witch hunter

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AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, I have said this numerous times, and I will say it again. Witch hunter should either be removed from PVP or it should require a staffy weapon. As it is, it is just not fair. I lost another match today in which I was facing a swashbuckler, his health was very low, but he hit me multiple times with witch hunter when I tried to hit him with spells. If I could have hit him with wand attacks before he hit me with assassins strike, I would have won. In the end, I got him to 128 health, and died with bleeding from his assassins.

I just don't see how this is fair. Why is it that a melee pirate can attack me when I try to use a spell. Its a win-win for the melee pirate, come close and attack me, and then get extra attacks when I try to attack him back. I can understand companions having this epic, but for pirates, if you dont want to remove it, a fair trade-off would be to require a staffy weapon or staffy combo weapon, just like quickdraw requires a musket weapon. Imagine if a melee pirate could train quick draw and then use it without having a musket weapon equipped. This is basically what is happening now with witch hunter.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
stormy quentin ver... on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, I have said this numerous times, and I will say it again. Witch hunter should either be removed from PVP or it should require a staffy weapon. As it is, it is just not fair. I lost another match today in which I was facing a swashbuckler, his health was very low, but he hit me multiple times with witch hunter when I tried to hit him with spells. If I could have hit him with wand attacks before he hit me with assassins strike, I would have won. In the end, I got him to 128 health, and died with bleeding from his assassins.

I just don't see how this is fair. Why is it that a melee pirate can attack me when I try to use a spell. Its a win-win for the melee pirate, come close and attack me, and then get extra attacks when I try to attack him back. I can understand companions having this epic, but for pirates, if you dont want to remove it, a fair trade-off would be to require a staffy weapon or staffy combo weapon, just like quickdraw requires a musket weapon. Imagine if a melee pirate could train quick draw and then use it without having a musket weapon equipped. This is basically what is happening now with witch hunter.
Yeah I agree bro. This one is really rough for witches. I know that everyone loves it to counter the OP soul shroud...but it has had an EXTRA negative benefit for the poor witches who have no choice but to use magic to attack with. In fact witch hunter will activate even before you can get your mojo blade off!

Whats more is the old scratch upgrade that was supposed to give witches a competitive edge...is diminished because it ALSO gave bucklers a HUGE boost on their poison and bleeding! The really need to make the MOJO shark with this power and not the cannon pirate like old scratch. ((You know like how emmet is the one who got the movement speed thing. Sure you can buy him from the crown shop...lol but at least that way KI would have made more money while causing everyone to suffer))

The only think I can think of to fix the issue. Would be to band deaths bargain (should shroud) from pvp...then consequently ban witch hunter. Cause you can't do one without the other. As for making it staff specific?...hmm idk if they can make it work like that. But its another though/option for KI to consider :)

Developer
Witch Hunter is unlike other talents, in that it works regardless of what weapon you have equipped. It is not analogous to Quick Draw, First Strike, or Intuition.

Tell me more about this opponent. What was his rank?

He invested a talent point just to defend against witchdoctors, and it was still a close fight?

He's probably feeling pretty good about that investment.

I would not want Witch Hunter to provide an outsized advantage to an inferior player, but neither should the investment of a talent point be trivialized.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
He was a good player, a champion last season. But I understand what you are saying. So how come I cant invest a practice point in a similar talent that can attack him before he attacks me with a melee weapon?

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
826
Ratbeard on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
Witch Hunter is unlike other talents, in that it works regardless of what weapon you have equipped. It is not analogous to Quick Draw, First Strike, or Intuition.

Tell me more about this opponent. What was his rank?

He invested a talent point just to defend against witchdoctors, and it was still a close fight?

He's probably feeling pretty good about that investment.

I would not want Witch Hunter to provide an outsized advantage to an inferior player, but neither should the investment of a talent point be trivialized.
why is there only something that stops spells regardless of their target? why is there not something to stop guns or a melee weapon? quick draw and first strike only activate when you target that foe and they dont reduce your damage, why is the class that is struggling the most have the greatest counter

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
zuto4011a on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
why is there only something that stops spells regardless of their target? why is there not something to stop guns or a melee weapon? quick draw and first strike only activate when you target that foe and they dont reduce your damage, why is the class that is struggling the most have the greatest counter
I second that.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, it happened again just now. I was facing a privateer. He had both witch hunter and soul shroud trained. He attacked me with an assassin strike, I was left with around 800 health. He had 1200. I tried to do a mojo reaver, but he killed me by getting a witch hunter hit and a relentless off of that.

Tell me, how is this even remotely fair?

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Okay, I am not sure you realize this, but witch hunter is a witchdoctor spell, so if your witchdoctor has intuition on, then you will get the first attack before witch hunter is activated, you can also then get your mojo echo or if you critical, get mojo rising to go off. So, if you are using a witchdoctor and use mormo, you can give yourself intuition or you can give it to yourself, so I am not seeing your dilemma.

Being prepared and ready for battle is what pvp is all about, sounds to me like your opponent is more prepared than you are.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Happened again. This time he did 900 and then 800 damage with witchhunter through relentless chains. All without even needing to use a card or even attack. This is so frustrating.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Ratbeard on Oct 1, 2015 wrote:
Witch Hunter is unlike other talents, in that it works regardless of what weapon you have equipped. It is not analogous to Quick Draw, First Strike, or Intuition.

Tell me more about this opponent. What was his rank?

He invested a talent point just to defend against witchdoctors, and it was still a close fight?

He's probably feeling pretty good about that investment.

I would not want Witch Hunter to provide an outsized advantage to an inferior player, but neither should the investment of a talent point be trivialized.
Honestly witch hunter on a buccaneer or other melee class (mainly bucc though) has way too much of a crippling hit. First they hit you with the initial witch hunter, which reduces your damage by around half. Then, they're likely to either follow through or relentless. Either of these may crit, leading to a bladestorm. And if those go critical, then the chain becomes even longer. Not to mention that bladestorm going critical can lead to another bladestorm, then a relentless after that.
On top of the possibility of being killed during your own turn, witch hunter ruins whatever offensive damaging spell you were about to cast.
And you guys wonder why witches are constantly complaining and nobody uses witch companions in PvP. This adds to the reason.
I understand that if witch hunter was nerfed, then it may become a useless investment, but right now it's doing the opposite and providing the outsized advantage to an inferior player.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
This might be a little off topic but its something to consider. Basically witches need a buff that DOESNT help all the other schools ((like old scratch did)) The biggest buff I think witches need is a mojo version of turn the tide! :D So instead of increasing damage after health is half gone it increases mojo! You could call it Witches Fury or Undead Rising. Or something like that :D It would be huge for them but without giving an overly unfair advantage.

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 3, 2015 wrote:
This might be a little off topic but its something to consider. Basically witches need a buff that DOESNT help all the other schools ((like old scratch did)) The biggest buff I think witches need is a mojo version of turn the tide! :D So instead of increasing damage after health is half gone it increases mojo! You could call it Witches Fury or Undead Rising. Or something like that :D It would be huge for them but without giving an overly unfair advantage.
Witches dont have the toughness of a bucaneer to fight at 50% or lower health, I think they'd rather heal/drain as fast as they can...

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Darth JT on Oct 2, 2015 wrote:
Okay, I am not sure you realize this, but witch hunter is a witchdoctor spell, so if your witchdoctor has intuition on, then you will get the first attack before witch hunter is activated, you can also then get your mojo echo or if you critical, get mojo rising to go off. So, if you are using a witchdoctor and use mormo, you can give yourself intuition or you can give it to yourself, so I am not seeing your dilemma.

Being prepared and ready for battle is what pvp is all about, sounds to me like your opponent is more prepared than you are.
The problem is that the game does not seem to be treating witch hunter as a spell attack, but rather a regular weapon attack. When I face witchdoctors in PVP, my Witch Hunter will trigger before their's, but I think this is because they have a staffy weapon.

When I faced a Buckler in PVP, my Witch Hunter did not activate at all prior to his Witch Hunter. I also tried this in against a companion, Gracie Conrad just now. I targeted her with a spell when she was right next to me, and her witch hunter activated and she was able to hit me.

Therefore, I think that the problem is that the game is treating witch hunter as a weapon attack, not a spell. This is why relentless and bladestorm are getting activated after this, making it even worse for witch doctors.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
I also did a test with my witch doctor, with Witch Hunter trained vs gracie conrad, when I used haste to give me intuition. When I targeted her with a spell, her Witch Hunter activated without my intuition OR Witch Hunter activating. So clearly, Witch Hunter is not acting like a spell, but rather like a regular weapon attack.

If this was changed to being a spell, then it would not be so bad for Witch Doctors. We could counter it with Intuition or with our own Witch Hunter, and also, it would not lead to chains of hits with relentless, blade storm, etc.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ok, one more test.

I gave my WD Intuition with haste, so I had both Witch Hunter and Intuition. I then stood next to Old Scratch, who had With Hunter also. This time, when I attacked him with a mournsong, MY Witch Hunter did activate first. It said it reduced his damage, but he still did 775 damage with a spell boost. Recall from my post above that this did NOT happen when I stood next to Gracie Conrad, in which case my Witch Hunter did not active.

So this shows me a couple of things:

1) Witch Hunter is being treated like a weapon attack by the game, because my own Witch Hunter only activates against Old Scratch's Witch Hunter, because he has a staffy weapon so it counts as a magic attack

2) The Witch Hunter damage is based on spell power, because WDs with phule wand know that its does over 300 damage, and in the example above, Scratch did 775 damage due to his spell power boost, otherwise the damage should have been reduced by my Witch Hunter.

This is a bad combination for Witch Doctors in PVP. When melee pirates or companions use Witch Hunter on us, we cant reduce the damage and cannot counter it with our own Witch Hunter or Intuition. And on top of that, because it acts like a normal weapon attack, it triggers epics and chains of hits.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 3, 2015 wrote:
This might be a little off topic but its something to consider. Basically witches need a buff that DOESNT help all the other schools ((like old scratch did)) The biggest buff I think witches need is a mojo version of turn the tide! :D So instead of increasing damage after health is half gone it increases mojo! You could call it Witches Fury or Undead Rising. Or something like that :D It would be huge for them but without giving an overly unfair advantage.
Undead rising sounds like a great name XD
They do need a direct buff, not to old scratch or any of their companions (not yet at least), but to the witch class itself, as it's not quite cutting it in PvP.
Making witch hunter staffy weapon only would be a decent start, at least.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
stormy quentin ver... on Oct 4, 2015 wrote:
The problem is that the game does not seem to be treating witch hunter as a spell attack, but rather a regular weapon attack. When I face witchdoctors in PVP, my Witch Hunter will trigger before their's, but I think this is because they have a staffy weapon.

When I faced a Buckler in PVP, my Witch Hunter did not activate at all prior to his Witch Hunter. I also tried this in against a companion, Gracie Conrad just now. I targeted her with a spell when she was right next to me, and her witch hunter activated and she was able to hit me.

Therefore, I think that the problem is that the game is treating witch hunter as a weapon attack, not a spell. This is why relentless and bladestorm are getting activated after this, making it even worse for witch doctors.
If Damage is not reduced and intuition is not being activated, this sounds like a bug that needs to be squashed.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Witch hunter will activate off of any Witch power (assuming the opponent is in range).

It will also activate off the Witch's regular wand/staff attack.

So once the enemy is next to you, a Witch vs a Buck or a Swashbuckler for example, how is a Witch supposed to win? Whether you hit them with mojo storm, mournsong or a regular wand attack, their Witch Hunter will trigger and possibly their epics following that.

I agree with quentin 100% here. It is silly that the Witchdoctor class is the only one that has to deal with such a big disadvantage.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Alex Hawkins on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
Witch hunter will activate off of any Witch power (assuming the opponent is in range).

It will also activate off the Witch's regular wand/staff attack.

So once the enemy is next to you, a Witch vs a Buck or a Swashbuckler for example, how is a Witch supposed to win? Whether you hit them with mojo storm, mournsong or a regular wand attack, their Witch Hunter will trigger and possibly their epics following that.

I agree with quentin 100% here. It is silly that the Witchdoctor class is the only one that has to deal with such a big disadvantage.
What is the real complaint here, that is what I want to know? With Scratches new powers do you realize how much damage can be done without any checks or balances? Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

I think the real problem people have is that chains can and are given to other classes off of their epic cards, yet for the witchdoctor, you can get a mojo echo or mojo rising off of a mournsong or single attack card.

Musketeers get sniper shot and critical strike cards that can and do activate burst fire, melees get critical hit cards and even assassins strike can activate a relentless or bladestorm if it goes critical, is this not the true complaint of this thread? Because there should be counters to attacks, no class should go unchecked.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
What is the real complaint here, that is what I want to know? With Scratches new powers do you realize how much damage can be done without any checks or balances? Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

I think the real problem people have is that chains can and are given to other classes off of their epic cards, yet for the witchdoctor, you can get a mojo echo or mojo rising off of a mournsong or single attack card.

Musketeers get sniper shot and critical strike cards that can and do activate burst fire, melees get critical hit cards and even assassins strike can activate a relentless or bladestorm if it goes critical, is this not the true complaint of this thread? Because there should be counters to attacks, no class should go unchecked.
Because there should be counters to attacks, no class should go unchecked

The complain is why is Witchdoctors the only class that has to deal with Witch Hunter whether they attack with staff or attack using a power. Even without Witch hunter, the class doesn't go unchecked, you still have other defenses such as Fortress to defend against Witch attacks. The same defenses you have against a Hidden-Assassin combo or a Musket sniper shot.

Should we had Melee Hunter and Ranged hunter then? So that none of the classes go unchecked as you state?

With Scratches new powers do you realize how much damage can be done without any checks or balances? Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

Even with Scratches new buff, a hidden assassin or a hidden critical card (Musket or Buck) can do much more damage than the Mournsong with 100% spell power buff. Do you know what the common defense against all these powers is? Valor Fortress. Why should Witches be the only ones to deal with an extra layer of "checks and balances" on top of the fortress? It puts them in an unnecessarily bad spot. You're delusional to think anyone would stay next to you as a Witch while you have a 100% spell power buff on.

I think the real problem people have is that chains can and are given to other classes off of their epic cards, yet for the witchdoctor, you can get a mojo echo or mojo rising off of a mournsong or single attack card.

The complain is that chains are being given off, not of their epic cards, but of a Witch Hunter epic. How does it make sense that an attack that does not require a gun or a melee weapon triggers those epics? Witch Hunter would be completely fine as it is IF it didn't trigger burst fire or relentless off of it. Why should that magic based attack not based on a gun or melee weapon trigger such epics to begin with?

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
What is the real complaint here, that is what I want to know? With Scratches new powers do you realize how much damage can be done without any checks or balances? Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

I think the real problem people have is that chains can and are given to other classes off of their epic cards, yet for the witchdoctor, you can get a mojo echo or mojo rising off of a mournsong or single attack card.

Musketeers get sniper shot and critical strike cards that can and do activate burst fire, melees get critical hit cards and even assassins strike can activate a relentless or bladestorm if it goes critical, is this not the true complaint of this thread? Because there should be counters to attacks, no class should go unchecked.
Actually Darth, Witch Hunter reduces weapon damage, not spell damage, so it does nothing to combat the spell buff. The complaint here is that the witch class is the only one that is in this great disadvantage. When a buckler or buccaneer is next to us, we cant attack with out wand or with a spell card without risking getting hit by a chain of melee attacks. In the current set up of PVP, this is a huge disadvantage, as all other classes only have to worry about getting hit with a pre-emptive strike from the same type of weapon (first strike for melee, quick draw for musket). Alex summed this up well in his post. At this point, I am hoping for some more feedback from Ratbeard on this issue.

Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
What is the real complaint here, that is what I want to know? With Scratches new powers do you realize how much damage can be done without any checks or balances? Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

I think the real problem people have is that chains can and are given to other classes off of their epic cards, yet for the witchdoctor, you can get a mojo echo or mojo rising off of a mournsong or single attack card.

Musketeers get sniper shot and critical strike cards that can and do activate burst fire, melees get critical hit cards and even assassins strike can activate a relentless or bladestorm if it goes critical, is this not the true complaint of this thread? Because there should be counters to attacks, no class should go unchecked.
Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

It reduces the weapon power, meaning that our basic hit will be in half of the original value, not our spells.

But that is beside the point. Melee user with witch hinter against witchdoctors are too overpowered, imposiblle to defeat actually. If I try and run, melee will catch up due to our low movement + buccs and swashes can both use charge to reach us.

If I attack, I will get hit and then most likely chain hits, as that was the outcome when I got into this situation. We literally can't to anything. Maybe heal or protect till you get bored? Even Purge Magic activates witch hunter for some reason.

The point is, that melee with witch hunter has super counter against already troubled class.

Imagine if your every hit triggered my mojo storm, would that be ok with you? Would you consider that fair? Please, tell me how would you deal in that situation, when every time you target me you get blasted with mojo storm, with chance to critical and with chance to activate mojo echo, mojo rising, etc...

Witch hunter needs to be fixed and changed. The way it works right now, it feels like someone is kicking you while your are on the ground, with no chance to stand up.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Duncan StormThief on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
Witch hunter enables other classes to reduce that massive damage that can bypass all armor based on will power and spell power.

It reduces the weapon power, meaning that our basic hit will be in half of the original value, not our spells.

But that is beside the point. Melee user with witch hinter against witchdoctors are too overpowered, imposiblle to defeat actually. If I try and run, melee will catch up due to our low movement + buccs and swashes can both use charge to reach us.

If I attack, I will get hit and then most likely chain hits, as that was the outcome when I got into this situation. We literally can't to anything. Maybe heal or protect till you get bored? Even Purge Magic activates witch hunter for some reason.

The point is, that melee with witch hunter has super counter against already troubled class.

Imagine if your every hit triggered my mojo storm, would that be ok with you? Would you consider that fair? Please, tell me how would you deal in that situation, when every time you target me you get blasted with mojo storm, with chance to critical and with chance to activate mojo echo, mojo rising, etc...

Witch hunter needs to be fixed and changed. The way it works right now, it feels like someone is kicking you while your are on the ground, with no chance to stand up.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman
Again, because there is a fist icon, you are assuming it only reduces weapon power, this is not accurate. I have seen and tested this, it reduces spell attacks by half. Hence the talent being called Witch Hunter, not Melee Hunter or Weapon Hunter.

Already troubled class? Other people are saying now because of Old Scratches Boost, Witch Doctors are ranked 2 in PVP, so which is it? Impossible to defeat any melee class with witch hunter trained? Impossible? really, so no witchdoctor is winning at all, or is this an extreme exaggeration?

WitchDoctor's also get teleport so you don't always have to run everywhere. Mojo Storm, a spell that hits 9 squares and can naturally do over 600 damage to all 9 squares, more when boosted. again, you are over exaggerating which is not helping your cause.

You do realize that it takes 5 practice points to train witch hunter, sounds to me, like that is 5 practice points well used if you can "Always" defeat any witchdoctor of any skill.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
Again, because there is a fist icon, you are assuming it only reduces weapon power, this is not accurate. I have seen and tested this, it reduces spell attacks by half. Hence the talent being called Witch Hunter, not Melee Hunter or Weapon Hunter.

Already troubled class? Other people are saying now because of Old Scratches Boost, Witch Doctors are ranked 2 in PVP, so which is it? Impossible to defeat any melee class with witch hunter trained? Impossible? really, so no witchdoctor is winning at all, or is this an extreme exaggeration?

WitchDoctor's also get teleport so you don't always have to run everywhere. Mojo Storm, a spell that hits 9 squares and can naturally do over 600 damage to all 9 squares, more when boosted. again, you are over exaggerating which is not helping your cause.

You do realize that it takes 5 practice points to train witch hunter, sounds to me, like that is 5 practice points well used if you can "Always" defeat any witchdoctor of any skill.
Again, because there is a fist icon, you are assuming it only reduces weapon power, this is not accurate. I have seen and tested this, it reduces spell attacks by half. Hence the talent being called Witch Hunter, not Melee Hunter or Weapon Hunter.

What? The Witch Hunter card clearly states -50% weapon power. When it happens, a fist shows up indicating reduced weapon power. Yet you believe it reduces spells by half?

To give you the benefit of the doubt, I went ahead and tested it out myself. In all 5 occasions that I tested it, with different set ups and companions/attacks each time, every single time Witch Hunter reduced Weapon Power by half, not spell power.

I even took a picture for you, here over in Central.

It is not a bug because that is what the card clearly says it does. It would be a bug if it was behaving like you say it does.

Already troubled class? Other people are saying now because of Old Scratches Boost, Witch Doctors are ranked 2 in PVP, so which is it?

I personally still don't have any trouble vs Witches. The scratch boost definitely helped, but by no means did it solve any of the problems the class has. People who are jumping the gun and saying Witches are top 2 need to sit back and rethink a bit.

You do realize that it takes 5 practice points to train witch hunter, sounds to me, like that is 5 practice points well used if you can "Always" defeat any witchdoctor of any skill.

If it was JUST to get Witch Hunter, then I agree with you, 5 points wouldn't be worth it. However, since almost everyone trains Spooky 2, all you need is one point for the Witch Hunter. Heck, even if you didn't train spooky 2 and want Witch Hunter, you can get Grant Witch Hunter from a pet. The Witchdoctor Apex Shark came with it during the summer.

The argument of it needing so many points is silly. Muskets train spooky 2 for bombs and heals. Privy train spooky 2. Swash train it for poisons and bleed. Its literally available for one point or for no points through a pet.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Darth JT on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
Again, because there is a fist icon, you are assuming it only reduces weapon power, this is not accurate. I have seen and tested this, it reduces spell attacks by half. Hence the talent being called Witch Hunter, not Melee Hunter or Weapon Hunter.

Already troubled class? Other people are saying now because of Old Scratches Boost, Witch Doctors are ranked 2 in PVP, so which is it? Impossible to defeat any melee class with witch hunter trained? Impossible? really, so no witchdoctor is winning at all, or is this an extreme exaggeration?

WitchDoctor's also get teleport so you don't always have to run everywhere. Mojo Storm, a spell that hits 9 squares and can naturally do over 600 damage to all 9 squares, more when boosted. again, you are over exaggerating which is not helping your cause.

You do realize that it takes 5 practice points to train witch hunter, sounds to me, like that is 5 practice points well used if you can "Always" defeat any witchdoctor of any skill.
Sorry Darth, but it does not reduce spell power at all. It reduces the damage from a simple wand attack, but not spell power. Others can confirm this as well.

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