The Buccaneer Debate on whether they deserve more

AuthorMessage
Bosun
Aug 21, 2009
358
is rather comical. The buccaneer players state that since they are supposed to be the tank class that they should have increased magic protection to which the other classes say no and that buccaneers are supposed to be melee tanks not magic tanks. At the same time swashbucklers are supposed to be buccaneer killers. If you get the gist of all of this, then you understand why it is so funny. Witchdoctor, musketeer, and privateers all use magic based attacks (at least depending how you build your privateer). That leaves swashbuckler class as the only class the buccaneer is supposed to be a tank against, but wait, swashbucklers are buccaneer killers.

Bosun
Aug 21, 2009
358
The mechanics of the buccaneer are to say the least, messed up. They get few special attacks and the special attacks they do get are aimed at dropping accuracy for 5 to 10 rounds, while their special talents are aimed at them getting hit to do additional attacks and then being able to continue to attack if they kill. When I say when they are hit this means by melee attack only, if they don't get hit as such they don't get to use their main talent, and if they use their special attack card that drops accuracy then whatever melee they hit likely isn't going to hit them back to trigger their talent. This contrasts with a talent such as relentless which works whether you hit melee or non-melee and requires no action made by the opposing side to allow it to work.

As such the buccaneer class has been given so much less than other character classes, cause the buccaneer's special abilities have been conditioned and conditioned to only work on 1/3rd of whatever they go up against, and their special attack cards worsen the matter by ensuring they won't likely get hit to set off their bonus attacks and to make matters even worse... most all character classes will use magical attacks in PvP and in PVE against the game isn't that much different.

The buccaneer needs a lot more than its given cause what it has been given is only equates to about 1/3rd of what every other class has been given.

Commodore
Jul 07, 2013
928
Remember there's always a bigger fish. No matter how you train or what class you are.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Lieutenant
Jul 09, 2009
149
seasnake on Mar 11, 2014 wrote:
is rather comical. The buccaneer players state that since they are supposed to be the tank class that they should have increased magic protection to which the other classes say no and that buccaneers are supposed to be melee tanks not magic tanks. At the same time swashbucklers are supposed to be buccaneer killers. If you get the gist of all of this, then you understand why it is so funny. Witchdoctor, musketeer, and privateers all use magic based attacks (at least depending how you build your privateer). That leaves swashbuckler class as the only class the buccaneer is supposed to be a tank against, but wait, swashbucklers are buccaneer killers.
No, Swashbucklers are not meant to counter Buccaneers. Buccaneers are physical tanks, not magical hence why they do not receive protection from magic-based attacks.

Gunner's Mate
Jun 27, 2013
222
: riposte and first strike over vengeance strike
: powerful magic attacks - no chains with vengeance
: super crazy buffing dodging and using companion's riposte
: trick shots and traps - also no chains
: unpredictable

Gunner's Mate
Jun 27, 2013
222
I am a witchdoctor though. But I agree, buccs need more than 4 special attacks.

Developer
Lucas Walker on Mar 13, 2014 wrote:
No, Swashbucklers are not meant to counter Buccaneers. Buccaneers are physical tanks, not magical hence why they do not receive protection from magic-based attacks.
Witchdoctors pose the greatest threat to Buccaneers-- high Will vs. low Will, and Buccaneers have very low resist.

Of course Buccaneers also pose the greatest threat to Witchdoctors-- high Str vs. low Str, and Witchdoctors have very low armor.

Petty Officer
Oct 29, 2012
80
I am not putting my hat in for either side in this debate, but I do want to bring up glancing blow and reckless frenzy. Both of these attacks are forms of relentless. Glancing blow works the same as relentless except that it may land an attack on an adjacent enemy and not the original. Also the reckless frenzy allows Buccs to land numerous attacks way more than any relentless ability ever has. I know Reckless Frenzy is a one time use and does cause the user to lose some health, but remember buccs do have good abilities and they are not as powerless as you make them out to be sometimes.

Ensign
Feb 08, 2014
23
Psst. Buccaneers are physical tanks.

Bosun
Aug 21, 2009
358
Ultimatemagic1 on Mar 14, 2014 wrote:
Psst. Buccaneers are physical tanks.
In PvP buccaneers fail as tanks, physical and otherwise. To approach ranged troops is to be hit by them over and over again, and to attack a swashbuckler means to be hit many times first by their first strike as well as their repel borders. Yes, buccaneers do get to hit when they are hit, but it works in such a way that those they attack get all their first strikes in a row before the buccaneer ever gets to hit back.

When it comes to physical melee buccaneers are pretty much a fail against witchdoctors, privateers, and even a few musketeers. The reason is that all of these carry the mojo blade card that does incredibly high magical damage to whomever is next to them. As such buccaneers fail when moving forward against anyone, fail when they try to strike anyone as they always attack last while being hit so many times first that it is pathetic, and then fail again when next to most anyone as buccaneers with naturally low wisdom and rarely any magical defense get hit hard by mojo blade.

To top all of this off, buccaneers aren't given the same sort of access to the greater juju card that all of the other classes have. Buccaneers can only farm a high level ring from Zeena. The lower level ring and charm that carries it for them requires one to have Sarah Steel and since its a promotion quest can not be accessed after her promotion which makes these items for the buccaneer impossible to farm and get.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6038
seasnake on Mar 15, 2014 wrote:
In PvP buccaneers fail as tanks, physical and otherwise. To approach ranged troops is to be hit by them over and over again, and to attack a swashbuckler means to be hit many times first by their first strike as well as their repel borders. Yes, buccaneers do get to hit when they are hit, but it works in such a way that those they attack get all their first strikes in a row before the buccaneer ever gets to hit back.

When it comes to physical melee buccaneers are pretty much a fail against witchdoctors, privateers, and even a few musketeers. The reason is that all of these carry the mojo blade card that does incredibly high magical damage to whomever is next to them. As such buccaneers fail when moving forward against anyone, fail when they try to strike anyone as they always attack last while being hit so many times first that it is pathetic, and then fail again when next to most anyone as buccaneers with naturally low wisdom and rarely any magical defense get hit hard by mojo blade.

To top all of this off, buccaneers aren't given the same sort of access to the greater juju card that all of the other classes have. Buccaneers can only farm a high level ring from Zeena. The lower level ring and charm that carries it for them requires one to have Sarah Steel and since its a promotion quest can not be accessed after her promotion which makes these items for the buccaneer impossible to farm and get.
Please see my comments in your duplicate post. My buccaneer has three Great Jujus. Three can be dropped in Marleybone and one is from a boss ship in the Kotan skyway.

Bosun
Aug 21, 2009
358
Ratbeard on Mar 14, 2014 wrote:
Witchdoctors pose the greatest threat to Buccaneers-- high Will vs. low Will, and Buccaneers have very low resist.

Of course Buccaneers also pose the greatest threat to Witchdoctors-- high Str vs. low Str, and Witchdoctors have very low armor.
except the witchdoctor will kill the buccaneer both up close and at a distance, if the buccaneer can manage to get up next to a good witchdoctor and fails to kill on the initial turn after being hit many times over by ranged defenders then expect a huge one hit kill attack

likewise, if a buccaneer goes up against a swashbuckler expect the ranged defenders to hit the buccaneer several times over before the buccaneer gets to the swashbuckler, and then expect first strike and reckless frenzy to hit the buccaneer five or six times before the buccaneer is allowed to strike

Ensign
Feb 08, 2014
23
seasnake on Mar 15, 2014 wrote:
In PvP buccaneers fail as tanks, physical and otherwise. To approach ranged troops is to be hit by them over and over again, and to attack a swashbuckler means to be hit many times first by their first strike as well as their repel borders. Yes, buccaneers do get to hit when they are hit, but it works in such a way that those they attack get all their first strikes in a row before the buccaneer ever gets to hit back.

When it comes to physical melee buccaneers are pretty much a fail against witchdoctors, privateers, and even a few musketeers. The reason is that all of these carry the mojo blade card that does incredibly high magical damage to whomever is next to them. As such buccaneers fail when moving forward against anyone, fail when they try to strike anyone as they always attack last while being hit so many times first that it is pathetic, and then fail again when next to most anyone as buccaneers with naturally low wisdom and rarely any magical defense get hit hard by mojo blade.

To top all of this off, buccaneers aren't given the same sort of access to the greater juju card that all of the other classes have. Buccaneers can only farm a high level ring from Zeena. The lower level ring and charm that carries it for them requires one to have Sarah Steel and since its a promotion quest can not be accessed after her promotion which makes these items for the buccaneer impossible to farm and get.
Fine. They're tanks. Just bad ones.

Bosun
Aug 21, 2009
358
Ultimatemagic1 on Mar 18, 2014 wrote:
Fine. They're tanks. Just bad ones.
no, they completely fail as tanks... they are given a talent that increases hostility towards them and all they have as defense is physical while most attacks against them will be non-physical. If you call buccaneers tanks you must also have to call witchdoctors tanks as they have the highest magic resistance. Privateers tend to have both magic and melee resistance and if you haven't already noticed if you were to add every character type's magic and melee resistance together all of their resistances when summed pretty much equal one another's. There are no tanks in this game and calling buccaneers as such is a joke. Buccaneers are not tanks, they aren't given the same amount of cards and companion access (I hate having a lot of companions so I don't mind the companion thing) and their special talents trigger after everyone else's and are conditioned upon them being hit by melee while those they hit with their special attacks often have their targeting dropped making it harder to trigger their further attack talents. Once again, you go up melee to melee with against a character with high damage, high accuracy, first strike times 3 or 4, relentless times 3, and you are dead before getting to attack when it is your turn, and you are more dead if its their turn. High defense means nothing when damage dealt outstrips defense by quite a lot.

Ensign
Feb 08, 2014
23
seasnake on Mar 18, 2014 wrote:
no, they completely fail as tanks... they are given a talent that increases hostility towards them and all they have as defense is physical while most attacks against them will be non-physical. If you call buccaneers tanks you must also have to call witchdoctors tanks as they have the highest magic resistance. Privateers tend to have both magic and melee resistance and if you haven't already noticed if you were to add every character type's magic and melee resistance together all of their resistances when summed pretty much equal one another's. There are no tanks in this game and calling buccaneers as such is a joke. Buccaneers are not tanks, they aren't given the same amount of cards and companion access (I hate having a lot of companions so I don't mind the companion thing) and their special talents trigger after everyone else's and are conditioned upon them being hit by melee while those they hit with their special attacks often have their targeting dropped making it harder to trigger their further attack talents. Once again, you go up melee to melee with against a character with high damage, high accuracy, first strike times 3 or 4, relentless times 3, and you are dead before getting to attack when it is your turn, and you are more dead if its their turn. High defense means nothing when damage dealt outstrips defense by quite a lot.
They have high defense, High health, not good power, Can move faster than a swash with a charge and take accuracy down. Sure their not perfect, but they are tanks. They have defensive buffs and can get privateers defensives, If they need more they can valor armor. They have the most damageing weapons, but they don't have the highest damage. Buccs are made for charging. Sure swashes can hit buccs fast and hard but a good bucc can tank it. Sure they should get more powers/better ones other than those talents but they can tank, even if its not good. Many people are buccs and they are proud about it. A well armed bucc has the potential to defeat the greatest of his foes. Yes he doesn't have long range but he can get their quickly. Oh and having juju isn't needed. Its just having good gear cards and heal. They also have a great power, reckless frenzy. Once they get their accuracy up, they can destroy others.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 28, 2009
233
I can see from many people that they support their argument of Buccaneers being weak with some of their failures or weaknesses in PVP/PVE.

Let's confirm one thing: Buccaneers are the best Melee tank there is. Their Defensive powers reduce melee damage. Their Levy Call can reduce Musket damage. Any denial in Buccaneers not being a Melee ( and maybe musket ) tank is simply due to a misuse in these useful defensive powers.

Buccaneer strikes, while even I can admit could use a bit of polishing, are the most useful in terms of reducing accuracy, making Musket companions a joke, and every other companion a simple mess. While you guys may complain how "weak" or "useless" they are, it's simply because you've unintentionally have taken it for granted. When you're in the heat of things, it's easy to miss the true effects of these powers, so sometimes, out of frustration, people blame things they feel didn't work quite right. Also, Buccaneers aren't meant to have the strongest strikes, so asking for their strikes to double or even triple in power just kills their true agenda (game-wise). Although I can agree that the Glancing Blow should be increased to at least 75% IMO.

Buccaneers have a HUGE variety of gear, and I'm not joking. To name a few, they can get all the Swashbuckler strikes, some Privateer defenses, heals, some Musket powers, many Witch powers ( even with low Will, these powers are still useful ), and even duplicates of their own powers. Saying Buccaneers lack powers simply means you have yet to find the perfect gear set for Buccaneers. My own Buccaneer has 3 assassin strikes, and a massive increase in Strength from his gear.

Be blessed Buccaneers can STACK their defensive powers, I have seen many people actually complain about this and wish it to be removed. I feel it should remain, as it backs up the Buccaneer meaning of "melee tank". Overall, I feel the only things Buccaneers should receive are Relentless 1 and a slight damage increase with their strikes.

Gunner's Mate
Jun 27, 2013
222
I have a Vicious Charge on my witchdoctor, a rare gear, and it is pretty cool and the attack is very powerful. It may be just me, but Buccaneers are lucky to have those powerful charge attacks.

Lieutenant
Jul 09, 2009
149
Sigh, Buccaneers are amazing tanks. Much like Privateers, they're role is to keep their allies alive, except instead of doing this via universal buffs, they do this through buffing their defenses and absorbing hits instead of letting their allies take the hits. That's why they have Loud and Vengeance Strike. They are supposed to draw enemies towards them and away from their allies.

With a stacked Leviathan's Call and Kraken's Lament, they take any melee hit with ease and dish out damage with Vengeance Strike. Regardless, damage always adds up. You're seeming to think that Buccaneers are going to constant eat up these strikes with little consequences. If you're reckless, you'll fail as a tank and Buccaneer.

The Buccaneer class is designed to be simple so younger ages can play through it easily, but there's still much more to the class. If you're charging without protection early in battle, you deserve to be pummeled by Swashbucklers or overlooking units. Patience is the key when playing a Buccaneer. Take your time to buff your defensive then move in. Buccaneers are not designed to be an unstoppable force so stop complaining that they aren't. The class is pretty balanced as it is now, it just takes work to use. You're not going to dish out as much damage as a Swashbuckler, but you'll take hits way better.

Playing a Buccaneer easily isn't hard to do. Find the synergy in your gear and skills. If a Buccaneer is taking more damage than they're dishing out, then they're failing. Buccaneers and Witchdoctors are checks for each other, so no Buccaneers shouldn't have magical defensive utilities and Witchdoctors should not have physical ones.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 28, 2009
233
Gruesome Richard on Mar 19, 2014 wrote:
I can see from many people that they support their argument of Buccaneers being weak with some of their failures or weaknesses in PVP/PVE.

Let's confirm one thing: Buccaneers are the best Melee tank there is. Their Defensive powers reduce melee damage. Their Levy Call can reduce Musket damage. Any denial in Buccaneers not being a Melee ( and maybe musket ) tank is simply due to a misuse in these useful defensive powers.

Buccaneer strikes, while even I can admit could use a bit of polishing, are the most useful in terms of reducing accuracy, making Musket companions a joke, and every other companion a simple mess. While you guys may complain how "weak" or "useless" they are, it's simply because you've unintentionally have taken it for granted. When you're in the heat of things, it's easy to miss the true effects of these powers, so sometimes, out of frustration, people blame things they feel didn't work quite right. Also, Buccaneers aren't meant to have the strongest strikes, so asking for their strikes to double or even triple in power just kills their true agenda (game-wise). Although I can agree that the Glancing Blow should be increased to at least 75% IMO.

Buccaneers have a HUGE variety of gear, and I'm not joking. To name a few, they can get all the Swashbuckler strikes, some Privateer defenses, heals, some Musket powers, many Witch powers ( even with low Will, these powers are still useful ), and even duplicates of their own powers. Saying Buccaneers lack powers simply means you have yet to find the perfect gear set for Buccaneers. My own Buccaneer has 3 assassin strikes, and a massive increase in Strength from his gear.

Be blessed Buccaneers can STACK their defensive powers, I have seen many people actually complain about this and wish it to be removed. I feel it should remain, as it backs up the Buccaneer meaning of "melee tank". Overall, I feel the only things Buccaneers should receive are Relentless 1 and a slight damage increase with their strikes.
I seem to have missed some other unique Buccaneer talents.

Buccaneers get a talent called Loud which, as it states, makes you a bigger combat threat than your companions. So, in theory, ( Hopefully Ratbeard can correct me on this ) if your companions and yourself all have a "Combat Threat" of 1, Loud would increase your combat threat by 20%. So the chances of the enemy hitting you is now 1.2% and the chances of your companions getting hit is 1%. Of course, the numbers aren't that low, I know other complicated numbers and stuff get applied, which depend on the # of companions in battle ( I believe ). Then, heals, attacks, and other stuff begin to change these numbers around. Sorry for the poor explanation, but basically, it can be argued to be useless in PVP ( besides for minions and pets ), but a very valuable talent in PVE as it makes you the "muscle" in the operation.

As for the Buccaneer epics, Buccaneers are meant to be a muscle type guy, like Mordekai. They don't necessarily strike first, but they are meant to be the intimidation of the team. Now, since our pirates are still very young, I don't think it would be OK to have a Pirate as buff as someone like Mordekai.

Vengeance Strike is definitely a very useful epic to have, claiming it to be useless or just annoying when dealing with those "first strikers" is simply just an overlook on strategy. True, it only activates with a melee hit, but then again, that isn't really a valid argument since Buccaneers are meant to have big and scary weapons, not always guns. There's a reason Buccaneers receive their defensive buffs, and it's to minimize damage taken from enemy melee hits, so that they can maximize their life on the battle field as well as their uses of Vengeance Strike.

I don't see any uselessness with Hold the Line. This is as close to representing a Buccaneer as you can get. A big scary Pirate stopping you from moving past them by just simply standing there. That's the true symbolism of their Strength. Not only that, it can halt enemies from moving towards those companions whom have taken heavy damage. Hold the Line 3 has a more useful effect in that it reduces the dodge of anyone immobilized by it. Some could say it's a bit of a "borrow" from Musket's dodge debuff, but in fairness, it's only for one turn, and only further strengthens Buccaneers.

If there are any other points you'd like to argue against that I may have missed, please don't hesitate to post them . I always love a good argument.