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Poison vs Resist

AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Hey this is more of a shout out to anyone who wants to help me experiment. Recently it noticed that my resist wasn't doing anything to reduce poison. Like his base poison damage was 190 for 5 rounds. But...I have loads of resist. Yet for some reason when i moused over myself it still said 190 for 5 rounds (yes am sure he didn't critical.) I am not sure if this was just me or maybe there is something I am not seeing. But it seemed like it didnt work right. I need to run some more tests. For those of you who wanna help me with tests and share your results I would love to hear them.

Petty Officer
May 14, 2011
70
I believe, such as an attack says 500 damage, that does not count in the victims armor. I'm pretty sure poison will be the same, yet your resist will kick in when taking damage. (That is if resist does affect poison)

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 4, 2015 wrote:
Hey this is more of a shout out to anyone who wants to help me experiment. Recently it noticed that my resist wasn't doing anything to reduce poison. Like his base poison damage was 190 for 5 rounds. But...I have loads of resist. Yet for some reason when i moused over myself it still said 190 for 5 rounds (yes am sure he didn't critical.) I am not sure if this was just me or maybe there is something I am not seeing. But it seemed like it didnt work right. I need to run some more tests. For those of you who wanna help me with tests and share your results I would love to hear them.
No, poison is a magical attack but it is based on spooky alone so it does not get reduced by resistance. For example, a musketeers bombs (walking into them) are solely based on spooky damage, not an increase in agility or will. So they do the damage in the description every time, unless it goes critical.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
No, poison is a magical attack but it is based on spooky alone so it does not get reduced by resistance. For example, a musketeers bombs (walking into them) are solely based on spooky damage, not an increase in agility or will. So they do the damage in the description every time, unless it goes critical.
This is wrong. Resistance will protect you from spooky attacks like mojo blast and whatnot, so I don't see why poison should be any different.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 5, 2015 wrote:
This is wrong. Resistance will protect you from spooky attacks like mojo blast and whatnot, so I don't see why poison should be any different.
You kinda missed my point, i said that the damage of poison isn't increased or decreased by agility or will buffs. However, other witch spells like mojo blast and mournsoung are boosted by will buffs. So since those can be boosted to a much larger amount, they can also be resisted. But, poison cannot be boosted unless you directly boost your spooky, so it should not be resisted because it is already a fixed amount of damage.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
You kinda missed my point, i said that the damage of poison isn't increased or decreased by agility or will buffs. However, other witch spells like mojo blast and mournsoung are boosted by will buffs. So since those can be boosted to a much larger amount, they can also be resisted. But, poison cannot be boosted unless you directly boost your spooky, so it should not be resisted because it is already a fixed amount of damage.
You straight up said that "No, poison is a magical attack but it is based on spooky alone so it does not get reduced by resistance". I don't know about that second part though.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ok so its not just me? Can someone from KI pitch in here? Id poison reduced by magic or not? And if not...then this is a HUGE problem! Especially since the scratch buff can give poison very scary results. If it cant be reduced by resist at all cause of some "mojo but not will based" loop hole then this is a major problem. The poor witch who already struggle against melee classes but have high resist to compensate...basically have a that benefit halved. As well as people who consider high resist gear to give them an edge in pvp. Someone in charge who knows whats going on needs to clarify and address this as soon as possible.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
So on a side note...I have an entire thread about the danger over powered nature of poison which i call the REAL problem with swashbucklers. If this poison loop hole is true...then its even more overpowered than I realized! 950 damage that is immune to resist...as well as not removing cloak and stopping healing...thats just insane! And now with the scratch boost? Just...woah!

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 6, 2015 wrote:
You straight up said that "No, poison is a magical attack but it is based on spooky alone so it does not get reduced by resistance". I don't know about that second part though.
Ok, but do you see my point now? It's spooky damage, and it's purely spooky. Mournsong isn't purely spooky, the only directly spooky part about mournsong is the damage over time. Ever notice it always does the same amount, constantly? It's the same with poison. That type of damage can't be resisted.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 7, 2015 wrote:
Ok, but do you see my point now? It's spooky damage, and it's purely spooky. Mournsong isn't purely spooky, the only directly spooky part about mournsong is the damage over time. Ever notice it always does the same amount, constantly? It's the same with poison. That type of damage can't be resisted.
We get your point. In fact THANK YOU for confirming it AND giving us a reason for why it works that way. Talk about a loop hole! So its not effected by agility...yet it can still be directly critical boost with shadow dance? LOOP HOLE!

Knowing this is true is devastating! No wonder poison is so lethal! I purposly gave my pirates "magic resist" gear to try and stop it and all it did was reduce my armor and stop nothing! This and cloak not vanishing when it fails to break absorb are two fixes that can be done without technically even nerfing the powers. (( I still think they should be reduced as I mention on my other thread)) but lets at least start by making them not by pass everyones defenses.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 8, 2015 wrote:
We get your point. In fact THANK YOU for confirming it AND giving us a reason for why it works that way. Talk about a loop hole! So its not effected by agility...yet it can still be directly critical boost with shadow dance? LOOP HOLE!

Knowing this is true is devastating! No wonder poison is so lethal! I purposly gave my pirates "magic resist" gear to try and stop it and all it did was reduce my armor and stop nothing! This and cloak not vanishing when it fails to break absorb are two fixes that can be done without technically even nerfing the powers. (( I still think they should be reduced as I mention on my other thread)) but lets at least start by making them not by pass everyones defenses.
Actually grand shadowdance or shadowdance can't increase the poison critical rate. It's just random. In almost every ranked pvp match you will get a normal poison, a critical poison, and then a poison that misses. For me the normal does 190, critical does 253 or 316, and the miss does 142.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 8, 2015 wrote:
Actually grand shadowdance or shadowdance can't increase the poison critical rate. It's just random. In almost every ranked pvp match you will get a normal poison, a critical poison, and then a poison that misses. For me the normal does 190, critical does 253 or 316, and the miss does 142.
Has this actually been tested?

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Voodoo Cornelius on Oct 8, 2015 wrote:
Has this actually been tested?
Yes, but i'm mainly assuming since criticals are random, and poison isn't an obvious critical and it probably behaves differently than the other game mechanics.
Then again, when i shadowdance or grand shadowdance i don't always end up going critical on an assassin or a heal, so testing with criticals never really works, especially when it's just you and your friend XD.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
Yes, but i'm mainly assuming since criticals are random, and poison isn't an obvious critical and it probably behaves differently than the other game mechanics.
Then again, when i shadowdance or grand shadowdance i don't always end up going critical on an assassin or a heal, so testing with criticals never really works, especially when it's just you and your friend XD.
Someone would have to just sit down and do a bunch of tests, and I doubt many people would want to do that.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 8, 2015 wrote:
Actually grand shadowdance or shadowdance can't increase the poison critical rate. It's just random. In almost every ranked pvp match you will get a normal poison, a critical poison, and then a poison that misses. For me the normal does 190, critical does 253 or 316, and the miss does 142.
Are you saying there is a decent chance poison criticals roughly every 1 out of 3 times regardless of anyone's critical rates? Agility/strength/will and all the rest? Your kidding!?

To any nay sayers on my other thread that said "poison isn't over powered" you need to eat your own words! Not only does it 1) by-pass resist but it 2) criticals frequently regardless of stats, 3) can be boosted by old scratch to do even more insane damage ((friend confirmed poison did 710 for 5 rounds the other day. Was a critical scratch boost)), it 4) doesnt remove the cloak ((allowing them to do by death wizards numbers 710-1580 to 3550 with scratch all while remaining hidden)) thus allowing them to hit ON TOP of the ongoing poison, and 5) one of them stops healing. Yes I know they only have one...but considering how much damage is being done...those 5 rounds frequently end the game.

KI...if your reading this...please. Make it remove the cloak! That is the nerf that I PERSONALLY want. But aside from nerfing it...please make it follow the stat rules, make resist work against it, and make it so scratch cant boost it. You could do those 3 things without even nerfing it! Those are just the EXTRA ways its over powered. Its still way too strong even without those and I think it still needs to be reduced

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Shadowdance buffs critical rate in general which means any power cast. That being said- poison isn't considered a "magical" power-none of swash's moves are. This is why purge wont remove hidden etc and is likely why resist has no effect on poison.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
Are you saying there is a decent chance poison criticals roughly every 1 out of 3 times regardless of anyone's critical rates? Agility/strength/will and all the rest? Your kidding!?

To any nay sayers on my other thread that said "poison isn't over powered" you need to eat your own words! Not only does it 1) by-pass resist but it 2) criticals frequently regardless of stats, 3) can be boosted by old scratch to do even more insane damage ((friend confirmed poison did 710 for 5 rounds the other day. Was a critical scratch boost)), it 4) doesnt remove the cloak ((allowing them to do by death wizards numbers 710-1580 to 3550 with scratch all while remaining hidden)) thus allowing them to hit ON TOP of the ongoing poison, and 5) one of them stops healing. Yes I know they only have one...but considering how much damage is being done...those 5 rounds frequently end the game.

KI...if your reading this...please. Make it remove the cloak! That is the nerf that I PERSONALLY want. But aside from nerfing it...please make it follow the stat rules, make resist work against it, and make it so scratch cant boost it. You could do those 3 things without even nerfing it! Those are just the EXTRA ways its over powered. Its still way too strong even without those and I think it still needs to be reduced
If poison is changed to remove hide I will fight for poison to be able to stack.

Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 9, 2015 wrote:
Are you saying there is a decent chance poison criticals roughly every 1 out of 3 times regardless of anyone's critical rates? Agility/strength/will and all the rest? Your kidding!?

To any nay sayers on my other thread that said "poison isn't over powered" you need to eat your own words! Not only does it 1) by-pass resist but it 2) criticals frequently regardless of stats, 3) can be boosted by old scratch to do even more insane damage ((friend confirmed poison did 710 for 5 rounds the other day. Was a critical scratch boost)), it 4) doesnt remove the cloak ((allowing them to do by death wizards numbers 710-1580 to 3550 with scratch all while remaining hidden)) thus allowing them to hit ON TOP of the ongoing poison, and 5) one of them stops healing. Yes I know they only have one...but considering how much damage is being done...those 5 rounds frequently end the game.

KI...if your reading this...please. Make it remove the cloak! That is the nerf that I PERSONALLY want. But aside from nerfing it...please make it follow the stat rules, make resist work against it, and make it so scratch cant boost it. You could do those 3 things without even nerfing it! Those are just the EXTRA ways its over powered. Its still way too strong even without those and I think it still needs to be reduced
I'm almost certain, at least, in ranked PvP. I've done at least 100 matches and every time i always get a missed poison, then a normal, and a crit. So there seems to be a 33% chance of each happening, roughly.

But, poison is not what needs to be nerfed. It's old scratch. His buffs are too much in my opinion. kingsisle did not think this through, seeing as we can now use valor's armor for 2.5k (on average), and have our poisons do 700 a turn. It's way too much that one companion brings to the table, he should be reverted back to normal.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
DeathWiz101378 on Oct 11, 2015 wrote:
I'm almost certain, at least, in ranked PvP. I've done at least 100 matches and every time i always get a missed poison, then a normal, and a crit. So there seems to be a 33% chance of each happening, roughly.

But, poison is not what needs to be nerfed. It's old scratch. His buffs are too much in my opinion. kingsisle did not think this through, seeing as we can now use valor's armor for 2.5k (on average), and have our poisons do 700 a turn. It's way too much that one companion brings to the table, he should be reverted back to normal.
Wow I am glad to hear your insights as to WHY poison isn't considered magical. But just now they way you phrased something screamed paradox!

How can poison not be considered magical damage AND YET...be boosted by old scratch who's entire focus is to boost mojo for more magic damage? Does anyone else see the paradox here ((I not actually asking "how" this is a retorical statement. You already explained "how" and I thank you)) But seriously?

As for stacking poison..I would rather have that then the 2x damage assassin and bleeding strike follow through that comes after the poison. Hmm but that is assuming they fix the scratch boosting poison thing too. Otherwise it will be 1400 damage a turn for 5 turns ((that is 2 scratch boosted critical poisons on top of each other. Unlikely yes but Im just making a point))

All in all there are SOOOO MANY issues with poison right now its hard to know WHAT should be done first. The bugs need to be fixed first. Then they need to either nerf its damage down...or make it remove cloak.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
Wow I am glad to hear your insights as to WHY poison isn't considered magical. But just now they way you phrased something screamed paradox!

How can poison not be considered magical damage AND YET...be boosted by old scratch who's entire focus is to boost mojo for more magic damage? Does anyone else see the paradox here ((I not actually asking "how" this is a retorical statement. You already explained "how" and I thank you)) But seriously?

As for stacking poison..I would rather have that then the 2x damage assassin and bleeding strike follow through that comes after the poison. Hmm but that is assuming they fix the scratch boosting poison thing too. Otherwise it will be 1400 damage a turn for 5 turns ((that is 2 scratch boosted critical poisons on top of each other. Unlikely yes but Im just making a point))

All in all there are SOOOO MANY issues with poison right now its hard to know WHAT should be done first. The bugs need to be fixed first. Then they need to either nerf its damage down...or make it remove cloak.
Their is no issue with poison-none of it is a bug and most top players consider it a well balanced swash tool. Simply because it is not magical does not mean it should not be boosted by spell power. An easy example is the gunnery line which is not magical in nature, deals physical damage and yet is still boosted by scratch's buffs. Or a musketeer's traps which are not magical, deal magic damage and are also affected by scratch's buffs.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
Their is no issue with poison-none of it is a bug and most top players consider it a well balanced swash tool. Simply because it is not magical does not mean it should not be boosted by spell power. An easy example is the gunnery line which is not magical in nature, deals physical damage and yet is still boosted by scratch's buffs. Or a musketeer's traps which are not magical, deal magic damage and are also affected by scratch's buffs.
Hmm well if you want it to be boosted by the scratch buff then fine. Haha...but you can NOT tell me its is a "well balanced" buckler tool! It is the least balanced thing I have ever seen in this game. But I have said enough on that issue on my other thread and on this one.

Weather it is magical of physical or whatever is fine...as long as something can counteract it. A scratch boosted poison with nothing to stop but but fort...is over powered. Make it physical damage or magic damage...so long as armor or resist affect it like its supposed to...thats what this specific topic thread is about.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 13, 2015 wrote:
Hmm well if you want it to be boosted by the scratch buff then fine. Haha...but you can NOT tell me its is a "well balanced" buckler tool! It is the least balanced thing I have ever seen in this game. But I have said enough on that issue on my other thread and on this one.

Weather it is magical of physical or whatever is fine...as long as something can counteract it. A scratch boosted poison with nothing to stop but but fort...is over powered. Make it physical damage or magic damage...so long as armor or resist affect it like its supposed to...thats what this specific topic thread is about.
I can tell you its a well balanced power as I have already went through in the other threads. Poison already haas limit that does not apply to other powers namely it cannot stack and it is unboosted by any stat increase outside of scratch's. If you want it to be affected by armor and resist fine by me. Give it the ability to be buffed and stacked like other powers then.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 14, 2015 wrote:
I can tell you its a well balanced power as I have already went through in the other threads. Poison already haas limit that does not apply to other powers namely it cannot stack and it is unboosted by any stat increase outside of scratch's. If you want it to be affected by armor and resist fine by me. Give it the ability to be buffed and stacked like other powers then.
You did make points...and the more points you made the less balanced it sounded!

1)It can critical a 1/3 for them time regardless of boosts or class rules like agility (which is positive AND negative. Yes you could critical more often but loads of people have extra agility too. Like muskets for example. So you can't just list it as a negative)
2)It can be cast from the shadows without breaking the cloak allowing for a very lethal one-two combo.
3)It can stop healing.
4)Dispel Magic (not purge) can not remove it...so there is another "loop hole". How can it not count as a magic attack or a normal attack OR a status altering spell? Its like poison some how exists within its own set of rules.
5)Its exempt from resist and armor which is the first "loop hole" we put on here.
6)Scratches boost can pull it through the roof ON TOP of all the other things I have listed. Lol...now...how is this not over powered?

With all that stuff it doesn't need to stack! And as I mentioned above not being boosted is both a positive and negative. And scratches boost is more than enough...the damage is insane.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 15, 2015 wrote:
You did make points...and the more points you made the less balanced it sounded!

1)It can critical a 1/3 for them time regardless of boosts or class rules like agility (which is positive AND negative. Yes you could critical more often but loads of people have extra agility too. Like muskets for example. So you can't just list it as a negative)
2)It can be cast from the shadows without breaking the cloak allowing for a very lethal one-two combo.
3)It can stop healing.
4)Dispel Magic (not purge) can not remove it...so there is another "loop hole". How can it not count as a magic attack or a normal attack OR a status altering spell? Its like poison some how exists within its own set of rules.
5)Its exempt from resist and armor which is the first "loop hole" we put on here.
6)Scratches boost can pull it through the roof ON TOP of all the other things I have listed. Lol...now...how is this not over powered?

With all that stuff it doesn't need to stack! And as I mentioned above not being boosted is both a positive and negative. And scratches boost is more than enough...the damage is insane.
1)That statement is dubious at best as I have never seen this rate of critical.
2)How is that OP?
3)One of it's versions can and only one copy is available to swash's in game
4)It is not a debuff so I would not expect dispel to affect it. Dispel does however remove the heal blocking portion of the spell.
5)It is also exempt from stat buff bonus and stacking-seems fair to me.
6)Scratch's power can boost MANY powers to ridiculous heights.

I agree that as it is currently it does not need to stack. However if the changes you propose are allowed then I fully expect it to be able to stack.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 11, 2015 wrote:
If poison is changed to remove hide I will fight for poison to be able to stack.
I agree with that and I would also propose that poison get a debuff to accuracy or strength.