Suggestions for Balancing the Classes!

AuthorMessage
Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Musketeers are perfect, I cant think of anything they need to survive 1v1 or 4v4 in pvp!

Witchdoctors are also perfect, they have all they need to survive in 1v1 or 4v4 pvp!

SwashBucklers, almost perfect, but I feel that Hide in Shadows/Walk in Darkness are one of the Swashbucklers bread and butter talents! So, my suggestions is this! Since the enemy can see where a hidden opponent is, I feel that hitting a hidden character with an AOE should only get a 50% chance to unhide the swashbuckler.

Buccaneers, severely underpowered in my opinion! So, my suggestions are these:
1. Give Buccaneers relentless, like Swashbucklers were given Riposte.
2. Make the first defensive card -50% to all damage attacks for 5 rounds for self, make the second one -50% to all damage attacks for 10 rounds for self, and make the final one -50% to all damage for 10 rounds to surrounding team members.
3. Either seriously buff up their defenses, or you have to buff up their attacks, make Mighty strike +50% attack, make the second card x2 damage, and make the third card x3 damage. Especially since this class is the only class that does not get any area of effect attacks. The added resistance is nice, but does not make up for all the added damage modifiers of the other classes.

Privateers, rather perfect in team play, but in 1v1, they are not very powerful when attacking.
Their critspiration is their bread and butter and they only get 1 card, although the Valor Armor is quite nice, which does help and the healing, but some type of individual attack cards are needed or some type of epic talent such as BladeStorm, Flanking, Second Chance, these would greatly benefit Privateer in 1v1 combat.

These are just my suggestions to help balance out the classes, some may agree and some may disagree as we all have our own ideas and views, so lets not just say like it or hate it, but actually state why you like something or disagree with something, not just state too overpowered or too much. This can be a give and take suggestion as we are trying to make pvp fun, enjoyable, and viable for all classes.

Community Leader
The changes you list for Buck's I'd like to see in game whether PvP existed or not. They feel a bit underpowered and not exactly working as intended . . . or at least what I assume was the intent.

Host of the Talkin' the Plank Podcast, where we talk about Pirate 101 every Friday!
Ensign
Feb 16, 2010
25
I would have to agree with Darth's assessment of the classes. In addition, part of the imbalance I see is that Musketeers, Witchdoctors and somewhat the Swashbucklers have many more attack cards that hit 100% of the time. Buccaneers and Privateers have very few attack cards and rely heavily on their companions and their slashy/smashy/staffy/shooty (depending on their choice of weapon) attacks. The weapon attacks are subject to accuracy/dodge factors that greatly affect the effectiveness of the attacks. This puts them at a disadvantage in PVP.

Adding epic talents like Riposte and Relentless is a great idea for both these classes. An increase in their accuracy with weapons would help as well. Although with the Privateer especially if a talent such as "adding an attack if you hit" or "adding an attack if the enemy misses" is added to their abilities it needs to function correctly no matter if they are using a ranged weapon or a melee weapon. I don't know if many bucaneers opt for both ranged and melee weapons, but I know many Privateers opt for staffy weapons to increase the range of their heals. So the effect of the epic talent would need to work correctly either way depending on weapon use (working as "relentless" or as "burst fire" ).

I would not suggest changing the 100% accuracy the card attacks to balance this because I think it would cause a tremendous uproar. I think adding greater base accuracy and the epic talents is a better option, and still fair.

Captain
May 02, 2009
525
I totally agree with Darthjt, Buccaneers are underpowered and KI makes them sound super strong (but not as strong as Swashbucklers) and Privateers need epics or the'll rely entriely on their companions.

Lieutenant
Feb 03, 2012
151
I'm a level 50 buccaneer myself, and personally while i would like all these suggestions, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. Something has been bothering my mind for quite some time. If buccaneers are suppose to be the pirate version of ice we really should consider how far we think they need to be updated. As we saw in wizards, the defensive class, ice, was pretty weak compared to the other schools in pvp back during the time of Dagonspyre, and we all know how most of them turned out now. Still your suggestions seem to be balanced so I hope KI takes it into consideration.

Ensign
Oct 27, 2009
38
As a privateer..... I would far rather a moderate buff to heals or the ability to revive companions over an epic talent. I know my pirate can't deal much damage and I'm fine with that as he can take a lot of damage. Adding an epic could compromise that as it could create epic talent chains when I would rather my pirate just take one hit and be done...

There is one portion of the privateer that is potential op...the stacking accuracy and dodge buffs in team. Instead of having each new one count as a new buff could duplicates add to the timer of the first? So if I cast espirit de corps with both my pirate and El Toro it would give one that last 20 turns instead of two that last 10 turns.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Okay, played against the Privateer today! Wow, they are awesome, great at supporting the companions, not too bad at attacking, has plenty of defense and healing. A real threat to any school.

The only one that is struggling against other classes, is the Buccaneer.

The Bucanner can barely win against any school, if they are 6 levels lower than you, then they might have a chance, that, or you are fighting another Buccaneer.

All the other classes seem pretty well balanced, but the Bucs need something, but I will leave KI do decide what, I have given my suggestions in another thread.

can't wait for the new addition of PVP, it's gonna be great!

Ensign
Nov 21, 2010
33
AstroStorm on Dec 9, 2012 wrote:
I'm a level 50 buccaneer myself, and personally while i would like all these suggestions, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. Something has been bothering my mind for quite some time. If buccaneers are suppose to be the pirate version of ice we really should consider how far we think they need to be updated. As we saw in wizards, the defensive class, ice, was pretty weak compared to the other schools in pvp back during the time of Dagonspyre, and we all know how most of them turned out now. Still your suggestions seem to be balanced so I hope KI takes it into consideration.
I agree about what you said about the ice thing, but I hope KI doesnt make anymore changes. Personally my buccaneer and my brothers have tons of health and do a ton of damage without critical hits. You just need to make sure all your gear gives damage and health

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Fluffy Puppy on Dec 12, 2012 wrote:
I agree about what you said about the ice thing, but I hope KI doesnt make anymore changes. Personally my buccaneer and my brothers have tons of health and do a ton of damage without critical hits. You just need to make sure all your gear gives damage and health
Seriously wondering if you have taken your level 50 and went 1v1 vs any other class that is also level 50 in a 1v1 match.

Buc's are outmatched, outgunned, and that wonderful armor, is not resistance and you definitely can not hit like the swashbuckler, who only loses less than 1/2 your armor and hits 3x as hard as you do.

Lieutenant
Feb 03, 2012
151
Darth JT on Dec 13, 2012 wrote:
Seriously wondering if you have taken your level 50 and went 1v1 vs any other class that is also level 50 in a 1v1 match.

Buc's are outmatched, outgunned, and that wonderful armor, is not resistance and you definitely can not hit like the swashbuckler, who only loses less than 1/2 your armor and hits 3x as hard as you do.
Didn't you also use to say it's also about using your skills? While i have gone into a lot of trouble in pvp, my buccaneer has beaten plenty of the other classes at my level, while it wasn't easy and most of them were near luck, it is possible. I do agree I would persoanlly want some new changes just don't make it too drastic.

Developer
I'm looking carefully at the Buccaneer (both the player class and companions).

Petty Officer
Dec 22, 2009
71
Darth JT on Dec 3, 2012 wrote:
Musketeers are perfect, I cant think of anything they need to survive 1v1 or 4v4 in pvp!

Witchdoctors are also perfect, they have all they need to survive in 1v1 or 4v4 pvp!

SwashBucklers, almost perfect, but I feel that Hide in Shadows/Walk in Darkness are one of the Swashbucklers bread and butter talents! So, my suggestions is this! Since the enemy can see where a hidden opponent is, I feel that hitting a hidden character with an AOE should only get a 50% chance to unhide the swashbuckler.

Buccaneers, severely underpowered in my opinion! So, my suggestions are these:
1. Give Buccaneers relentless, like Swashbucklers were given Riposte.
2. Make the first defensive card -50% to all damage attacks for 5 rounds for self, make the second one -50% to all damage attacks for 10 rounds for self, and make the final one -50% to all damage for 10 rounds to surrounding team members.
3. Either seriously buff up their defenses, or you have to buff up their attacks, make Mighty strike +50% attack, make the second card x2 damage, and make the third card x3 damage. Especially since this class is the only class that does not get any area of effect attacks. The added resistance is nice, but does not make up for all the added damage modifiers of the other classes.

Privateers, rather perfect in team play, but in 1v1, they are not very powerful when attacking.
Their critspiration is their bread and butter and they only get 1 card, although the Valor Armor is quite nice, which does help and the healing, but some type of individual attack cards are needed or some type of epic talent such as BladeStorm, Flanking, Second Chance, these would greatly benefit Privateer in 1v1 combat.

These are just my suggestions to help balance out the classes, some may agree and some may disagree as we all have our own ideas and views, so lets not just say like it or hate it, but actually state why you like something or disagree with something, not just state too overpowered or too much. This can be a give and take suggestion as we are trying to make pvp fun, enjoyable, and viable for all classes.
I could not agree more! Seriously I cant.

I was sorely disappointed when I found out how underpowered Buccaneers where in comparison to all other classes. I have seen ALL the other classes, except probably privateers (very similar to buccaneer damage-wise) land damages in the thousands with their native attacks. Buccaneers are described to be the (*BIG HITTERS*) but this is very VERY untrue. At first I was like "I am going to be a buccaneer so I can hit the awesome damages!" boy was I in for a treat. I have never hit over 500 with and native Buc skill.

The mighty strike series is bad, it reduces accuracy so that enemies will not hit you, but that is counterproductive to vengeance strike. Whats with that? And bladestorm level 2 is kinda worthless since we are so weak, there is nothing we could kill and kill again and kill then again in our power range. Only good if we are fighting monsters like 20 levels below.

On the point of gear, gear comes in stat packages, and the most optimal ones are those that add all of your key stats. Buccaneers are for Strength, Life, and Armour. There are NO gear in the stores that add Strength Life and Armour, only premium gears add those. So either you go with Armour or life. The life increments aren't that different anyway. I have seen a Witch Doctor with 2909 life! I cannot graze that kind of life with out loads of crowns.

All in all, there is nothing special about being a buccaneer, the krakens coils series doesnt really work. I have calculated that if you have 70 STR and then use the 3 skills in that series you would theoretically have 262 STR = +52 Damage - This IS NOT the case, i don't even know if the skill are cumulative and I never see a difference. So I discard these cards ever time I see them.

As for the Trtion Songs series, this is good to a degree, i have used all 3 successively to reduce damage from a Kobe level 1 critical strike to: 16 + 32 + 35, when it is normally at that level: 121 - 157 - 212. However, against anything ranged, its worthless. and then swashbucklers have posions so in pvp. that series is again nullified by the neglecting of buccaneers.

Swashbucklers are known for their dodge and damage, my monkey king could land a hit on a grandmaster swashbuckler, he was VERY dodgy. Witchdoctors can ignore armor and use many many different tactics, musketeers have traps which can be used to steer enemies into the direction you need them for strategic strikes, they also have deadly accuracy and range, privateers are very good support units and can make a battle very frustrating for killers with their heals. but what are buccaneers known for??? the easiest to beat in a pvp :( all you need to do is bring a musketeer to bypass the triton song series buffs and we will be dead before we get to hit our small 200 - 300 damages :(

Lieutenant
Feb 03, 2012
151
Ratbeard on Dec 14, 2012 wrote:
I'm looking carefully at the Buccaneer (both the player class and companions).
Thank You.

Developer
So your Buccaneer has identified a problem with the two lowest Strength classes, Witch Doctors and Musketeers, who sit in the back and bypass your defenses?

But you don't have any use for a power like Mighty Strike that doubles your movement and reduces the accuracy of the target?

Lieutenant
Feb 03, 2012
151
Xiriganism on Dec 14, 2012 wrote:
I could not agree more! Seriously I cant.

I was sorely disappointed when I found out how underpowered Buccaneers where in comparison to all other classes. I have seen ALL the other classes, except probably privateers (very similar to buccaneer damage-wise) land damages in the thousands with their native attacks. Buccaneers are described to be the (*BIG HITTERS*) but this is very VERY untrue. At first I was like "I am going to be a buccaneer so I can hit the awesome damages!" boy was I in for a treat. I have never hit over 500 with and native Buc skill.

The mighty strike series is bad, it reduces accuracy so that enemies will not hit you, but that is counterproductive to vengeance strike. Whats with that? And bladestorm level 2 is kinda worthless since we are so weak, there is nothing we could kill and kill again and kill then again in our power range. Only good if we are fighting monsters like 20 levels below.

On the point of gear, gear comes in stat packages, and the most optimal ones are those that add all of your key stats. Buccaneers are for Strength, Life, and Armour. There are NO gear in the stores that add Strength Life and Armour, only premium gears add those. So either you go with Armour or life. The life increments aren't that different anyway. I have seen a Witch Doctor with 2909 life! I cannot graze that kind of life with out loads of crowns.

All in all, there is nothing special about being a buccaneer, the krakens coils series doesnt really work. I have calculated that if you have 70 STR and then use the 3 skills in that series you would theoretically have 262 STR = +52 Damage - This IS NOT the case, i don't even know if the skill are cumulative and I never see a difference. So I discard these cards ever time I see them.

As for the Trtion Songs series, this is good to a degree, i have used all 3 successively to reduce damage from a Kobe level 1 critical strike to: 16 + 32 + 35, when it is normally at that level: 121 - 157 - 212. However, against anything ranged, its worthless. and then swashbucklers have posions so in pvp. that series is again nullified by the neglecting of buccaneers.

Swashbucklers are known for their dodge and damage, my monkey king could land a hit on a grandmaster swashbuckler, he was VERY dodgy. Witchdoctors can ignore armor and use many many different tactics, musketeers have traps which can be used to steer enemies into the direction you need them for strategic strikes, they also have deadly accuracy and range, privateers are very good support units and can make a battle very frustrating for killers with their heals. but what are buccaneers known for??? the easiest to beat in a pvp :( all you need to do is bring a musketeer to bypass the triton song series buffs and we will be dead before we get to hit our small 200 - 300 damages :(
Yeah i was also dissapointed to a degree in their performance in pvp, i joined buccaneers for almost the same reasons, having the biggest baddest heaviest equipment and it amounts to nothing.

Captain
Feb 27, 2009
505
Xiriganism on Dec 14, 2012 wrote:
I could not agree more! Seriously I cant.

I was sorely disappointed when I found out how underpowered Buccaneers where in comparison to all other classes. I have seen ALL the other classes, except probably privateers (very similar to buccaneer damage-wise) land damages in the thousands with their native attacks. Buccaneers are described to be the (*BIG HITTERS*) but this is very VERY untrue. At first I was like "I am going to be a buccaneer so I can hit the awesome damages!" boy was I in for a treat. I have never hit over 500 with and native Buc skill.

The mighty strike series is bad, it reduces accuracy so that enemies will not hit you, but that is counterproductive to vengeance strike. Whats with that? And bladestorm level 2 is kinda worthless since we are so weak, there is nothing we could kill and kill again and kill then again in our power range. Only good if we are fighting monsters like 20 levels below.

On the point of gear, gear comes in stat packages, and the most optimal ones are those that add all of your key stats. Buccaneers are for Strength, Life, and Armour. There are NO gear in the stores that add Strength Life and Armour, only premium gears add those. So either you go with Armour or life. The life increments aren't that different anyway. I have seen a Witch Doctor with 2909 life! I cannot graze that kind of life with out loads of crowns.

All in all, there is nothing special about being a buccaneer, the krakens coils series doesnt really work. I have calculated that if you have 70 STR and then use the 3 skills in that series you would theoretically have 262 STR = +52 Damage - This IS NOT the case, i don't even know if the skill are cumulative and I never see a difference. So I discard these cards ever time I see them.

As for the Trtion Songs series, this is good to a degree, i have used all 3 successively to reduce damage from a Kobe level 1 critical strike to: 16 + 32 + 35, when it is normally at that level: 121 - 157 - 212. However, against anything ranged, its worthless. and then swashbucklers have posions so in pvp. that series is again nullified by the neglecting of buccaneers.

Swashbucklers are known for their dodge and damage, my monkey king could land a hit on a grandmaster swashbuckler, he was VERY dodgy. Witchdoctors can ignore armor and use many many different tactics, musketeers have traps which can be used to steer enemies into the direction you need them for strategic strikes, they also have deadly accuracy and range, privateers are very good support units and can make a battle very frustrating for killers with their heals. but what are buccaneers known for??? the easiest to beat in a pvp :( all you need to do is bring a musketeer to bypass the triton song series buffs and we will be dead before we get to hit our small 200 - 300 damages :(
Hey ya gotta fear me cause I'm a musketeer. You vs me 4:00 P.M Eastern Time so are ya ready to face me or not. We'll meet in realm Vamadia and I hope ya not lvl 50 cause it seems not cause ya said Musketeers kill you so this is a challenge and everybody meet me there to watch me do my epic battle. vs

Bosun
Sep 08, 2008
388
I am not entirely sure Swashbucklers are that good. Maybe good against a witchdoctor, buccaneers and privateers, but probably have some trouble with Musketeers. Musketeers have such a high natural accuracy, the Swashbuckler would not be able to dodge them that easily.

Lieutenant
Jul 09, 2009
149
These changes are understandable, but it might be your battle style. For example I've have a strategy built to be able to not only keep enemies at bay, but to also deal with other musketeers and witchdoctors. Buccaneers seem UP. Anyone with decent armor can handle a buccaneer. Hopefully Ki uses these changes. Cya in the Spar Chamber!

Lucas Walker Sky Commander Musketeer

Community Leader
Ratbeard on Dec 15, 2012 wrote:
So your Buccaneer has identified a problem with the two lowest Strength classes, Witch Doctors and Musketeers, who sit in the back and bypass your defenses?

But you don't have any use for a power like Mighty Strike that doubles your movement and reduces the accuracy of the target?
The ability to transverse the board is great. Reducing accuracy is great. The Mighty Strike series is not a bad one. I think the issue is that we get a few Mighty Strike's, some damage reduction abilities, Str increasing ability, but no other direct attack. Even if I had one or two guaranteed critical strike abilities that I didn't have to gear for, that would help. And that wouldn't be such a big deal if we had a different Epic. Add to that the fact that we are the only class without an area of effect attack (I had hoped to get one where I swing a 2 hander around in a cirlce, hitting all adjacent mobs) , and not even a really good one we can get with Practice Points (I don't think there are any that are boosted by STR, unless the Privateer bombs are STR and not Will) and I just feel like my Buck is not doing all she could.

Now, I would not mind the lack of direct damage if I could just stack defense and let the mobs attack me while my crew did all the damage. In fact, that's kind of what I was hoping would happen. When I created my Buccaneer (before I'd looked at abilities or anything), I imagined later strategies in the game would be to run out into the middle of a mob pack, hit an AoE taunt that would focus them all on my Pirate, and then boost my defenses so I wouldn't take that hard of hits, while my crew did the majority of the damage OR I shield them in some way where I share 50% of damage done to them. As it is, my Buck is the last one standing and then takes 10 min to finish one MooShu mob, because I haven't stacked for accuracy (my accuracy isn't bad, but I seem to hit about 50% of the time) and I'm all out of damage abilities.

I appreciate you taking a look at the class, as I still feel there is a ton of potential. They just aren't there yet, unless I'm missing something glaring.

Host of the Talkin' the Plank Podcast, where we talk about Pirate 101 every Friday!
Petty Officer
Mar 18, 2009
81
Talkin The Plank on Dec 17, 2012 wrote:
The ability to transverse the board is great. Reducing accuracy is great. The Mighty Strike series is not a bad one. I think the issue is that we get a few Mighty Strike's, some damage reduction abilities, Str increasing ability, but no other direct attack. Even if I had one or two guaranteed critical strike abilities that I didn't have to gear for, that would help. And that wouldn't be such a big deal if we had a different Epic. Add to that the fact that we are the only class without an area of effect attack (I had hoped to get one where I swing a 2 hander around in a cirlce, hitting all adjacent mobs) , and not even a really good one we can get with Practice Points (I don't think there are any that are boosted by STR, unless the Privateer bombs are STR and not Will) and I just feel like my Buck is not doing all she could.

Now, I would not mind the lack of direct damage if I could just stack defense and let the mobs attack me while my crew did all the damage. In fact, that's kind of what I was hoping would happen. When I created my Buccaneer (before I'd looked at abilities or anything), I imagined later strategies in the game would be to run out into the middle of a mob pack, hit an AoE taunt that would focus them all on my Pirate, and then boost my defenses so I wouldn't take that hard of hits, while my crew did the majority of the damage OR I shield them in some way where I share 50% of damage done to them. As it is, my Buck is the last one standing and then takes 10 min to finish one MooShu mob, because I haven't stacked for accuracy (my accuracy isn't bad, but I seem to hit about 50% of the time) and I'm all out of damage abilities.

I appreciate you taking a look at the class, as I still feel there is a ton of potential. They just aren't there yet, unless I'm missing something glaring.
I agree, Mighty Strike series is a great weapon, but an AoE seems to be missing from the Bucs arsenal. The single most important thing the Buc should be doing is generating aggro and "tanking" the enemies at the front of battle. Loud is arguably not working. My Buc does not attract enemy attention, no matter what I'm doing or who I'm fighting with.

Bucs have to be noticebly taunting/aggro the opponents to justify the armor/high defense setup. This is currently not happening.

I know other classes are the masters of AoEs, but there should be an active option for Bucs in addition to the passive Vengance talent. It doesn't even have to be a damage AoE. I'd be happy with a "Taunt all nearby opponents" talent that works similiar to Ice abilities in Wizard101.

Captain
May 13, 2011
564
think about companions. buccaneers have heavy armor so they can tank. get some musketeer and witchdoctor companions for the big damage. just so you know, i got a buccaneer myself. gotta admit, 4 33's with vicious strike disappointed me, but it looked good

Ensign
Aug 13, 2009
24
Shiningfantasia on Dec 16, 2012 wrote:
I am not entirely sure Swashbucklers are that good. Maybe good against a witchdoctor, buccaneers and privateers, but probably have some trouble with Musketeers. Musketeers have such a high natural accuracy, the Swashbuckler would not be able to dodge them that easily.
My only issues with Swash have been vs Privateer, honestly. Against any other class I can at least make it close if I lose - most of the time.

Musk/Witch are both squishy enough that I can take them out early and put some damage on their comps with poison. Melee classes like Bucc and other Swash have a tough time against the dodge and riposte. Definitely not saying I win all matches, but it's almost always a fun, competitive fight.

But Privateer is the anti-swash. lol.. My dodge is useless when they can buff accuracy to the moon. They are tankier than Bucc(imo) with all of their heals and decent armor, so I can't drop them fast. They have AoE attacks that can target a blank square, so they can pop me out of hiding no matter how I position myself.

Mostly it's the buffs though, I think. Their comps can hit mine, chain epics, but mine cannot reliably hit theirs. So if I sacrifice myself to take out the privateer, my comps lose quickly. Going after their companions first also seems to be a bad idea, as I die quickly when their ranged comps can string burst fire/mojo echo into my minimal resistance. Trying to run for 10 rounds and wait out their buffs didn't go well for me either.. because when 10 rounds was up, the Privateer just tossed up another dodge/accuracy buff that was even bigger than the initial one. lol

In teams this dynamic multiplies exponentially. Now there are as many as 12 companions I can't dodge, Pirates I can't hit or dodge. I can't think of any answer in team play except to have your own privateer teammate to help offset the buffs.

Anyway, this is one I have been mulling over for a while. It just seems to be a bad matchup for the Swash class, in my experience. On a small Battleboard, I can sometimes take out companions before the Privateer manages to get buffs in their hand, which is a big advantage swing in my favor. On the large boards it's kind of hopeless. I can use Mighty Strike to get there early, but can't quite reach them with it - usually it's a pet sitting out there for me to whack. Then I'm stranded all alone, with my companions 2-3 turns away and 4 units pounding me with all their might. It just never goes well. lol

Gunner's Mate
Apr 26, 2009
270
Ratbeard on Dec 15, 2012 wrote:
So your Buccaneer has identified a problem with the two lowest Strength classes, Witch Doctors and Musketeers, who sit in the back and bypass your defenses?

But you don't have any use for a power like Mighty Strike that doubles your movement and reduces the accuracy of the target?
Shhhh Ratbeard, don't tell them that

Dead-eye Luke, Awesome