Witch Hunter Change must be addressed

1
AuthorMessage
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Long story short, I just tested the changes to witch hunter and noted the following:

Reduce Weapon power is gone (as expected)

There is NO display of increased/decreased incoming damage (will we be able to see this effect in live realm?)

While there is no visual display of the -50% incoming damage noted, the damage calculations are still present.

The properties are otherwise identical as before, however this presents another HUGE problem for witchdoctors, as this now applies to universal damage, as opposed to only physical damage (weapon power) before. This wouldn't become a problem at all if the new -50% incoming to talent-holder applied ONLY to physical damage, though I do not know the thought process behind this decision. Regardless though, I can guarantee that there will be a very unhappy pvp community with the current mechanics of witch hunter in test realm (as of 9/28/16).

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Wolf SkullRider on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Long story short, I just tested the changes to witch hunter and noted the following:

Reduce Weapon power is gone (as expected)

There is NO display of increased/decreased incoming damage (will we be able to see this effect in live realm?)

While there is no visual display of the -50% incoming damage noted, the damage calculations are still present.

The properties are otherwise identical as before, however this presents another HUGE problem for witchdoctors, as this now applies to universal damage, as opposed to only physical damage (weapon power) before. This wouldn't become a problem at all if the new -50% incoming to talent-holder applied ONLY to physical damage, though I do not know the thought process behind this decision. Regardless though, I can guarantee that there will be a very unhappy pvp community with the current mechanics of witch hunter in test realm (as of 9/28/16).
Yes, this just seems unfair. why give other classes the ability to reduce damage from spell and wand attacks, in addition to being able to land hits and chains on the witch doctor? This creats. a lot of imbalance in pvp because once a witch is near a musket or adjacent to a melee oponent, they are often unable to attack due to the risk of being killed by witch hunter, and now all of their attacks would be even weaker as well.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Where the changes to witch-hunter made in response to the feedback of players frustrated over the impact that scratch's spell power buff? If so then I think a better solution should be found this change literally just forces one to get near a witch to be near witch-hunter range and doesn't remove the issue of the Over-powered Big guns, Huge Armors etc.

Ensign
Nov 19, 2014
8
stormy quentin ver... on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Yes, this just seems unfair. why give other classes the ability to reduce damage from spell and wand attacks, in addition to being able to land hits and chains on the witch doctor? This creats. a lot of imbalance in pvp because once a witch is near a musket or adjacent to a melee oponent, they are often unable to attack due to the risk of being killed by witch hunter, and now all of their attacks would be even weaker as well.
I agree (haven't never use mine weapon staff) been long long time (Now Use More Of Mix Weapon with Staffy) mix weapon more mine favor (don't fizzle) I don't care about talent of main staff use "even no card* because improved mojo blast fizzle to much (doesn't want to others talent)

Developer
Hmm... The intended effect (after witch hunter triggers) is to reduce incoming damage to the talent holder from magic attacks.

It should preserve the ability of the WD to damage other targets at full power.

I can't *quite* tell from your report what's happening.

Developer
Sunny Wolf on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Where the changes to witch-hunter made in response to the feedback of players frustrated over the impact that scratch's spell power buff? If so then I think a better solution should be found this change literally just forces one to get near a witch to be near witch-hunter range and doesn't remove the issue of the Over-powered Big guns, Huge Armors etc.
No, it's because the talent still isn't doing exactly what I'd like it to be doing.

Having it reduce the attacker's damage stat worked just fine in PVE (because mobs don't use spells much, and deal damage via their DAMAGE stat) but terrible in PvP (because players don't use weapons much and deal damage via their SPELL POWER stat).

I can get around that problem by making the talent reduce incoming damage from magic sources (whether the attack is weapon or spell).

This will mean that the talent owner is better protected (from the WD as well as any magic-using companions) but it won't make the witch deal less damage to targets that aren't witch hunters.

Balancing the witch doctor for PvP is difficult, as you might suspect, as the witch doctor has been balanced with both advantages and disadvantages primarily against PvE (for example, lots of big AoE and very few enemies designed to resist your powers). A lot of those advantages go away in PvP, and a lot of your disadvantages are easier for thinking opponents to exploit.

I'm still working to help you guys out; I'm not happy with a status quo where only a small handful of players are able to master this class in PvP.

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Ratbeard on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Hmm... The intended effect (after witch hunter triggers) is to reduce incoming damage to the talent holder from magic attacks.

It should preserve the ability of the WD to damage other targets at full power.

I can't *quite* tell from your report what's happening.
If I'm reading this right, then you are saying that if a WD used mojo reaver on a buccaneer with witch hunter trained, the buccaneer would:

1- Be able to chain off of that witch hunter with relentless and possible blade storms dealing significant damage,

and

2- After that fact, take half of the damage they would have from the mojo reaver than if the WD dodged the witch hunter.

Please correct me if this would be inaccurate because if this is the way it was intended to work, the WD class might as well be extinct in PvP.

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Yes, this just seems unfair. why give other classes the ability to reduce damage from spell and wand attacks, in addition to being able to land hits and chains on the witch doctor? This creats. a lot of imbalance in pvp because once a witch is near a musket or adjacent to a melee oponent, they are often unable to attack due to the risk of being killed by witch hunter, and now all of their attacks would be even weaker as well.
Why?

Because not everything is designed around you fine folks in the PvP community.

Simple answer, but true.

Remember the satyrs?

Of course, knowing me and my soft heart... I'll break down and nerf Witch Hunter for you...

...right before you visit Darkmoor...

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Why?

Because not everything is designed around you fine folks in the PvP community.

Simple answer, but true.

Remember the satyrs?

Of course, knowing me and my soft heart... I'll break down and nerf Witch Hunter for you...

...right before you visit Darkmoor...
Ratbeard, I dont understand this. You are basically saying "too bad" if witch doctors are handicapped in PVP. I would think that PVP is more general now than before rank became available. Its not just limited to central PVP players.

Its not like a whole lot has to be changed. I had suggested in the past to make witch hunter only work with combination weapons (staffy/melee or staffy/musket) or alternatively give me, as a witchdoctor, the ability to do a wand attack on a melee or musket enemy before they can hit me, and allow that hit to reduce the damage that I take to 50%. Or just ban witches from PVP so they can avoid the constant frustration.

Ensign
Jul 12, 2016
41
Ratbeard on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
No, it's because the talent still isn't doing exactly what I'd like it to be doing.

Having it reduce the attacker's damage stat worked just fine in PVE (because mobs don't use spells much, and deal damage via their DAMAGE stat) but terrible in PvP (because players don't use weapons much and deal damage via their SPELL POWER stat).

I can get around that problem by making the talent reduce incoming damage from magic sources (whether the attack is weapon or spell).

This will mean that the talent owner is better protected (from the WD as well as any magic-using companions) but it won't make the witch deal less damage to targets that aren't witch hunters.

Balancing the witch doctor for PvP is difficult, as you might suspect, as the witch doctor has been balanced with both advantages and disadvantages primarily against PvE (for example, lots of big AoE and very few enemies designed to resist your powers). A lot of those advantages go away in PvP, and a lot of your disadvantages are easier for thinking opponents to exploit.

I'm still working to help you guys out; I'm not happy with a status quo where only a small handful of players are able to master this class in PvP.
Sorry, but I see no reason why other classes need special protection from magic based attacks (especially when there is no melee counter part to this epic, but that's besides the point). Witch hunt previously already allowed an opponent to chain off of our one attack, which was a serious problem strategically wise. Now, ALL of my attacks that get a witch hunt reduce will be halved, which now basically perma-forts an entire classification of attacks by a class which was never complained about or overpowered in any way (except POSSIBLY mojo buffs, but even then, that is not a witch specific problem...).

The way this power is at the moment, it will mean the destruction of the witchdoctor class, and i'm not exaggerating. Our signature power, mojo reaver, will do nothing now vs anyone with witch hunter, as the reduce will nullify it every time. 2 possible proposals are to either revert witch hunter to how it was before, which would be perfectly fine, or to change witch hunt so that you only receive protection from weapon power damage. This would be fine as well. Otherwise, witch is unfortunately toast.

I know this sounds ranty lol, but as a pretty good witch, this update is very concerning to me.

Charming Talon Sharp, level 70

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
I just wonder... does your player do anything when your witch hunter triggers?

Like does it break hide like before..?

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
TalonThundercloud on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Sorry, but I see no reason why other classes need special protection from magic based attacks (especially when there is no melee counter part to this epic, but that's besides the point). Witch hunt previously already allowed an opponent to chain off of our one attack, which was a serious problem strategically wise. Now, ALL of my attacks that get a witch hunt reduce will be halved, which now basically perma-forts an entire classification of attacks by a class which was never complained about or overpowered in any way (except POSSIBLY mojo buffs, but even then, that is not a witch specific problem...).

The way this power is at the moment, it will mean the destruction of the witchdoctor class, and i'm not exaggerating. Our signature power, mojo reaver, will do nothing now vs anyone with witch hunter, as the reduce will nullify it every time. 2 possible proposals are to either revert witch hunter to how it was before, which would be perfectly fine, or to change witch hunt so that you only receive protection from weapon power damage. This would be fine as well. Otherwise, witch is unfortunately toast.

I know this sounds ranty lol, but as a pretty good witch, this update is very concerning to me.

Charming Talon Sharp, level 70
Very well stated. I think this further suports my suggestion of banning witches from PVP so that things can be balanced (since we are now so limited compared to the other classes). It will be the easiest solution

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Ratbeard, I dont understand this. You are basically saying "too bad" if witch doctors are handicapped in PVP. I would think that PVP is more general now than before rank became available. Its not just limited to central PVP players.

Its not like a whole lot has to be changed. I had suggested in the past to make witch hunter only work with combination weapons (staffy/melee or staffy/musket) or alternatively give me, as a witchdoctor, the ability to do a wand attack on a melee or musket enemy before they can hit me, and allow that hit to reduce the damage that I take to 50%. Or just ban witches from PVP so they can avoid the constant frustration.
Ratbeard, I dont understand this. You are basically saying "too bad" if witch doctors are handicapped in PVP.

I'm not saying anything of the sort.

The question was, to paraphrase, "Why is witch hunter so good?" and the answer is, "Because it's really helpful in PvE."

It's the only talent that you can take and have it trigger regardless of your class and weapon combination. It is designed specifically to ease players through the game content.

This game is not designed around PvP. You guys are important to us (and frankly, to me personally, if I may say so) but you are not the first or only consideration.

To the extent that I have said anything regarding Witchdoctors and your PvP experience, it has consistently been, "I hear you, let me see what I can do."

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
TalonThundercloud on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Sorry, but I see no reason why other classes need special protection from magic based attacks (especially when there is no melee counter part to this epic, but that's besides the point). Witch hunt previously already allowed an opponent to chain off of our one attack, which was a serious problem strategically wise. Now, ALL of my attacks that get a witch hunt reduce will be halved, which now basically perma-forts an entire classification of attacks by a class which was never complained about or overpowered in any way (except POSSIBLY mojo buffs, but even then, that is not a witch specific problem...).

The way this power is at the moment, it will mean the destruction of the witchdoctor class, and i'm not exaggerating. Our signature power, mojo reaver, will do nothing now vs anyone with witch hunter, as the reduce will nullify it every time. 2 possible proposals are to either revert witch hunter to how it was before, which would be perfectly fine, or to change witch hunt so that you only receive protection from weapon power damage. This would be fine as well. Otherwise, witch is unfortunately toast.

I know this sounds ranty lol, but as a pretty good witch, this update is very concerning to me.

Charming Talon Sharp, level 70
That is not necessarily true after testing it out with a couple of friend we've gone over the scenarios and interactions with primarily Soul shroud.

As most witches will be using soul shroud since it gives both damage and sustain we've discovered when soul shroud triggers witch hunter will only half that damage.

witchdoctor uses mojo reaver -> Enemy pirates witch hunter triggers -> witch hunter lands -> other epics trigger (relentless, burst fire, etc.) -> witctdoctor drops into Soul shroud range -> soul shroud triggers -> soul shroud does 50% damage -> Mojo reaver does Full damage.

Note testing it with witchunter 2 has the same scenario if 2-3 witch hunters trigger in the same chain only the first spell going through will take the -50% damage reduction.

From my experience this impacts the sustainability of privateers more than witchdoctors as one of privies main strategies come late game is to fort and let Soul shroud do damage and bring you back in the game. This change does 2 things I think. Privateers that use a staffy variant will lose damage and a lot of their sustain also makes melee privateers a lot better because now you can use assassin's strike without worry of the -50% weapon reduction.

Ensign
Nov 11, 2008
26
With Witch Hunter as powerful as it is, what is the point of Intuition? (Not that there are enough Witchdoctor companions to actually utilize Intuition).
Why does Witch Hunter have a debuff at all? No other epic talent gets a utility effect until Rank 3.

Petty Officer
Mar 31, 2016
57
Why not either:

1. Make it so that witch hunter, a spooky-based attack, doesn't trigger melee epics or even Musketeer epics.

2. Make it so that witch hunter can't be triggered, as quentin suggested, by any weapon but a staffy based weapon or staffy combo weapon.

Speaking of Pvp, why not also unban the WD power charm? I understood banning charming gaze, but you said it yourself Ratbeard, There's a difference between banning the power from a special piece of gear and a school's power. If Hide gets that excuse, overpowered as it is, why doesn't Charm? I don't see any other school power banned from Pvp at the moment besides Witchdoctors, whose WD companions struggle with having less than half the accuracy of every other companion, Bad range (3 for most), and many having a very limited epic selection.

We usually always focus on improvements to every other class, and this change is not necessary for the other classes, as it will quite literally cripple WD further than they already are. Why not focus on improving some things that should have been fixed from the very beginning in the WD class?

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
I completely understand Ratbeards point, witch hunter is designed to make pve life easier which if we like it or not is the first main consideration for the game as a whole but, that doesn't mean we can't create a compromise in which it can consistent toy stay beneficial but not as game breaking as it is right now. And here is the fact, at witch hunter staying with the change presented right now will make wwitch doctor VS any class:

once I am in range to trigger WH I auto win

this isn't just because you can chain off it then half the incoming hit but since it's a fort for a turn and your pirate goes first even your other companions will deal little to no damage (if wh is red in all incoming g damage, I haven't been on test yet just basing this off what I heard)

So here is an idea I have:


  • Make Witch Hunter pve only - if it's designed for pve specifically and working how you want it there it would be a gods blessing to witch doctors to have it completely gone

  • make it so it only reduces 25% of the next incoming hit like a mini singular shield
  • Disable the ability to chain off of the epic

Ensign
Jul 12, 2016
41
Sunny Wolf on Sep 30, 2016 wrote:
That is not necessarily true after testing it out with a couple of friend we've gone over the scenarios and interactions with primarily Soul shroud.

As most witches will be using soul shroud since it gives both damage and sustain we've discovered when soul shroud triggers witch hunter will only half that damage.

witchdoctor uses mojo reaver -> Enemy pirates witch hunter triggers -> witch hunter lands -> other epics trigger (relentless, burst fire, etc.) -> witctdoctor drops into Soul shroud range -> soul shroud triggers -> soul shroud does 50% damage -> Mojo reaver does Full damage.

Note testing it with witchunter 2 has the same scenario if 2-3 witch hunters trigger in the same chain only the first spell going through will take the -50% damage reduction.

From my experience this impacts the sustainability of privateers more than witchdoctors as one of privies main strategies come late game is to fort and let Soul shroud do damage and bring you back in the game. This change does 2 things I think. Privateers that use a staffy variant will lose damage and a lot of their sustain also makes melee privateers a lot better because now you can use assassin's strike without worry of the -50% weapon reduction.
I haven't personally tested the new witch hunter too many times because my computer keeps crashing , but one of the main reasons I have not yet observed the interaction of soul shroud with the new witch hunter is because I dropped soul shroud long ago. This is because there are far better accessories for that spot, such as a revive, due to the fact that witch hunt is so common, and also instigates a chain.

Even though soul shroud could actually be seen as a counter to the reduce now, it forces me to bring a seperate item to deal with just one epic, and still forces a lot of situationals (like me being under half health and having soul shroud equipped in the first place).

If the reduce goes away after I use my soul shroud and before I reaver, I think this brings some turn mechanics into question, as it's supposed to last the full round. Otherwise I guess it could work, though I as a witch I would never want to be forced to bring an inferior item to deal with a single epic that is in most senses broken.

But I kinda see your point

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
I've put my twenty cents on this in the epic talents suggestions thread made by Ratbeard, in the last post I made (if it went through, that is). To be frank though, WD are not underappreciated. What with summons galore, long range curses, helpful debuffs and buffs, along with charm (could be used in PvP really, I'm not of the opinion that it's OP, since I use BoD) and the works, WD should have it made. Except for Witch Hunter. Hence the suggestion I made, so long as you can put up with a few seconds added to fight time, if not, I'm sure we can figure something out. Hopefully before Darkmoor, because I am not looking forward to Valencia part 2 ramped up to eleven, plus a nerfed Witch Hunter at the time we most need any help it could provide. Please, not that. (So that's twenty more cents on this talent.)

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
I put this in it's own post, because it has it's own importance.

Thank you, Ratbeard, for all of your dedication and hard work!

Also, for reading this pirate’s forty cents worth of opinions on future and further changes in the game I’ve come to enjoy so much. (Whether you read this or not I hope my thanks reaches you some how.)

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
CuriousWitch on Sep 30, 2016 wrote:
Why not either:

1. Make it so that witch hunter, a spooky-based attack, doesn't trigger melee epics or even Musketeer epics.

2. Make it so that witch hunter can't be triggered, as quentin suggested, by any weapon but a staffy based weapon or staffy combo weapon.

Speaking of Pvp, why not also unban the WD power charm? I understood banning charming gaze, but you said it yourself Ratbeard, There's a difference between banning the power from a special piece of gear and a school's power. If Hide gets that excuse, overpowered as it is, why doesn't Charm? I don't see any other school power banned from Pvp at the moment besides Witchdoctors, whose WD companions struggle with having less than half the accuracy of every other companion, Bad range (3 for most), and many having a very limited epic selection.

We usually always focus on improvements to every other class, and this change is not necessary for the other classes, as it will quite literally cripple WD further than they already are. Why not focus on improving some things that should have been fixed from the very beginning in the WD class?
The reason why charm is banned has been stated numerous times (dig through the spar chamber threads) so there is a direct answer to that.

On the other hand though, while I agree with a change to witch hunter, I think that the pros of the WD class are almost being discredited. Ocuboros, while not toooo effective vs buccaneers, absolutely cripples key powers of the other 4 classes (including witch). Jobu's Embrace, how many other schools do damage and get health simultaneously? Mojo Storm, mournsong, mojo reaver/blade, hastes and slows, aoe debuffs etc etc, what other class can be so creative with their powers?

Long story short, yes witch hunter can be improved but in all honesty each class has it's pros and cons, this just happens to be one of the bigger cons.

Ensign
Nov 19, 2014
8
TalonThundercloud on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Sorry, but I see no reason why other classes need special protection from magic based attacks (especially when there is no melee counter part to this epic, but that's besides the point). Witch hunt previously already allowed an opponent to chain off of our one attack, which was a serious problem strategically wise. Now, ALL of my attacks that get a witch hunt reduce will be halved, which now basically perma-forts an entire classification of attacks by a class which was never complained about or overpowered in any way (except POSSIBLY mojo buffs, but even then, that is not a witch specific problem...).

The way this power is at the moment, it will mean the destruction of the witchdoctor class, and i'm not exaggerating. Our signature power, mojo reaver, will do nothing now vs anyone with witch hunter, as the reduce will nullify it every time. 2 possible proposals are to either revert witch hunter to how it was before, which would be perfectly fine, or to change witch hunt so that you only receive protection from weapon power damage. This would be fine as well. Otherwise, witch is unfortunately toast.

I know this sounds ranty lol, but as a pretty good witch, this update is very concerning to me.

Charming Talon Sharp, level 70
true but don't like range of weapon for shooty or staffy not that good pair to phule wands more good of good more range then others staffy or shooty weapon (250 damage on witchdoctor) best damage I see on a witchdoctor but witchdoctor don't even use a staffy (like using mix weapon so, more talent) so, attack more then standing along by do nothing (witch doctor when came to pirate101 he only witchdoctor able get pass cool ranch without staffy!

Captain
Jun 26, 2010
731
Ratbeard on Sep 29, 2016 wrote:
Why?

Because not everything is designed around you fine folks in the PvP community.

Simple answer, but true.

Remember the satyrs?

Of course, knowing me and my soft heart... I'll break down and nerf Witch Hunter for you...

...right before you visit Darkmoor...
Darkmoor, we going to Darkmoor soon!?!

- Deadeye Jack Morgan

- Deadeye Edward Morgan

Petty Officer
Mar 31, 2016
57
Wolf SkullRider on Oct 1, 2016 wrote:
The reason why charm is banned has been stated numerous times (dig through the spar chamber threads) so there is a direct answer to that.

On the other hand though, while I agree with a change to witch hunter, I think that the pros of the WD class are almost being discredited. Ocuboros, while not toooo effective vs buccaneers, absolutely cripples key powers of the other 4 classes (including witch). Jobu's Embrace, how many other schools do damage and get health simultaneously? Mojo Storm, mournsong, mojo reaver/blade, hastes and slows, aoe debuffs etc etc, what other class can be so creative with their powers?

Long story short, yes witch hunter can be improved but in all honesty each class has it's pros and cons, this just happens to be one of the bigger cons.
As far as charm being banned, I don't pvp, so if the majority of the community feels that this is an appropriate decision, I can understand that. I only made the comment because if Blast of Discord is allowed in pvp, which essentially charms everyone for a turn in the sense that everyone attacks each other, why would it not be allowed for one companion?

Witchdoctors as pirates don't need much buffing or improvement, I agee (although I do still think they could use more counters to other schools). I'm mainly referring to their main school companions: Carcarius Grimtooth, Mormo, etc. Most are small nitpicks, such as range, but others I don't understand, such as their accuracy. Overall, it's the WD COMPANIONS that need some fixing.

But the problem for me with Ocuboros for example, is that it's range is limited to a long, linear line. Which is nice in theory, but if the target is not in that line, I cannot use it. I do see your point though, it's probably more effective in PVP than PVE.

As for spells like Jobu's Embrace, it's the reason I became a witch! I loved the death school in Wizard101, so drains were right up my alley.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
TechnomagePvP on Oct 1, 2016 wrote:
I completely understand Ratbeards point, witch hunter is designed to make pve life easier which if we like it or not is the first main consideration for the game as a whole but, that doesn't mean we can't create a compromise in which it can consistent toy stay beneficial but not as game breaking as it is right now. And here is the fact, at witch hunter staying with the change presented right now will make wwitch doctor VS any class:

once I am in range to trigger WH I auto win

this isn't just because you can chain off it then half the incoming hit but since it's a fort for a turn and your pirate goes first even your other companions will deal little to no damage (if wh is red in all incoming g damage, I haven't been on test yet just basing this off what I heard)

So here is an idea I have:


  • Make Witch Hunter pve only - if it's designed for pve specifically and working how you want it there it would be a gods blessing to witch doctors to have it completely gone

  • make it so it only reduces 25% of the next incoming hit like a mini singular shield
  • Disable the ability to chain off of the epic
Great suggestions

1