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To Ratbeard on Hidden: Almost but not quite

2
AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
I have just a few quick questions based on all the matches you played since yesterday afternoon.

If you're a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of equipment for your pirate? What are you using?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of pets?
  • What pets did you use? What talents are you looking for?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets after you used Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your "approach" to each target?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?

If you're not a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of defensive buffs to prepare for incoming Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets for your defensive buffs?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?
-How did the changes affect your team composition?

No effect on team composition- I ran my usual Ratbeard Fan Subodai Combo.

-Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?

Nope- N/A

-Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?

First Strike 3 replaced cheap shot 3 on Ratbeard(a tough choice I must tell you)

-How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?

Added First strike 3 in exchange for Cheap shot 3 on Ratbeard

-How did the changes affect your choice of equipment for your pirate? What are you using?

No equipment change was made. In test I am using:
Hat: Assassins Strike/Walk in Darkness
Robe: Revive
Boots: Valor's Fortress
Weapon: Legatus Set
Eye-patch: Sky Spirit
Totem: Burst Fire
Necklace: Purge Magic
Ring: Uncanny Shot

In Live I am using a different set I am not willing to divulge here.

How did the changes affect your choice of pets?

Choice of pet is the same: Whichever has the talents I want and can fly or otherwise avoid traps.

What pets did you use? What talents are you looking for?

I used my pet with scent 2 grants bladestorm charming gaze 2. My ideal pet would now be grants relentless grants elusive scent 2. Powers should be grant strength buff/grant agility buff and heal.

How did the changes affect your choice of targets after you used Black Fog?

I reduced dodge on the hidden enemy swash exposed myself and let him attempt to assassins me. Needless to say with his dodge reduced 75% and him triggering First strike and Ripostes to burst fire I won that damage exchange on his turn.

How did the changes affect your "approach" to each target?

No change whatsoever- I used my black fog first as bait for him to use his black fog and it worked perfectly.

How many matches have you played with the new settings?

One

How many matches did you win?

One

How many matches did you lose?

Zero

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks.

That's incorrect. And it's frustrating because I know that you know it's incorrect.

What happens to a Swashbuckler who is attacked by a hidden ranged attacker? Or a magic attacker?

What happens when he is attacked by a hidden melee attacker, and that one melee attacker triggers all three First Strikes before the second attacker moves in?

You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden.

That's correct. It's also in direct opposition to your first statement, which is how I know that you know it's not true that Swashbucklers are "immune" to hidden.

Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged.

Again, correct. Which is another way of saying that Swashbucklers who use Black Fog now have to make more informed decisions about who they attack-- and especially so for Fogged companions.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

There are pets with Scent-- but nobody wants to use them because they are "not reliable."

There are companions (many, many companions) who now have rank 3 of a 100% proof against Hide-- but nobody wants to use them because they'd have to sacrifice something cooler. (And by "sacrifice" I mean, "Spend my brand new unlocked talent slots on anything besides more sick offense.")

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power. Some folks (not you necessarily) seem to be moving the goalposts to now apparently include, "And I don't want to have to change my team, my strategy, or otherwise be inconvenienced thinking about how to counter it."

I appreciate you helping to look for the right fix.
That's incorrect....
You are right of course- I should have clarified(A swashbuckler is now immune to melee hidden). That being said-A swashbuckler only has to realistically worry about a ranged hidden attack from the musketeer class and a fellow swash's Ranged unit. In terms of magical attacks- Any witch worth his/her salt will be using spell power and witch doctor companions are as rare as the Easter Bunny(and about as effective). As for a swash being attacked by a melee unit using all first strikes and then being attacked by another hidden unit. There are only 2 companions in the game with the ability to utilize an offensive hide- kan-po and clone and sarah steele and clone.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

The targets remain just as viable-it all comes down to the swashbuckler having the presence of mind to read his opponent's epics and counter with the opposing class.

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power.

My solution isn't a perfect counter. It can still be defied via walking through another unit or the opponent's epic missing. The difference is the prerogative to end hidden is not necessarily in the swash's hand with my change while the swash has complete liberty under your current change.

Developer
Stormy Sam Templet... on Aug 1, 2015 wrote:
Just my speculations on Black Fog vs. Other classes.

Fog v.? With the array of swashbuckler companions, and with most being able to get first strike 3, you can be immune to melee hidden attacks. This makes buckler mirrors more interesting, as they have to work around not using hidden. The only problem is that basically any companion w/out FS3 will die. This type of targeting can be bad, but it is understandable at this point in the meta. In summary, RatBeard made FS3 a 'meta' epic.
Fog v.? Nothing too much changed here. However, Bonnie can get Quick Draw 3, so Nausica might be dead for other bucklers in this kind of matchup, we'll see I suppose. Majority of s use all melee, so I guess it depends on the setup, but generally it is the same fight.
Fog v.? With the amount of Forts one Privateer can get(and VA), having even one FS3 companion (ex.RatBeard) is extremely helpful. If you protect yourself and only one or two companions, at worst you can lose one companion(maybe 2).
Fog v? Rarely does a Buckler make a Witchdoctor, in addition no WD companion I have seen can get intuition, so this update impacted nothing for them(RatBeard stated in another post he would add intuition to companions in another thread)
Fog v ? It is hard to tell how this impacted, because there are variables. For 'meta' s we need something both offensive and defensive to stay alive. The FS3 companions for s are somewhat limited,(there are 8,and only 3 are specific), however most would still not even be able to hold themselves in a fight. Even If I used RatBeard, they would simply target the offensive companions s would need to compensate for the loss of offense. In Summary, s still need something to have at least a semi- reliable counter, otherwise the entire class has to change its whole style of play so s get one power to stay the same. Maybe something w/Hold the line 3?

Scent Is 'unreliable' because of how the AI works. maybe allow scent pets to walk towards hidden players?
Fog v? Rarely does a Buckler make a Witchdoctor, in addition no WD companion I have seen can get intuition, so this update impacted nothing for them(RatBeard stated in another post he would add intuition to companions in another thread)

Yes, it's gone from "almost none of them" to "almost all of them." I'll clarify that to, "Almost all WDs that are not weird melee hybrids." Pretty much if they had the suite of magic-based talents, they should be able to train Intuition 3. It may not be 100% but it's really close.

Scent Is 'unreliable' because of how the AI works. maybe allow scent pets to walk towards hidden players?


Or at least towards their owner...

Developer
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 2, 2015 wrote:
That's incorrect....
You are right of course- I should have clarified(A swashbuckler is now immune to melee hidden). That being said-A swashbuckler only has to realistically worry about a ranged hidden attack from the musketeer class and a fellow swash's Ranged unit. In terms of magical attacks- Any witch worth his/her salt will be using spell power and witch doctor companions are as rare as the Easter Bunny(and about as effective). As for a swash being attacked by a melee unit using all first strikes and then being attacked by another hidden unit. There are only 2 companions in the game with the ability to utilize an offensive hide- kan-po and clone and sarah steele and clone.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

The targets remain just as viable-it all comes down to the swashbuckler having the presence of mind to read his opponent's epics and counter with the opposing class.

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power.

My solution isn't a perfect counter. It can still be defied via walking through another unit or the opponent's epic missing. The difference is the prerogative to end hidden is not necessarily in the swash's hand with my change while the swash has complete liberty under your current change.
Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

The targets remain just as viable-it all comes down to the swashbuckler having the presence of mind to read his opponent's epics and counter with the opposing class.

That assumes that you bring companions of the opposing class. If you don't bring a mixed team, you run the risk of not being to use hide at all against a similar homogenous team. And if you do bring a mixed team, then you do in fact have fewer valid targets. You will have to split your team's attacks to prevent being unhidden. 2 is less than 4.

Not only do you have to split your targets, it's not just a matter of simple math-- "I'll send these two on these guys and these two on these guys." The defender is empowered by the restrictions you now have to deal with. You must respond your opponent's positioning. He can reliably draw your melee units towards his ranged units and your ranged units towards his melee units because he knows you want that sweet sweet hide. (Or do you?)And if you bring a mixed team and he brings a homogenous team, then half your hidden guys don't get to use hide.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
831
i think everyone is forgetting privateers only have have 3 attackers unless you wanna sacrifice forts, heals, and bombs for attacks, in which case your in an even worse position because now you cant protect your companions at all.

when privateers lose just 1 companion we lose 1/3 of our attacking power, if we also bring someone with first strike 3 or overwatch 3, we then basically lose another attacker since they generally can only hit once a round, 1 attacker is not enough to fight any buckler whos team has everyone fresh out of fog

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