PvE that Swashbucklers do. Blood's Jacket is the single best PvE piece of gear out there, there is no arguing that. The flames do upwards of 1000+ damage each. However, even with the flames, only Swashbucklers have such an easy time soloing most content in the game.

The argument a lot of people use when discussing Black Fog is that you can still be hit by AoE attacks. In PvE, if your whole team is hidden, the enemy mobs won't even AoE you at all. This allows you to ignore the mobs for 5 turns while you prep and put down the flames, put down some buffs and move you companions around. And if this ultimate defense wasn't enough, you then get to x2 damage against enemies when you attack them. This is where the problem with Black Fog lies. Is the ultimate defense tool and the ultimate damage boost for your team.

With or without Blood's Jacket flames I can solo the tower and the arena. I don't have the Swashbuckler's banner, so can't comment on that, but from what I have heard it is not that strong at all. All I need as a Swashbuckler is Black Fog and strong companions to solo most content. After a goof BF combo with my learned Assassin Strike and my companions' critical strikes with relentless and bladestorm, most enemies are dead before they even touch me.

I wouldn't want Black Fog completely removed though. There are some good ideas thrown out there to make Black fog x1.5 damage instead of x2 or to reduce the duration to 3 turns. With either of those changes, Black Fog would still be pretty strong but it wouldn't be as unstoppable as it currently is. If you look at the most recent replies to this thread, you will see most people coming to the thread are all saying the same thing now. Black fog is too strong. The single hiddens are okay, but a team-wide hide in its current iteration is a bit too much for both PvP and PvE.

DuranteRamses87 on May 1, 2015 wrote:

I don't understand why you would want to open this discussion with this strong argument. Get the developer's agreement that they don't see BF as a problem and not go away happy. First your saying BF is not to be touched. Then you change to well maybe it should and then you change to it's not the problem the gear is. It seems to me you don't really know what you believe or your afraid to have an unpopular opinion. Now your fighting for a nerf of something...anything really. You don't need to feel like you have to solve this problem. If the developers see an unbalance here they will take an action they deem appropriate. Please do yourself a favor and let this go.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Ok, continue without me.
post edit: There's nothing like the feeling of being stabbed in the back by a friend; I opened this post in the hope that we could have a discussion on 'Hides'. All my experience in pve and pvp has proved to me that 'hide' is an awesome power, I enjoy using it. BUT I only use it when absolutely necessary; it isn't my 'go-to' power.
If other people's experience is otherwise; it isn't the fault of a single power, but the problem of the ones who disagree with me that 'hides' are not OP.
It is your mind-set that causes your victory or defeat, I don't care any more.....

DuranteRamses87 on May 1, 2015 wrote:

I don't understand why you would want to open this discussion with this strong argument. Get the developer's agreement that they don't see BF as a problem and not go away happy. First your saying BF is not to be touched. Then you change to well maybe it should and then you change to it's not the problem the gear is. It seems to me you don't really know what you believe or your afraid to have an unpopular opinion. Now your fighting for a nerf of something...anything really. You don't need to feel like you have to solve this problem. If the developers see an unbalance here they will take an action they deem appropriate. Please do yourself a favor and let this go.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

The developers value feedback and suggestions from the players. People are using this forum to point out problems with the current version of Black Fog and are providing ideas for improving these problems. Its not like we have to just leave it all to the developers without providing feedback. Of course its up to them to make the actual changes, but it doesnt hurt to give suggestions to them.

stormy quentin ver... on May 3, 2015 wrote:

PVE in general can be easy for all classes, but in this discussion, we were specifically referring to the Tower and Smugglers Arena being easy for swashbucklers to solo with Black Fog. Other classes can do it also with good gear/strategy/companions and sometimes doubloons, but swashbucklers have a much easier time thanks to Black Fog

I struggle in the tower (soloing specifically) FAR more with my swash than any other character. in fact, I'd wager that most posters here talking about BF have never attempted to solo the tower as a swash. here is what happens on most any floor, if there is a turn where the enemy has no available target: BUFF CITY. it is ESPECIALLY bad on the 9th and 10th floor, where those statues will put up 50% shields. As for the smugglers arena, i wouldnt know about it. I have never purchased the gauntlet, as its not the most efficient way to earn scrip . . . that said, I imagine they have some powerful buffs too.

as for PvP:
I am a very do-it-yourself person, but I will give each class a little tip here just because there appear to be lots of posters who want their problem solved, but don't want to solve it.

Musketeer: Lay traps like crazy, and use ratbeard (with hold the line trained, naturally) to slow any hidden attacker and damage them as much as possible. if you have any gear that gives shield, you it either on your squishiest or on your tank.

WitchDoctor: Yeah, I haven't finished my witch yet. I'll get back to you.

Privateer: shield, shield, shield. if your entire opponents team is hidden, use battle zeal so they struggle getting combos on you. Note: I see a lot of Privy's that like to get in the thick of things . . . that is not a good idea. hang back, buff, shield, and heal.

Buccaneer: shield yourself and go get in their face. if you can get a buck team shielded and forward, the enemy will have to use that hide, and only do regular damage to you.

A repeat, for all classes: get a scent pet, and use A heavy tank with hold the line to slow them down.

It would be lovely to get Ratbeard (HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK) to post here and share his opinion. like it or not, we are all biased as players; and only a developer can look at this truly impartially.

Blixet on May 4, 2015 wrote:

I struggle in the tower (soloing specifically) FAR more with my swash than any other character. in fact, I'd wager that most posters here talking about BF have never attempted to solo the tower as a swash. here is what happens on most any floor, if there is a turn where the enemy has no available target: BUFF CITY. it is ESPECIALLY bad on the 9th and 10th floor, where those statues will put up 50% shields. As for the smugglers arena, i wouldnt know about it. I have never purchased the gauntlet, as its not the most efficient way to earn scrip . . . that said, I imagine they have some powerful buffs too.

as for PvP:
I am a very do-it-yourself person, but I will give each class a little tip here just because there appear to be lots of posters who want their problem solved, but don't want to solve it.

Musketeer: Lay traps like crazy, and use ratbeard (with hold the line trained, naturally) to slow any hidden attacker and damage them as much as possible. if you have any gear that gives shield, you it either on your squishiest or on your tank.

WitchDoctor: Yeah, I haven't finished my witch yet. I'll get back to you.

Privateer: shield, shield, shield. if your entire opponents team is hidden, use battle zeal so they struggle getting combos on you. Note: I see a lot of Privy's that like to get in the thick of things . . . that is not a good idea. hang back, buff, shield, and heal.

Buccaneer: shield yourself and go get in their face. if you can get a buck team shielded and forward, the enemy will have to use that hide, and only do regular damage to you.

A repeat, for all classes: get a scent pet, and use A heavy tank with hold the line to slow them down.

It would be lovely to get Ratbeard (HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK) to post here and share his opinion. like it or not, we are all biased as players; and only a developer can look at this truly impartially.

I have attempted to solo the Tower as a swash ( to date 5 times ). My best record was making it to floor 7, when I was defeated by the corrupted musketeers ( stupid burst fire! ). I lost 6 companions to bed-rest. I don't know how I would've fared against the Nef-5, but I consider this proof that 'hides' aren't what makes the Tower solo-able for a swash, but also gear.

DuranteRamses87 on May 4, 2015 wrote:

Esperanza's original argument was to stop people complaining about black fog being over powered. She wanted reassurance that it was not. She got that reassurance. Unfortunately it was blown up into way more than that. It's not fair to decide a nerfing of class powers based on the views of a few very loud people. The pieces in this argument were all laid out and it is getting to the point where its no longer constructive. It's time to let those in charge review it. It is also time to accept that if they decide not to then that is their right.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

(...cont'd)

When there are multiple arguments over a shared aspect or idea or system, it is imperative to look at all sides of the argument. Sure you may not agree, disagree vehemently, alter your own viewpoint and/or even create brand new issues and open them up for discussion. I would imagine that when it comes to an aspect of the game that has caused issues among and for players, that KI, Ratbeard and the developers would like to get a good bearing on what players think and feel. Sure there may only be a "few very loud people" stopping in, but you can bet that they represent a larger part of the community and PvP enthusiasts. Just as Esperanza's thoughts and opinions are surely a representation of a much larger group.

As long as a discussion/argument is still brewing, then it still holds some constructive value. As long as no hostilities are shown, well it still holds a purpose. Perhaps that 'A-Ha' factor is still out there that may help "those in charge" come to a fitting resolution or just stand put. Further discussion, if kept civil, may or may not be what produces that factor and moment. A better solution just may come from further discussion and sharing of viewpoints, perhaps?

Blixet on May 4, 2015 wrote:

I struggle in the tower (soloing specifically) FAR more with my swash than any other character. in fact, I'd wager that most posters here talking about BF have never attempted to solo the tower as a swash. here is what happens on most any floor, if there is a turn where the enemy has no available target: BUFF CITY. it is ESPECIALLY bad on the 9th and 10th floor, where those statues will put up 50% shields. As for the smugglers arena, i wouldnt know about it. I have never purchased the gauntlet, as its not the most efficient way to earn scrip . . . that said, I imagine they have some powerful buffs too.

as for PvP:
I am a very do-it-yourself person, but I will give each class a little tip here just because there appear to be lots of posters who want their problem solved, but don't want to solve it.

Musketeer: Lay traps like crazy, and use ratbeard (with hold the line trained, naturally) to slow any hidden attacker and damage them as much as possible. if you have any gear that gives shield, you it either on your squishiest or on your tank.

WitchDoctor: Yeah, I haven't finished my witch yet. I'll get back to you.

Privateer: shield, shield, shield. if your entire opponents team is hidden, use battle zeal so they struggle getting combos on you. Note: I see a lot of Privy's that like to get in the thick of things . . . that is not a good idea. hang back, buff, shield, and heal.

Buccaneer: shield yourself and go get in their face. if you can get a buck team shielded and forward, the enemy will have to use that hide, and only do regular damage to you.

A repeat, for all classes: get a scent pet, and use A heavy tank with hold the line to slow them down.

It would be lovely to get Ratbeard (HINT HINT NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK) to post here and share his opinion. like it or not, we are all biased as players; and only a developer can look at this truly impartially.

As for the PvP aspect, those things are much easier said than done. Is not like your Swashbuckler enemy is not expecting many of those things themselves.

As Swash vs Musketeer - Traps mean nothing unless is Tempest of Torpedos. With a valor fortress on myself, I just simply walk through all the traps and take barely any damage with Alert + Fortress. All the time you are spending on traps that do very little damage to me are turns you are not spending buffing or shielding yourself. Once I get through your traps, I can one shot at least 2 of your companions. Ratbeard does nothing because if you are hidden hold the line doesn't affect you.

As Swash vs Witch - Simply move just outside their range, black fog and rush them. Unlike Musketeers, they don't have traps to worry about. Only becomes a difficult match-up when facing the scorpions + banner + tide strat.

As Swash vs Privateer - If you want to spend 4 fortress shielding each of your companions when I black fog, be my guest. Too easy to wait them out and now with barely any fortress left, the match up is easy with or without fog. To be fair, I do think Privy is probably the most adept at taking on Swashbucklers with fog if played right.

As Swash vs Buccaneer - Probably one of the most sided match ups unless the Swash doesn't get fog first turn and you rush them. Once fogged, the Buc can do almost nothing.

As Swash vs all classes - All I need to do is one shot 2 of your companions with Black Fog + Assassin Strike/Critical Strikes from Companions. Once it is 4v2, the game is pretty much already won. Specially since you can just go hidden again and keep the hidden + assassin pressure up.

Scent on pet is nothing but a minor nuisance. Since your opponent can't control their pets, the pet is very easy to move around. Nothing that will cost you the game unless you are careless. Hold the Line or other talents won't affect you while hidden, so no worries there.

zuto4011a on May 4, 2015 wrote:

i can back the hidden buff thing up for you using a pvp I had last night with luis and dashing leo ironside(you remember mason right?) they were doing a 1v1 leo and luis but I hopped on and it turned into a 2v1 amongst friends, near the end of the game when all his summons from his bear and doubloons were dead he hid for 5 rounds, on the 4th round of moving 3 of the 7 terrorcotta used leviathans call while the other 4 continued to move around

Thanks Robert, I knew they could but it's a bit rarer than the warriors moving. As you said yourself, it wasn't until the 4th round of moving that they used Levy, and not even all of them did.

I just finished soloing the tower on my Swash and the only time any mob used buffs was on the 10th floor when 2 out of 6 warriors used Levy pretty late into the battle when their only target was me and I was hidden. It happens for sure, but doesn't happen often enough to justify not using Fog whenever you can. If mobs/summons/pets were programmed to always use any buff they had instead of moving around when they have no targets to attack, then it would be a different story.

I do want to make clear though that while I have these strong feelings on hiddens, specially Black Fog, being a bit too strong, I wouldn't want hides to go back to what they were before either. Hides before the change were pretty useless. I'm glad that a mechanic so integral to the Swashbuckler class was changed and made useful. The problem is that I think it was a bit too big of a buff.

With the single hiddens, while strong, are not strong enough that I think they need to be nerfed. Walk in Darkness and Walk in Shadows are fine as they are imo. For Black Fog, I think KI should look into either reducing the duration (from 5 turns to 3 turns) OR changing the damage buff from x2 to x1.5.

With the first idea, it would prevent people from being able to just black fog first turn and walking all across the map. It would still be doable with 3 turn black fog, but it would be much harder to pull off and give the opponent more room for counterplay. It wouldn't even change the effectiveness of Black Fog in PvE much, with 3 turns of your whole team hidden you can still do a LOT against mobs.

With the second idea, it would dial down the potential for a Swash hidden team to kill 2 or more of the opponent's companions. It would still put a huge dent on the enemy team, but it wouldn't be as oppressive as it is now.

Blixet on May 4, 2015 wrote:

hmm. Its clear that you are considerably more experienced in the game than I, and have participated in more PvP. I haven't been doing much of anything but training my witch and the occasional tower run lately, so perhaps hold the line stopping someone with hide was a pre-hide-update thing, or perhaps I just Imagined it. As for Musketeer Traps, and Swash's alert talent . . . Personally, I think Alert should be removed or significantly nerfed. I would have mentioned that, but i thought it was a topic for another thread. Additionally, I've always personally thought that pets should be under the player's direct command . . . but that is also a topic for another thread.

As for the Tower and buffs, I did in fact misspeak, er, mistype? anyway, It has been my (limited) experience soloing that has ended up with the pig necromancers buffing agility/will/strength if no targets are available. Outside of that, (and the shielding clay statues) and Faye, nobody truly buffs that much. I apologize for the exaggeration.

You're right 'hide' does ignore Hold the Line, cheap shot and repel boarders. In my experience in the Tower 50+ runs, the pigs on floor three will attack the statues if there are no targets for them.
Why should Alert be nerfed? If I'm forced to go through traps, I'd better have a way to not get slaughtered completely. I would prefer to Jump over them, think about it - I can jump from ship to ship and over obstacles; why can't I just jump over a trap?