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Not fun... thanks to black fog

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, once I would just like to mention that it seems like the majority of players at a higher rank seem to swashbucklers. This is just based on my own observations and on other players'. I know you have heard a lot about black fog already, but I hope that you can keep an eye on how things are going in this season so far. If the top rankings are dominated by swashbucklers then it might be an indication that something should change.

I am mostly referring to higher ranked matches. At the start it seemed like there was more variety with different classes involved, but once I (temporarily) hit paragon I faced almost all swashbucklers, and facing black fog is not fun.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, once I would just like to mention that it seems like the majority of players at a higher rank seem to swashbucklers. This is just based on my own observations and on other players'. I know you have heard a lot about black fog already, but I hope that you can keep an eye on how things are going in this season so far. If the top rankings are dominated by swashbucklers then it might be an indication that something should change.

I am mostly referring to higher ranked matches. At the start it seemed like there was more variety with different classes involved, but once I (temporarily) hit paragon I faced almost all swashbucklers, and facing black fog is not fun.
If you look at all the posts concerning Black Fog, then you'll know all the arguments and counter-arguments to this post; why rehash it again?
"...if I don't get a certain card at the start, I have no chance."
The same thing is true for swashbucklers. If our Black Fog doesn't show when we need it, we're exposed to massive attacks from everyone ( and our health and armor is nothing in comparison to other classes. )

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Like I said, not trying to start the argument again, but I hope that if the results at the end of the season show that swashbucklers occupy the vast majority of the upper ranks, then it may be an indication that something is wrong. But of course there is still more time in the season, so things can change.

Developer
Ensign
Mar 04, 2010
27
I hope they Nerf NOTHING. I posted somewhere else about this but just a quick summation.

I use PVP to learn how to use strategy, tactics, and my powers. I work with different companions to see which gives me what I want in different situations and overall effectiveness in any situation.

I lose - I lose almost everytme. I have won twice. Were the other players afk or asleep or just new. I dunno. My tactics are getting better, coordination of my powers is getting better, and I know which companions are weak in some cases and which are strong overall.

I dont know what the next world will have (hint can we get a new world) but I want to be ready for it. I dont want to struggle and muddle along. What if the next world has bosses that use FOG? Or Levi? They are not gonna nerf them because players think its is too hard.

For the record. I do not like PVP. I do go to the Royale. Why? I consider it Pirate boot camp. No AI created yet will be as inventive, as creative, or as unpredictable as that human opponent that is trying to mash me into the ground. I watch what they do. I watch how they do it. Movement of their companions. Spells chosen and at what point. I watch, I learn, I grow better in my own skills trying to counter them.

I want the Summer Champion Staff really really bad. I doubt I will get it. But I will receive a better understanding of my pirate, his skills and powers and of my companions and pets. So I will keep going back again and again.

If it works and Ratbeard says its good enough to be in PVP then bring it into PVP. He plays, he knows what PVP is about. You get beat because of someeone elses skill or powers? Or do you get beat because they know their powers, talents and skill better. And they are better at tactics and strategy.

In my opinion ignorance it the greatest opponent you face in pvp. KI has given you a method to nerf it - play to win, whether you win or lose. Learn from each loss, Learn from each win. I do. See you in the rumble :)

Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
I agree with Quentin. Whether it's the sheer number of hides or the "too many" Assassin Strikes, Bucklers are simply everywhere in ranked PVP.

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Like I said, not trying to start the argument again, but I hope that if the results at the end of the season show that swashbucklers occupy the vast majority of the upper ranks, then it may be an indication that something is wrong. But of course there is still more time in the season, so things can change.
Like I said, not trying to start the argument again, but I hope that if the results at the end of the season show that swashbucklers occupy the vast majority of the upper ranks, then it may be an indication that something is wrong. But of course there is still more time in the season, so things can change.

It would be a strong indication that something is wrong-- I don't think it's a lock, since it's somewhat self-selecting: there's still a perception that Black Fog is uber, so the top players, who care the most about rank, are going to assess that it's easier to play Swashbucklers than to spend time figuring out counters.

Tweaking between seasons is exactly how it should be addressed. Quite frankly it takes time to figure out the meta, especially as so much has changed. I'm just speaking for myself, but figuring it all out anew (possibly even after each season) is a BIG part of the fun. We've been live for... a week?

You should also notice from this last go-around that it's preferable to add more things for everybody than to take things away. That means that for every potential "problem," everybody may be looking at some new toys.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6204
crowmagus on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I hope they Nerf NOTHING. I posted somewhere else about this but just a quick summation.

I use PVP to learn how to use strategy, tactics, and my powers. I work with different companions to see which gives me what I want in different situations and overall effectiveness in any situation.

I lose - I lose almost everytme. I have won twice. Were the other players afk or asleep or just new. I dunno. My tactics are getting better, coordination of my powers is getting better, and I know which companions are weak in some cases and which are strong overall.

I dont know what the next world will have (hint can we get a new world) but I want to be ready for it. I dont want to struggle and muddle along. What if the next world has bosses that use FOG? Or Levi? They are not gonna nerf them because players think its is too hard.

For the record. I do not like PVP. I do go to the Royale. Why? I consider it Pirate boot camp. No AI created yet will be as inventive, as creative, or as unpredictable as that human opponent that is trying to mash me into the ground. I watch what they do. I watch how they do it. Movement of their companions. Spells chosen and at what point. I watch, I learn, I grow better in my own skills trying to counter them.

I want the Summer Champion Staff really really bad. I doubt I will get it. But I will receive a better understanding of my pirate, his skills and powers and of my companions and pets. So I will keep going back again and again.

If it works and Ratbeard says its good enough to be in PVP then bring it into PVP. He plays, he knows what PVP is about. You get beat because of someeone elses skill or powers? Or do you get beat because they know their powers, talents and skill better. And they are better at tactics and strategy.

In my opinion ignorance it the greatest opponent you face in pvp. KI has given you a method to nerf it - play to win, whether you win or lose. Learn from each loss, Learn from each win. I do. See you in the rumble :)
Really well written Crowmagus. I simply adore your quote "No AI created yet will be as inventive, as creative or as unpredictable as that human opponent that is trying to mash me into the ground"

I truly think it should be put on a banner and hung in every PvP arena in the game.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
crowmagus on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I hope they Nerf NOTHING. I posted somewhere else about this but just a quick summation.

I use PVP to learn how to use strategy, tactics, and my powers. I work with different companions to see which gives me what I want in different situations and overall effectiveness in any situation.

I lose - I lose almost everytme. I have won twice. Were the other players afk or asleep or just new. I dunno. My tactics are getting better, coordination of my powers is getting better, and I know which companions are weak in some cases and which are strong overall.

I dont know what the next world will have (hint can we get a new world) but I want to be ready for it. I dont want to struggle and muddle along. What if the next world has bosses that use FOG? Or Levi? They are not gonna nerf them because players think its is too hard.

For the record. I do not like PVP. I do go to the Royale. Why? I consider it Pirate boot camp. No AI created yet will be as inventive, as creative, or as unpredictable as that human opponent that is trying to mash me into the ground. I watch what they do. I watch how they do it. Movement of their companions. Spells chosen and at what point. I watch, I learn, I grow better in my own skills trying to counter them.

I want the Summer Champion Staff really really bad. I doubt I will get it. But I will receive a better understanding of my pirate, his skills and powers and of my companions and pets. So I will keep going back again and again.

If it works and Ratbeard says its good enough to be in PVP then bring it into PVP. He plays, he knows what PVP is about. You get beat because of someeone elses skill or powers? Or do you get beat because they know their powers, talents and skill better. And they are better at tactics and strategy.

In my opinion ignorance it the greatest opponent you face in pvp. KI has given you a method to nerf it - play to win, whether you win or lose. Learn from each loss, Learn from each win. I do. See you in the rumble :)
This deserves to be printed, framed and nailed to all walls of anyone complaining about any power! Yar infinity!

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
Aquilus99 on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I agree with Quentin. Whether it's the sheer number of hides or the "too many" Assassin Strikes, Bucklers are simply everywhere in ranked PVP.
A certain situation occurred to me in a Battle Royale. My main is a swashbuckler, I was facing one of those swashbucklers who loaded his character with hides and strikes, I just have a normal amount of hides and strikes; yet I beat him. How? Dodge is my friend. Yeah, I know you're going to say "But you can't dodge an epic!" "Aha!" I chortle, "But I can dodge ( almost ) all talent attacks. So while he was standing there all bobble-headed, I preceded to hide, heal and go after the witchdoctor, who then Mojo Reavered me to oblivion!
Those 'extra' hides and strikes are available to anyone in the Tower of Moo Manchu, if you want/need hides go there.

Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
anecorbie on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
A certain situation occurred to me in a Battle Royale. My main is a swashbuckler, I was facing one of those swashbucklers who loaded his character with hides and strikes, I just have a normal amount of hides and strikes; yet I beat him. How? Dodge is my friend. Yeah, I know you're going to say "But you can't dodge an epic!" "Aha!" I chortle, "But I can dodge ( almost ) all talent attacks. So while he was standing there all bobble-headed, I preceded to hide, heal and go after the witchdoctor, who then Mojo Reavered me to oblivion!
Those 'extra' hides and strikes are available to anyone in the Tower of Moo Manchu, if you want/need hides go there.
While the tower does provide extra hides, because the powers are on Hats, Coats, and Boots rather than Accessories, the Walk in Darknesses take up valuable armor positions of other necessary Cards (e.g. Assassin Strikes, Valor's) and stats (i.e. Will, Agility, Strength). Swashbucklers, on the other hand, can receive Assassin's and Hides from the same armor pieces, while maintaining high agility.
Haha, and I've definitely seen your 200 Dodge. It isn't something to mess with :P

Lieutenant
Oct 11, 2012
108
Just because you have a power doesn't mean you will win. It is how effectively you use that power that makes you win. EVERY move you make has an effect on the outcome of the battle. Great post Crowmagus, I wholeheartedly agree. The point of this game is to have fun, not to focus on how many wins or losses you have.

I am not sure if I am the only one, but I seem to be losing to a lot of Buccaneers lately (I was on my swash). Even with my BF and Assasin's Strikes, their chain of attacks seem to shut me down completely. Why? Because I simply couldn't overcome their shields. BF isn't invincible, and it's not an automatic win.

I disagree that Swashies are at the top right now. IMO, no class is at the top, the game is perfectly balanced. I have lost and won to every class now in ranked PvP. The ones I lost to were the ones who used their powers effectively. Analyzing and observing what is going on is a very important skill in PvP. There is no greater reward than to learn from your losses. That is the only way to truly improve at something you want to be better at. How would anyone be good at a game if there was no losing? It's kind of like the saying "There cannot be light without dark". There is no consistent strategy for any class.

"Know the weakness and exploit it" - Anecorbie

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
826
anecorbie on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
A certain situation occurred to me in a Battle Royale. My main is a swashbuckler, I was facing one of those swashbucklers who loaded his character with hides and strikes, I just have a normal amount of hides and strikes; yet I beat him. How? Dodge is my friend. Yeah, I know you're going to say "But you can't dodge an epic!" "Aha!" I chortle, "But I can dodge ( almost ) all talent attacks. So while he was standing there all bobble-headed, I preceded to hide, heal and go after the witchdoctor, who then Mojo Reavered me to oblivion!
Those 'extra' hides and strikes are available to anyone in the Tower of Moo Manchu, if you want/need hides go there.
if that buckler didnt have any forts im not surprised he didnt win, a swashy without forts is a joke even with fog, id actually rather face 2 bucklers without forts then one with

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
zuto4011a on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
if that buckler didnt have any forts im not surprised he didnt win, a swashy without forts is a joke even with fog, id actually rather face 2 bucklers without forts then one with
It was the witchdoctor who had the fort, that's why I couldn't obliterate him. and speaking of difficult classes, Musketeers have turned into my personal nightmare, lol. I will find a way past those bombs!

Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
ElijahWaterVault on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Just because you have a power doesn't mean you will win. It is how effectively you use that power that makes you win. EVERY move you make has an effect on the outcome of the battle. Great post Crowmagus, I wholeheartedly agree. The point of this game is to have fun, not to focus on how many wins or losses you have.

I am not sure if I am the only one, but I seem to be losing to a lot of Buccaneers lately (I was on my swash). Even with my BF and Assasin's Strikes, their chain of attacks seem to shut me down completely. Why? Because I simply couldn't overcome their shields. BF isn't invincible, and it's not an automatic win.

I disagree that Swashies are at the top right now. IMO, no class is at the top, the game is perfectly balanced. I have lost and won to every class now in ranked PvP. The ones I lost to were the ones who used their powers effectively. Analyzing and observing what is going on is a very important skill in PvP. There is no greater reward than to learn from your losses. That is the only way to truly improve at something you want to be better at. How would anyone be good at a game if there was no losing? It's kind of like the saying "There cannot be light without dark". There is no consistent strategy for any class.

"Know the weakness and exploit it" - Anecorbie
Swashbucklers need the correct gear too. What the community is arguing is that Swashbucklers with the correct gear are WAY too good compared to other classes. Currently, there isn't a fair balance, and Swashbucklers are EVERYWHERE. We will just have to wait till the end of the season for Ratbeard to make some proper adjustments.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
zuto4011a on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
if that buckler didnt have any forts im not surprised he didnt win, a swashy without forts is a joke even with fog, id actually rather face 2 bucklers without forts then one with
Gee i must be the biggest joke out there. Swash w/o fort(by choice) at your service.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
Aquilus99 on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
Swashbucklers need the correct gear too. What the community is arguing is that Swashbucklers with the correct gear are WAY too good compared to other classes. Currently, there isn't a fair balance, and Swashbucklers are EVERYWHERE. We will just have to wait till the end of the season for Ratbeard to make some proper adjustments.
Swashbucklers are not "everywhere" Both yesterday and today ( so far ) I haven't competed against a single swashy. Musketeers, witchdoctors and plenty of buccaneers. Maybe at the higher ranks there are more SB but at my rank ( warrior ) I haven't seen any. ( And I haven't seen any Privateers, either ).

Ensign
Mar 04, 2010
27
Chrissy Th'Blesser on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Really well written Crowmagus. I simply adore your quote "No AI created yet will be as inventive, as creative or as unpredictable as that human opponent that is trying to mash me into the ground"

I truly think it should be put on a banner and hung in every PvP arena in the game.
Thanks for the kind words. It is not a quote I used however, well I didn't refer to one, it is how I perceived the situation. I do a lot of farming always looking for the item that someone else has missed, an improvement or an edge to help in battle. The AI in dungeons is for the most part predictable. But all of you mashing me into the ground - oh my your so creative - so inventive. I see new applications of powers and talents defeat me everyday. I want nothing to change as far as nerfing. Keep mashing me people - I am learning and at some point the student will become the Master. I will become the masher instead of the Mashee. :)

And to Ratbeard

Sorry I dont know (yet) how to do double quotes. Love your idea. Look at the results, view the stats and rather than nerf, balance the field by adding. I like it because it will display the rank and file of strongest to weakest class of pirate. And new toys

Ensign
Jul 15, 2015
2
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, once I would just like to mention that it seems like the majority of players at a higher rank seem to swashbucklers. This is just based on my own observations and on other players'. I know you have heard a lot about black fog already, but I hope that you can keep an eye on how things are going in this season so far. If the top rankings are dominated by swashbucklers then it might be an indication that something should change.

I am mostly referring to higher ranked matches. At the start it seemed like there was more variety with different classes involved, but once I (temporarily) hit paragon I faced almost all swashbucklers, and facing black fog is not fun.
not to be rude but cant you get get the power too?

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
icestar729 on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
not to be rude but cant you get get the power too?
No, only swashbucklers can have Black Fog

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
Lets get started shall we.

I'm going to talk about the main argument against Black Fog us PvPer's have. There is no consistent counter... Now of course this has changed for classes like Buck who have Veng 3 on everyone now so we can just stun those babies if they try to hit us, Muskets can always go melee and just use Hide then Fort there most important companion then 2v4 the entire team because vs the Pirate they will never miss even when there enemy is in elusive so we don't have to worry about that. Swashbucklers obviously have there own Black Fog PLUS there LITERALLY IMMUNE to melee hidden attacks so Buckler vs Buckler you only really use Fog to destroy the other teams companions...

Now you may think 'oh whats the problem with fog now then' and honestly I would say nothing if you were 1/3 classes I just noted BUT lets get talking about Privy's and Witchdoctors.... Obviously Moo Robe+Staff is a great way to go on these guys and does consistently beat opponents but its almost always a lost when you fight a Buckler. Also we can obviously tell Ratbeard is willing to change some functions to the Moo Robe for pvp because its obviously a very strong robe which needs to have a tiny tune back/changes to the AI/Mechanics.... NOW HOPEFULLY the change to the Pet AI Ratbeard said was on the fix list will make it so Scent 3 Pets can become an option as when the enemy goes hidden the pet will stay near the Pirate this time around.... But 2 problems there... 1. Pets are randomly spawning making them a dice roll counter not a consistent strategical way to increase your chance of success in countering the robe... 2. What if the enemy pet spawns and your pets AI triggers to rush it boom there goes your pet counter... Again....

So I feel like maybe something more needs to be added to help Witch and Privy who are already the lowest tier classes naturally....

Lieutenant
Nov 26, 2010
161
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
Gee i must be the biggest joke out there. Swash w/o fort(by choice) at your service.
But the problem is you're good unlike the others ;D

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
826
anecorbie on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
Swashbucklers are not "everywhere" Both yesterday and today ( so far ) I haven't competed against a single swashy. Musketeers, witchdoctors and plenty of buccaneers. Maybe at the higher ranks there are more SB but at my rank ( warrior ) I haven't seen any. ( And I haven't seen any Privateers, either ).
very few privateers make it high in ranked, i havent done much ranked(i'm only 269 rating) but i havent met another privateer at all in ranked

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9321
TechnomagePvP on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
Lets get started shall we.

I'm going to talk about the main argument against Black Fog us PvPer's have. There is no consistent counter... Now of course this has changed for classes like Buck who have Veng 3 on everyone now so we can just stun those babies if they try to hit us, Muskets can always go melee and just use Hide then Fort there most important companion then 2v4 the entire team because vs the Pirate they will never miss even when there enemy is in elusive so we don't have to worry about that. Swashbucklers obviously have there own Black Fog PLUS there LITERALLY IMMUNE to melee hidden attacks so Buckler vs Buckler you only really use Fog to destroy the other teams companions...

Now you may think 'oh whats the problem with fog now then' and honestly I would say nothing if you were 1/3 classes I just noted BUT lets get talking about Privy's and Witchdoctors.... Obviously Moo Robe+Staff is a great way to go on these guys and does consistently beat opponents but its almost always a lost when you fight a Buckler. Also we can obviously tell Ratbeard is willing to change some functions to the Moo Robe for pvp because its obviously a very strong robe which needs to have a tiny tune back/changes to the AI/Mechanics.... NOW HOPEFULLY the change to the Pet AI Ratbeard said was on the fix list will make it so Scent 3 Pets can become an option as when the enemy goes hidden the pet will stay near the Pirate this time around.... But 2 problems there... 1. Pets are randomly spawning making them a dice roll counter not a consistent strategical way to increase your chance of success in countering the robe... 2. What if the enemy pet spawns and your pets AI triggers to rush it boom there goes your pet counter... Again....

So I feel like maybe something more needs to be added to help Witch and Privy who are already the lowest tier classes naturally....
First Strike3 has exposed me more than a few times in a PVP ( I'm getting annoyed with it ).

Developer
TechnomagePvP on Aug 11, 2015 wrote:
Lets get started shall we.

I'm going to talk about the main argument against Black Fog us PvPer's have. There is no consistent counter... Now of course this has changed for classes like Buck who have Veng 3 on everyone now so we can just stun those babies if they try to hit us, Muskets can always go melee and just use Hide then Fort there most important companion then 2v4 the entire team because vs the Pirate they will never miss even when there enemy is in elusive so we don't have to worry about that. Swashbucklers obviously have there own Black Fog PLUS there LITERALLY IMMUNE to melee hidden attacks so Buckler vs Buckler you only really use Fog to destroy the other teams companions...

Now you may think 'oh whats the problem with fog now then' and honestly I would say nothing if you were 1/3 classes I just noted BUT lets get talking about Privy's and Witchdoctors.... Obviously Moo Robe+Staff is a great way to go on these guys and does consistently beat opponents but its almost always a lost when you fight a Buckler. Also we can obviously tell Ratbeard is willing to change some functions to the Moo Robe for pvp because its obviously a very strong robe which needs to have a tiny tune back/changes to the AI/Mechanics.... NOW HOPEFULLY the change to the Pet AI Ratbeard said was on the fix list will make it so Scent 3 Pets can become an option as when the enemy goes hidden the pet will stay near the Pirate this time around.... But 2 problems there... 1. Pets are randomly spawning making them a dice roll counter not a consistent strategical way to increase your chance of success in countering the robe... 2. What if the enemy pet spawns and your pets AI triggers to rush it boom there goes your pet counter... Again....

So I feel like maybe something more needs to be added to help Witch and Privy who are already the lowest tier classes naturally....
I agree that Witch and Privy need help and I have a huge (really fun) list of stuff to bring to them.

As for Black Fog (broken record time) there is not a direct counter for it.

As in, "You do hide? Ok, I just do this simple thing and unhide you."

Countering the swashbuckler's specific, intended class design requires planning in advance, it requires sacrifice, it requires successful execution, and it sometimes requires the luck of the draw. If you're looking for "consistency" that would in any way obviate those requirements, you're on the wrong track.

Every class needs to be able to come back from 3-vs-4. Somebody has to lose the first guy. So figure out which guy you are willing to sacrifice to the swashbuckler, and then punish him for the trade.

There's a reason we use a chess piece to represent your companions.