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Witch Hunter Change must be addressed

2
AuthorMessage
Ensign
Jul 12, 2016
41
TechnomagePvP on Oct 1, 2016 wrote:
I completely understand Ratbeards point, witch hunter is designed to make pve life easier which if we like it or not is the first main consideration for the game as a whole but, that doesn't mean we can't create a compromise in which it can consistent toy stay beneficial but not as game breaking as it is right now. And here is the fact, at witch hunter staying with the change presented right now will make wwitch doctor VS any class:

once I am in range to trigger WH I auto win

this isn't just because you can chain off it then half the incoming hit but since it's a fort for a turn and your pirate goes first even your other companions will deal little to no damage (if wh is red in all incoming g damage, I haven't been on test yet just basing this off what I heard)

So here is an idea I have:


  • Make Witch Hunter pve only - if it's designed for pve specifically and working how you want it there it would be a gods blessing to witch doctors to have it completely gone

  • make it so it only reduces 25% of the next incoming hit like a mini singular shield
  • Disable the ability to chain off of the epic
Ah pve... that sounds great! Really, it does seem like witch hunter is mainly designed to ease pve, so why not simply restrict it to pve? Given that another power of ours is banned from pvp (even if its not for the same reason as what i'm suggesting), this sounds very fair and practical.

Developer
TechnomagePvP on Oct 1, 2016 wrote:
I completely understand Ratbeards point, witch hunter is designed to make pve life easier which if we like it or not is the first main consideration for the game as a whole but, that doesn't mean we can't create a compromise in which it can consistent toy stay beneficial but not as game breaking as it is right now. And here is the fact, at witch hunter staying with the change presented right now will make wwitch doctor VS any class:

once I am in range to trigger WH I auto win

this isn't just because you can chain off it then half the incoming hit but since it's a fort for a turn and your pirate goes first even your other companions will deal little to no damage (if wh is red in all incoming g damage, I haven't been on test yet just basing this off what I heard)

So here is an idea I have:


  • Make Witch Hunter pve only - if it's designed for pve specifically and working how you want it there it would be a gods blessing to witch doctors to have it completely gone

  • make it so it only reduces 25% of the next incoming hit like a mini singular shield
  • Disable the ability to chain off of the epic
Witch Hunter should improve your resistance to incoming MAGIC attacks only.

Please let me know if that's not working.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Oct 3, 2016 wrote:
Witch Hunter should improve your resistance to incoming MAGIC attacks only.

Please let me know if that's not working.
In my current tests yes O: is it supposed to block the first magic attack in that turn or all of them however? since my experience it only blocks the first one that goes thru weather soul shroud or reaver

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
TechnomagePvP on Oct 1, 2016 wrote:
I completely understand Ratbeards point, witch hunter is designed to make pve life easier which if we like it or not is the first main consideration for the game as a whole but, that doesn't mean we can't create a compromise in which it can consistent toy stay beneficial but not as game breaking as it is right now. And here is the fact, at witch hunter staying with the change presented right now will make wwitch doctor VS any class:

once I am in range to trigger WH I auto win

this isn't just because you can chain off it then half the incoming hit but since it's a fort for a turn and your pirate goes first even your other companions will deal little to no damage (if wh is red in all incoming g damage, I haven't been on test yet just basing this off what I heard)

So here is an idea I have:


  • Make Witch Hunter pve only - if it's designed for pve specifically and working how you want it there it would be a gods blessing to witch doctors to have it completely gone

  • make it so it only reduces 25% of the next incoming hit like a mini singular shield
  • Disable the ability to chain off of the epic
Example of why typing on a phone + the moderation DO NOT MIX WELL

Developer
Sunny Wolf on Oct 3, 2016 wrote:
In my current tests yes O: is it supposed to block the first magic attack in that turn or all of them however? since my experience it only blocks the first one that goes thru weather soul shroud or reaver
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
This may be off topic, ever considered buffing up Mournsong's damage? Because Witch as a class it seems like it's going off course from being the ranged glass cannon to a more necromancy style with summons as of recently. They really don't have much damage without being paired with Scratch and even a +100% Mournsong is pretty lack luster in itself. So maybe alongside that proposed change to WH (which has been an issue even before this change was implemented) could help the underwhelming Witchdoctor class?

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
You hit the nail right on the head here.

I think I finally see the intent you had when making this change and I feel your motives were misconstrued at first. After hearing this out and taking into consideration the factors, I think this tweak to witch hunter is quite optimal (I almost feel bad for starting this thread). The main issue I had with the change to witch hunter was the mechanics I visually read, versus the actual thought process behind it.

I am glad to have finally made sense of that, and I want to apologize to you Ratbeard. I now see firsthand the frustrations your line of work can cause and I just wanted to extend my appreciation for what you do.

Anywho, great explanation, I'll be certain not to question your motives so quickly in the future.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
If Soul Shroud triggers it will block the soul shroud the way it currently works from my testing. By increasing the strength of witchdoctors do you mean epic wise or power wise? Would that mean buffing witchdoctor summons? for example the skeleton hoplites would be really good if they had Hold the Line instead of vengeance?

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
I think... Witch hunter isnt essential in pve, I mean, there arent that many enemy witches to begin with.

Developer
Sunny Wolf on Oct 5, 2016 wrote:
If Soul Shroud triggers it will block the soul shroud the way it currently works from my testing. By increasing the strength of witchdoctors do you mean epic wise or power wise? Would that mean buffing witchdoctor summons? for example the skeleton hoplites would be really good if they had Hold the Line instead of vengeance?
That's easy enough-- though I am sure you realize you do have access to other Hold-the-Line'rs (doesn't the angry orchard do that?)

I'm not sure I want to get in the habit of having every WD summon have hold the line, though I obviously agree that's probably the key talent you look for in a summons. To some degree, it's not about hold the line, but simply about making a giant wall of bodies.

And to be honest, I'd kind of rather give you some really fun/interesting walls (a wall of fire that stops enemies in their tracks?) than bucketloads of mobs all with the same talent.

Part of the fun of witchdoctors is their giant list of unpredictable powers.

In my opinion, of course.

Developer
Wolf SkullRider on Oct 5, 2016 wrote:
You hit the nail right on the head here.

I think I finally see the intent you had when making this change and I feel your motives were misconstrued at first. After hearing this out and taking into consideration the factors, I think this tweak to witch hunter is quite optimal (I almost feel bad for starting this thread). The main issue I had with the change to witch hunter was the mechanics I visually read, versus the actual thought process behind it.

I am glad to have finally made sense of that, and I want to apologize to you Ratbeard. I now see firsthand the frustrations your line of work can cause and I just wanted to extend my appreciation for what you do.

Anywho, great explanation, I'll be certain not to question your motives so quickly in the future.
No problem at all. I enjoy the back-and-forth process. It is the highlight of my job.

And to be fair, we don't give you guys all the information you need to give me useful feedback. We can't. It's not really feasible to print the entire game logic on the card, and asking questions is the only way we can fix things-- together.

Ensign
Jul 12, 2016
41
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
I see what you mean now, and do agree when you say witchdoctors should lose close up with bucks, and vice versa the other way around. However, this change to witch hunter does still drastically nerf mojo reaver, our most powerful attack.

It now also makes summon spamming and Scratch nearly essential to keep the enemy character back, and balance out the damage lost once they enter witch hunt range, even though the use of Scatch and summons like trees and moo robe are usually limited to ranked only, and are the only summons that actually keep the opponent back.

When the enemy buck does move into witch hunt range, which only takes 2 turns in ranked, I can now only use aoes unless I want to suffer permanent half damage reduction on the pirate.

I'll understand your decision if you decide to keep this, but I beg you to reconsider, please.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Oct 4, 2016 wrote:
When WH triggers, you'll get defense against the next attack. The logic stack can get pretty complicated, but that should mean the attack that triggered WH in the first place.

Another possible change we've discussed-- which will not be in this update-- would be to prevent WH from triggering your own chains. Meaning, I would change it so that your WH will not trigger outgoing follow-ups such as Bladestorm, Relentless, Second Chance, etc.

This change would nerf the talent with respect to PvE, which is why it warrants more careful consideration than 2 days worth of outcry (some of which, I highly suspect, is not experiential, and made without due consideration of the other big talent changes in this update).

Witchdoctors should lose when they are forced to go toe-to-toe, just as Buccaneers should lose an exchange at range (and Buc's should especially lose a WILL-based contest at range). To the extent that I'd like to make some big changes for Witchdoctors, it is not so much to shore up your intended weaknesses as it is to beef up your intended strengths: to keep opponents at bay, and to degrade their health and combat ability so that your companions (and summons!) can defeat them.
Ratbeard, another point to consider is the effect that witch hunter has in the musket vs witch match up. Both use ranged attacks, but with witch hunter, a witch cannot target the musket directly (only with aoe) if he/she wants to avoid witch hunter. Currently, if it is triggered, the musket will likely unleash a chain of attacks (burst fire, doubletap, etc). And on top of that, spell damage will be cut in half, so this does not seem fair given that they are both ranged classes

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Oct 6, 2016 wrote:
Ratbeard, another point to consider is the effect that witch hunter has in the musket vs witch match up. Both use ranged attacks, but with witch hunter, a witch cannot target the musket directly (only with aoe) if he/she wants to avoid witch hunter. Currently, if it is triggered, the musket will likely unleash a chain of attacks (burst fire, doubletap, etc). And on top of that, spell damage will be cut in half, so this does not seem fair given that they are both ranged classes
Why isn't it fair for musketeers (or anyone) to enjoy the benefits of a talent? Taking witch hunter costs them a talent one way or another, and puts them at a disadvantage against any other class.

Target him with AoE's, target him from outside the range of his guns, or send your minions after him while you target his minions.

You keep asking for your witchdoctor to be able to win a symmetric duel against another pirate.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Oct 6, 2016 wrote:
Why isn't it fair for musketeers (or anyone) to enjoy the benefits of a talent? Taking witch hunter costs them a talent one way or another, and puts them at a disadvantage against any other class.

Target him with AoE's, target him from outside the range of his guns, or send your minions after him while you target his minions.

You keep asking for your witchdoctor to be able to win a symmetric duel against another pirate.
A few points in response to this:

1) Why isn't it fair for musketeers (or anyone) to enjoy the benefits of a talent?

It is fair, but the talent itself just seems unfair based on the numerous points mentioned by myself and others on these message boards. You had mentioned that it makes sense for a witch to be at a disadvantage when facing a melee opponent 1v1 at close range, but I was trying to illustrate that even in range battle, a musketeer with a long range weapon (like a pvp champ weapon) can easily come within range of a witchdoctor so that witch hunter can activate.

In rank PVP, the board is small, so there are not many times when I can be out of range of a musketeer's AOE or witch hunter and still be able to hit with my own AOE.

2)

You keep asking for your witchdoctor to be able to win a symmetric duel against another pirate.

I am able to do well in PVP by hiding behind trees and other minions for as long as possible, but I just feel that the current PVP meta limits options for witch doctors. Without those minions (trees, scoprions, etc) I dont think they can have much of a chance, especially with the change to witch hunter.

2