The Current State of Pirate101 PvP.

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
stormy quentin ver... on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
This is why we need to have a penalty for declining matches. Personally, I look forward to doing any PVP match, and am glad when the window pops up asking me to accept the match.

But what usually happens is: I click to accept the match, then a few seconds later, the other person declines and it goes back to "Finding Opponent". Then, the same thing happens again, I accept, and the other person declines. This keeps going, often for over 10-20 cycles.

If this other person was initially in the queue and then had to leave for some reason, he or she would just decline the one match and then leave, and could live with taking a small hit in rank points (maybe 5?)

On the other hand, I cant think of a good reason for a person to go on a "relentless chain" of declining matches. If that small penalty was in place, that person would end up losing a lot of points for trying to do this, and therefore this type of "cheating" in rank could be eliminated or greatly reduced.
I think losing points is a bit over the top even if it's a small amount, I think just adding a flee timer also for people who flee during their matches would be fine like they have on Wiz. Just 5 minute punishment if they flee/decline a match. It works on Wiz and other MMO's so why fix what's not broken?

Petty Officer
Nov 22, 2010
83
anecorbie on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
Actually the average Privy has at least two FMB and is capable of gaining two more.
1. if you move first, the privy will hold off using BoD and just wait until your team needs to get together.
2. Options
a) rather problematic if you don't have a shield or buff - privy team will just destroy you. And Muskets aren't known for rushing.
b) best tanky melee companion could be avoided if they chose to hit you because you've stupidly rushed them.
c) yes, call everyone here a cry baby, even I haven't done that.
Actually I owe many here a HUGE apology, as I've finally met a Privy who BoDed me and my team just reduced my health to yellow - now I ask you, WHY can't my dodge kick in and save me? This at the very least would help.
And he had Old Scratch with Nausica and Marchioness.
I knew what was coming after the BoD. I fled - and if you're one of my friends, you know I NEVER do that - PVP or PVE. I'll go down in defeat or pull a fantastic, last minute save; but I wasn't going to fight a hopeless scenario.
First off, how did you figure I was calling everybody a cry baby? That was A. A joke and B. Completely false. Please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion. Moving on to your point about muskets not rushing. Sure, they're not, but they can be. Nausica, your pirate(with fast 2), and Chantal(Sniper Shot) are all decent-to-ok rushing choices. Finally, if luck gives you a hand and you get to go first, and split up, why would you ever need to be wishing BOD range? You can do everything(besides soul shroud) from 2+ range.

Can't think of a joke that won't be over thought here,
Matthew Walker

Developer
Alex Hawkins on Jun 30, 2016 wrote:
Can we get any word on the 4v4 Fort glitch? It seems to be the one thing that you guys always seem to avoid even talking about. The original post, and many posts in this thread, talked about the fort glitch, yet the first developer response we get completely ignores that part of the posts. This isn't a new glitch, this has been around for at least 2 years already. I think 2 years is plenty of time for (a), (b) and (c). When can we expect you guys to act (d)?

Were you guys even aware of it? Have you guys tried to fix it? Is there no way to fix it at the moment?

Just give us a signal that you guys are aware of it and looking into it, please.
I hadn't seen it until this thread. (And it sounds like something we'll need a programmer to fix!)

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
Can you explain to me why players are declining matches? Just what is the advantage in declining? I don't understand - you don't see who you're matched with so why is it happening?
People do this to try to boost their rank score. There are 2 ways for them to do it:

1) They have multiple accounts, so they will know right away if they matched up with "themselves". If its someone else, they will keep declining until they match with themselves

2) They try to match with friends. Once they get a match, they will ask their friend if they got paired. They can tell because the timer to accept the match will be the same for both of them.

In both cases, they will keep declining the match until they get a match with their own "other account" or with their friend.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
TechnomagePvP on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
I think losing points is a bit over the top even if it's a small amount, I think just adding a flee timer also for people who flee during their matches would be fine like they have on Wiz. Just 5 minute punishment if they flee/decline a match. It works on Wiz and other MMO's so why fix what's not broken?
I dont play Wiz so I wouldnt know, but yeah, a 5 minute timer could be effective as well.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
145
Ratbeard on Jul 3, 2016 wrote:
I hadn't seen it until this thread. (And it sounds like something we'll need a programmer to fix!)
Thank you. Glad that this thread served a purpose to make KingsIsle aware of the bug! If you would like more details on it, let us know. I am sure many of us would be glad to make a separate thread with all the info we know about it. We have 2 years dealing with it after all.

@anecorbie, "Can you explain to me why players are declining matches? Just what is the advantage in declining? I don't understand - you don't see who you're matched with so why is it happening?"

Simply put, there are certain players in the arena that constantly decline matches to avoid tough match ups, specifically quentin. I have seen first hand in the brawling hall people asking one another "did I pull you?" when queue pops up, and if their friend says no, they figure is quentin (which usually is if he's online) and decline the match. Is a bit pathetic really. Their advantage they see is getting someone easier to beat than quentin.

There are multiple ways to see who you are against before the match starts. When the match queue pops up, the little book thing appears on top of the player. So players can look around the brawling hall to see who else has the book on top of their head and that is probably their opponent. In the case of quentin, usually all he does is ranked PvP, so when people see him online or in the brawling hall, they guess that he is in queue and decline a lot of matches until they are sure they have pulled one of their friends instead.

I'm not the type to name names, never have been, but if you spend 20 minutes in the brawling hall when quentin is online, you'll see these players talking about dodging matches openly and asking one another "did I pull you?"

I like the idea Technomage had more than quentin's though. I think just a "leave" timer would be nice. So first leave is 5 minutes. If you dodge another queue again right after that, then timer goes up to 30mins, etc. Like when you fail unlocking your phone multiple times and timer goes up the more you fail.

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
anecorbie on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
I'm NOT saying it's fine that any class get one rounded, but if this power was really "OP" then it would have the same result for all classes.
( As I'm beginning to see that it is - having the same result. )
Not quite sure it should be banned, but a moratorium on use in the first round where no one can move could be a solution.
Oh and here's a list of items that grants Firstmate's Boon - as you can see there are four and they all came from just a few runs of the Great Machine.
hat: Mosquera Cordoba
jacket: Liberi Greatcoat
boots: Pangare Sandals
necklace: Capitano Necklace
For all I know there may even be a ring and totem that grants this as well!
Not sure if this is double post my computer is acting up.
OP in my opinion is something that results in extremely limited moves or choices without much work to control the situation.
An example of that would be Nausica, assume first turn she is a companion picked. If your fighting a musket they are forced to INSTANTLY make moves to defend against the possibility of a one turn rush that you may never do. You just forced the musket into a situation in which they must prepare for a fort nausica rush or die, yet you don't even NEED to do anything for them to prepare for it.
Another example of OP would be Blast Of Discord. Blast of discord if a privateer is present will threaten the opponent to do one of a few things first round (When you can't move)
1. Use a hide extremely early on when you know you will need it later
2. Waste a fort that you will need later
3. Risk it and benefit from taking the risk or lose
So basically the opponent is forced to make one of these moves, if they take moves one or two you can simply wait it out and do absolutely nothing to already have an advantage, then when they spread out you can punish that easily with individual charges on there companions, if they where a buckler and fogged, you have one round to setup and prepare when they didn't move at all on the turn they fogged.
In both of these situations the only reason there was limited moves to be made was because there was such extreme pressure from these moves, as Nausica can one round a musket, Blast can one round a pirate. The extreme power of these moves result in extremely limited choices with about NO work done by the user to pressure the foes. The reason I see this as a problem is generally pressure requires previous buffs or placement, ex. espirit Toro vs. Buccaneers, Sky spirit and musket bombs, Hold the line and vengeance strike, etc.

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
anecorbie on Jul 2, 2016 wrote:
Can you explain to me why players are declining matches? Just what is the advantage in declining? I don't understand - you don't see who you're matched with so why is it happening?
The reason to decline matches is when you get queued a map appears above your head and as it does to other people, if they get queued right when you do, you can guarantee with 90% certainty that you queued them. When you know who you queued you can leave if you think they will win, stay if you think you will beat them, or play the match regardless.

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Celestialmaster147 on Jun 30, 2016 wrote:
Sorry, wasn't clear enough. I meant Discord is disgusting. I personally have no problem with the opponent fogging round 1. Discord round 1 is really terrible, and requires no strategy at all, and even though I don't like using it against buckler, I am kinda annoyed at myself that I feel the need to use it to try and rid them of their fog

Blast of Discord has worked against fog, where it's not necessarily like an individual attack. I can't really explain it, but think about it as bombs or a mojo storm. The buckler companions hit each other, removing their hide because they have done damage, to their opponent or not.
I've actually had it fizzle.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Quite Jacques on Jun 29, 2016 wrote:
Firstly Blast Of Discord DOESN'T trigger epics such as first strike. Secondly the fact you said it doesn't do much damage in PVE is completely false, it has the POSSIBILITY to continue until there are NO more targets.
The fact is Blast Of Discord is completely unfitting to the class, nor does it fit into a "strategy" game.
Secondly I have a feeling that Blast of Discord will almost regardless of nerfs be OP. If they simply reduce the chance of it hitting then random luck based events still occur, if they make it hit a set amount of times, buckler companions will be terrible as they will do 370-440 a hit, if they make it impossible to use first round, then Freeze boots (if ever coming back) will be outrageously OP, if freeze boots are out of the question simply two companions at full near each other have the possibility to result in one dead and the other at low health. The OP thing about Blast is not what it generally does it's what it CAN do.
That is for KI to decide. I've had this thing fizzle, I've had it cause very little damage, and I had it cause a lot of damage. I think there is risk in using it. The random nature of it sometimes makes it actually a bad move.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Ratbeard on Jun 29, 2016 wrote:
1) The issue with Charm is its disparate effects based on which player goes first. It's easy to turn it back on, but I suspect you'll quickly ask for it to be turned off again. It's off now because of those complaints. (Fixing it has proven extremely thorny.)

2) Good idea.

And now... Let's all remember back to the last update, when certain people had a long list of changes that absolutely had to be made before witch doctors could possibly be competitive again, that none of the changes made to Black Fog/First Strike would have any effect to rein in Swashbucklers, and so on.

You should know by now that we (a) listen, (b) watch, (c) wait, (d) act. Every single update-- every single update-- we go through this process where everybody tries to figure out how the new powers fit into the meta. You *think* you understand how all the powers will fit, and I *think* I know how all the new powers will fit, but it is too early to tell. Because you all are sneaky and smart. You need some time to shatter your old strategies and put the pieces back together again. And we need to see you do that. Because frankly, if we're just theory-casting, and we have competing theories (as we usually do...)-- well, we default to the designer. I have been wrong in the past, I'll be wrong in the future-- and we'll make changes.

But we are not reactionary, and not going to play whack-a-mole with whatever the perceived "most broken thing ever!" is at any given time.

This is not a "preponderance of evidence" process but a "beyond a reasonable doubt" process. (Can you tell I've had jury duty twice in the last month?)

There's a few things mentioned I'd like to try to fix:

1) FMB should not be granting hidden damage bonus. I'll fix it if I can. And, although I haven't seen this mentioned yet, I'll be making it so that it can't be stacked with itself.

2) BoD. If I can find a way to lessen the "first turn" impact without nerfing the utility of this power as a timely response to summons, I'll do so.
Was this power made specifically for pvp? I think fog used first round is devastating too but I never asked for a change to it. Especially when doing a team up with three swashbucklers on tower floor nine. Yeah they all charged me.... lol

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Quite Jacques on Jun 29, 2016 wrote:
I disagree with your suggestions for BOD and First mate's boon. Firstly worth mentioning BOD, in my opinions has no place in the GAME itself as it is literally 100% luck, not fitting a "strategy" game. As to first mate's boon, I find 25% to be a little minuscule. I will admit I generally use weapons such as sea sheller which may make it seem smaller to me, but 25% sounds like 60 damage boost, this is less then the average buck has armor. Frankly the original attack buff (Forgot name because its so useless) gives about 25 assuming not boosted by will and 60 though better is not much useful compared to, say a kraken's coils. To be honest I feel like a damage buff that's actually good would of been appropriate assuming scratch didn't exist.
Also first mate's boon is yes powerful, but not to an insane extent as Blast Of Discord. I feel like first mate's boon deserves at least a little time before its reduced down to 60 damage, 120 seems appropriate to me.
A weaker first mate's boon would of been appropriate first season for privateer, as I will say I feel like a good buck running the seriously underrated Tide 3 Elusive 3 would leave me hopeless. Egg Shen would only hit with his too criticals then miss even with a zeal thanks to the combo, toro would get stunned then chained, even with zeal, and bonnie died even with forts.
Also if first mate's boon drops damage to say 120 then it should either,
A. get 3 range instead of 1
or
B. lose the damage debuff to the caster
Also I completely agree scratch has no need for 3 buffs generally all you need for him to be useful is the 25% buff which adds about 100 or so to guns and group heals.
Worth mentioning if changes are applied then witch and musket need buffing, such as better dodge, more range, changing critical formula, or making the musket gear dropped by Kane not complete garbage that will only ever be useful for stitching.
Though I feel the current critical mechanics need to be changed as fast as everything else.
Every time privateer powers come out there seems to be a nerf cry. Or if anything new comes out there is some sort of protests or demands. I guess I'll never stop wondering why people can't just be happy with anything.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
8698
Quite Jacques on Jul 3, 2016 wrote:
The reason to decline matches is when you get queued a map appears above your head and as it does to other people, if they get queued right when you do, you can guarantee with 90% certainty that you queued them. When you know who you queued you can leave if you think they will win, stay if you think you will beat them, or play the match regardless.
That's unsporting and against the spirit of PVP. Those aren't true competitors, but lazy babies.

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
I have an idea the ranked pvp arena where ranked battles can be watch publically. But to keep the talking down chat is disabled inside.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
8698
I'm against an out-right ban on a class power, but there are ways that the problem can be solved:
1. A first round "freeze" on BoD. First round isn't the only round when a team may be together.
2. An adjustment allowing defensive talents to come into play - dodge or block. ( for PVP only )
3. As BoD seems to act as a team frenzy, why not have a dodge or block end it? ( for PVP only )
Only Ratbeard can say if these last 2 suggestions are feasible. All players here are just asking for a fair chance against what seems to be an insurmountable challenge.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
8698
I have a few suggestions for BoD: ( PVP only )
1. A first round "freeze". First round isn't the only round when a team may be gathered in one spot.
2. Allow defensive talents to activate in response to a BoD attack - dodging or blocking.
3. Since BoD seems to act like a team frenzy, then let a block or dodge stop BoD.
Only Ratbeard can say if these suggestions are feasible, but I would like to hear your input on these suggestions.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
8698
DuranteRamses87 on Jul 3, 2016 wrote:
Was this power made specifically for pvp? I think fog used first round is devastating too but I never asked for a change to it. Especially when doing a team up with three swashbucklers on tower floor nine. Yeah they all charged me.... lol

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Fog first round doesn't attack your team. BoD is an attack. You know very well how to counter a fog, as I've seen you do.

Developer
Alex Hawkins on Jul 3, 2016 wrote:
Thank you. Glad that this thread served a purpose to make KingsIsle aware of the bug! If you would like more details on it, let us know. I am sure many of us would be glad to make a separate thread with all the info we know about it. We have 2 years dealing with it after all.

@anecorbie, "Can you explain to me why players are declining matches? Just what is the advantage in declining? I don't understand - you don't see who you're matched with so why is it happening?"

Simply put, there are certain players in the arena that constantly decline matches to avoid tough match ups, specifically quentin. I have seen first hand in the brawling hall people asking one another "did I pull you?" when queue pops up, and if their friend says no, they figure is quentin (which usually is if he's online) and decline the match. Is a bit pathetic really. Their advantage they see is getting someone easier to beat than quentin.

There are multiple ways to see who you are against before the match starts. When the match queue pops up, the little book thing appears on top of the player. So players can look around the brawling hall to see who else has the book on top of their head and that is probably their opponent. In the case of quentin, usually all he does is ranked PvP, so when people see him online or in the brawling hall, they guess that he is in queue and decline a lot of matches until they are sure they have pulled one of their friends instead.

I'm not the type to name names, never have been, but if you spend 20 minutes in the brawling hall when quentin is online, you'll see these players talking about dodging matches openly and asking one another "did I pull you?"

I like the idea Technomage had more than quentin's though. I think just a "leave" timer would be nice. So first leave is 5 minutes. If you dodge another queue again right after that, then timer goes up to 30mins, etc. Like when you fail unlocking your phone multiple times and timer goes up the more you fail.
Yes, please make a separate thread for the 4v4 issue. I'll look into it when I return from vacation.

Developer
Alex Hawkins on Jul 3, 2016 wrote:
Thank you. Glad that this thread served a purpose to make KingsIsle aware of the bug! If you would like more details on it, let us know. I am sure many of us would be glad to make a separate thread with all the info we know about it. We have 2 years dealing with it after all.

@anecorbie, "Can you explain to me why players are declining matches? Just what is the advantage in declining? I don't understand - you don't see who you're matched with so why is it happening?"

Simply put, there are certain players in the arena that constantly decline matches to avoid tough match ups, specifically quentin. I have seen first hand in the brawling hall people asking one another "did I pull you?" when queue pops up, and if their friend says no, they figure is quentin (which usually is if he's online) and decline the match. Is a bit pathetic really. Their advantage they see is getting someone easier to beat than quentin.

There are multiple ways to see who you are against before the match starts. When the match queue pops up, the little book thing appears on top of the player. So players can look around the brawling hall to see who else has the book on top of their head and that is probably their opponent. In the case of quentin, usually all he does is ranked PvP, so when people see him online or in the brawling hall, they guess that he is in queue and decline a lot of matches until they are sure they have pulled one of their friends instead.

I'm not the type to name names, never have been, but if you spend 20 minutes in the brawling hall when quentin is online, you'll see these players talking about dodging matches openly and asking one another "did I pull you?"

I like the idea Technomage had more than quentin's though. I think just a "leave" timer would be nice. So first leave is 5 minutes. If you dodge another queue again right after that, then timer goes up to 30mins, etc. Like when you fail unlocking your phone multiple times and timer goes up the more you fail.
Simply put, there are certain players in the arena that constantly decline matches to avoid tough match ups, specifically quentin. I have seen first hand in the brawling hall people asking one another "did I pull you?" when queue pops up, and if their friend says no, they figure is quentin (which usually is if he's online) and decline the match. Is a bit pathetic really. Their advantage they see is getting someone easier to beat than quentin.

I'm disgusted by that.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Jul 5, 2016 wrote:
Simply put, there are certain players in the arena that constantly decline matches to avoid tough match ups, specifically quentin. I have seen first hand in the brawling hall people asking one another "did I pull you?" when queue pops up, and if their friend says no, they figure is quentin (which usually is if he's online) and decline the match. Is a bit pathetic really. Their advantage they see is getting someone easier to beat than quentin.

I'm disgusted by that.
Well this has been going on since summer really /: there are also the ones that use 2 accounts and just try to get them to boost themselves to champion by just facing themselves over and over. And I'm sure your aware how they exploit this in Battle Royale as well right?

Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
I can see a lot of people going off the deep end as usual. Why not propose simple solutions:

1. BOD hardly ever works out, but when it does it can be devastating, why not just make it so it can not be used turn 1. This will still keep it around for its original purpose which was to counter summons spams.

2. Changing black fog is just a ridiculous thing to ask for in my opinion, like someone else said, then just get rid of one valuable power from every class.

3. Fix first mate's boon so it can not transfer the 2x hide damage, which I understand from another post is already being worked on. Consider capping at some factor of total damage boost that can be transferred, not really sure.

4. I will leave Nausica for people more experienced than myself to address.

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
anecorbie on Jul 4, 2016 wrote:
That's unsporting and against the spirit of PVP. Those aren't true competitors, but lazy babies.
That's NOTHING compared to the ability people had first season to royale boost 100%. I've seen multiple people first season who 100% royale boosted, and with 100% certainty I know this as I've played on many characters and never seen them above gladiator.

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
anecorbie on Jul 4, 2016 wrote:
I have a few suggestions for BoD: ( PVP only )
1. A first round "freeze". First round isn't the only round when a team may be gathered in one spot.
2. Allow defensive talents to activate in response to a BoD attack - dodging or blocking.
3. Since BoD seems to act like a team frenzy, then let a block or dodge stop BoD.
Only Ratbeard can say if these suggestions are feasible, but I would like to hear your input on these suggestions.
BOD in my opinion should be replaced with another power for Privy, In my opinion the perfect power to add now would be Critical block, and toss it on some gear for other classes, critical block would be perfect.

Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
Quite Jacques on Jul 5, 2016 wrote:
BOD in my opinion should be replaced with another power for Privy, In my opinion the perfect power to add now would be Critical block, and toss it on some gear for other classes, critical block would be perfect.
I had another idea as well for a power to replace it. I don't know what it would be called, but for one turn it causes the opponent and his or her companions to each lose three epic talents. So for example, a buckler would go down to riposte 2, first strike 2, and lose turn the tide if the dragon axe was worn. You could make the lost epics completely random so it's possible a buccaneer could lose vengeance strike completely for a turn. I think this would be a lot more strategic and original than what is essentially a chain lighting with infinite range to cast.

Petty Officer
Jul 25, 2013
75
anecorbie on Jul 4, 2016 wrote:
I'm against an out-right ban on a class power, but there are ways that the problem can be solved:
1. A first round "freeze" on BoD. First round isn't the only round when a team may be together.
2. An adjustment allowing defensive talents to come into play - dodge or block. ( for PVP only )
3. As BoD seems to act as a team frenzy, why not have a dodge or block end it? ( for PVP only )
Only Ratbeard can say if these last 2 suggestions are feasible. All players here are just asking for a fair chance against what seems to be an insurmountable challenge.
Dodge or block do stop discord, however, it is rarely seen. All units accuracy are changed to 75% while the power is still in effect. Additionally, each unit has a 75% chance to be affected by the power, which is why it ends before someone dodges. I think Discord should be changed to having a maximum amount of hits, maybe up to 2 hits per companion?