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For those that think BoD shouldn't be nerfed

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AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
So, my brother and I were watching a privy vs swashbuckler pvp video on YouTube and the privy went first so the first thing the privy did was Blast of Discord (obvious first choice) and it ended up killing his pirate.


His pirate. Dead first round. Didn't even get to choose a move.

What exactly is the skill in that?

Lvl 70
Lvl 56

Ensign
Jun 22, 2010
14
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Tried posting the video up here but couldn't I was the privy in that video and no I pick my gear with powers in mind first Then stats
here's the post on central if you want to see
http://www.pirate101central.com/forums/showthread.php?59440-Proof-Discord-Needs-to-be-FIXED&p=293919#post293919

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Sandy Witch on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?
In pvp, pieces of gear that give powers are almost an absolute necessity. Without key powers like shields and heals in a "no mercy" competitive setting, I'd go as far to say that it's impossible to rank past Hero (which is a stretch in itself).

I too have seen this particular match (the privateer being a friend of mine), and if you take the time to look at the extremes of this power on both ends, you'll find that the difference between the two is barely no damage at all vs a defeated pirate. What makes this THAT much more completely broken is that, while some other "game changing" powers can shut down matches in a similar swift and destructive manner, Blast of Discord can do this on ROUND ONE! Sure, black fog is another deadly power when used to it's fullest, but the fact that you don't even have to move a single square for BoD to do it's worst is beyond absurd.

There is absolutely NO chance at all for comeback when your pirate is defeated before you can even SEE your powers. No power in the game should have the mere POTENTIAL to be able decide the outcome of an entire match turn ONE.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
Sandy Witch on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?
Sandy Witch ( cool name! ) Blast of Discord is the newest power a level 70 Privateer trains. It can completely destroy the captain, or completely miss - its a devastating power when it works. There is no skill in it, just luck.

Bosun
Dec 28, 2012
330
Was this before the change Ratbeard made, or after.

Lieutenant
Aug 17, 2014
122
was the privateer that used discord, was his name sly wolf everhart?

Black Ryan Randall

Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
Sandy Witch on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?
Of course they were, it is pvp, that was not the point, who chooses gear based on stats in pirates anyway? The point was his own companions did enough damage to kill him first round on a blast of discord from his opponent. Does this seem fair to you?

Lieutenant
Aug 17, 2014
122
I am the victim of discord in the video, and I think in needs to be banned ASAP, it is way to OP, and has lost me so many matches.

Black Ryan Randall

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
Sandy Witch on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?
First of all which pirate? Second of all, why would that even matter for either of them?

Ensign
Jun 22, 2010
14
I get it, I'm just saying maybe gear with high dodge rating and spec'ing companions with more dodge is the new meta to deal with Blast of Discord. *shrug* Sorry if that seems crazy.

Doesn't dodge cancel BoD?

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Sandy Witch on Jul 9, 2016 wrote:
I get it, I'm just saying maybe gear with high dodge rating and spec'ing companions with more dodge is the new meta to deal with Blast of Discord. *shrug* Sorry if that seems crazy.

Doesn't dodge cancel BoD?
No Blast of whatever DOESN'T factor in dodge, I know this as I often bring buckler team and they will still hit you at elusive.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
As many know, my dodge is extreme ( 210-220 depending on what I have equipped ) when this was used on me, I DIDN'T DODGE ONCE! And I know my dodge is better than my companions accuracy.
Did Ratbeard make any changes?

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Alex the Pirate on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
Was this before the change Ratbeard made, or after.
Match was a few days ago it was after the change

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
rex1556 on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
was the privateer that used discord, was his name sly wolf everhart?

Black Ryan Randall
Yes, it was, he replied to this thread, his name is "Sunny Wolf" on here

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
Sandy Witch on Jul 8, 2016 wrote:
I haven't seen the video, but maybe that pirate was choosing gear based on cards instead of stats?
Even if he was wearing gear with health, the privy could've killed him with big guns. For the swashbuckler's turn, he would have to either black fog, shield or heal. Considering he would be wearing health gear instead of gear with powers, he would most likely not draw a shield or a heal, leaving him to fog and die to a big bombs anyway.

Ensign
Jun 22, 2010
14
How boosted are the companions' accuracy ratings? Has anyone tried to see if adjusting a few things has any effect . . . run a few tests?

I kind of find it hard to believe this power was put into the game with no counter.

What we do know is that the power does take into consideration players' attacking state from this thread: ""The stunned condition prevents you from attacking."

We also know this: "BoD does not change the basic accuracy of any unit. It uses the same calculation as all other attacks: base of 75, then factor in accuracy and dodge"

We also know this: "If I can find a way to lessen the "first turn" impact without nerfing the utility of this power as a timely response to summons, I'll do so." -- so the power is already being looked at by the dev anyway.

That said, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think we should be looking for a sweet spot when spec'ing companions accuracy and dodge and taking a look at our own gear and strategies until that possible change happens, and if we have proof that accuracy and dodge have no effect on the power, then the dev has even more justification to change it. And IMHO, the video doesn't prove anything except for that rex's own accuracy beat his own dodge given the statement from Ratbeard.

Who knows, maybe it isn't gear...maybe taking one token companion with awesome powers into the fight coupled with less accuracy outside of those powers is the answer. *shrug*. Heck, Nausica has enough powers that me self-nerfing her accuracy a touch might not be out of the question.

2 cents. I'll slip back into the shadows now. *salute*

Developer
Quite Jacques on Jul 9, 2016 wrote:
No Blast of whatever DOESN'T factor in dodge, I know this as I often bring buckler team and they will still hit you at elusive.
That's incorrect, as I have stated previously.

BoD uses the same attack calculations as every other attack. Base 75%, then factor accuracy and dodge.

Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Ratbeard on Jul 10, 2016 wrote:
That's incorrect, as I have stated previously.

BoD uses the same attack calculations as every other attack. Base 75%, then factor accuracy and dodge.
I beg to differ. I can easily prove my statement correct. Elusive 3 makes no difference on allies with MUCH lower accuracy then your own dodge, and even when I bring teams with bucklers with maximum dodge investment they STILL kill each other, and considering 133 accuracy/154 dodge AND the 75% you yourself stated they should be hitting each other approximately 65% of the time. Now onto my dodge with ELUSIVE factored, Privateer's base dodge at max 115 + dodgy grant which I always carry, 133 accuracy to my 180 dodge, they should be hitting approximately 55% of the time an extra 27% boost with criticals factored in, yet even without criticals I RARELY see them miss, please look into this. I'm not even going to start on the many many buckler death by discord incidents.
If you are responding can you also answer me another question? I've noticed that criticals still occur even when they are reduced and you have a zeal on, I know 100% that criticals simply calculate if it's a critical or not then hit regardless of accuracy/dodge ratio. Is it intended for criticals to not involve accuracy? I can guarantee this as most of my matches vs. buccaneer (On my privateer with Elusive 3) involve me reducing them, WITHOUT bladestorm interrupting the debuff, and long chains of criticals being scored and of course bladestorm 3's hitting due to there accuracy formula using strength instead of accuracy.

Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
Sandy Witch on Jul 10, 2016 wrote:
How boosted are the companions' accuracy ratings? Has anyone tried to see if adjusting a few things has any effect . . . run a few tests?

I kind of find it hard to believe this power was put into the game with no counter.

What we do know is that the power does take into consideration players' attacking state from this thread: ""The stunned condition prevents you from attacking."

We also know this: "BoD does not change the basic accuracy of any unit. It uses the same calculation as all other attacks: base of 75, then factor in accuracy and dodge"

We also know this: "If I can find a way to lessen the "first turn" impact without nerfing the utility of this power as a timely response to summons, I'll do so." -- so the power is already being looked at by the dev anyway.

That said, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think we should be looking for a sweet spot when spec'ing companions accuracy and dodge and taking a look at our own gear and strategies until that possible change happens, and if we have proof that accuracy and dodge have no effect on the power, then the dev has even more justification to change it. And IMHO, the video doesn't prove anything except for that rex's own accuracy beat his own dodge given the statement from Ratbeard.

Who knows, maybe it isn't gear...maybe taking one token companion with awesome powers into the fight coupled with less accuracy outside of those powers is the answer. *shrug*. Heck, Nausica has enough powers that me self-nerfing her accuracy a touch might not be out of the question.

2 cents. I'll slip back into the shadows now. *salute*
It is actually pretty random, I use the same companions with same specs in every pvp match i have done. Most times BoD does very minimal damage, but i had one time when i got down to 307 health on first turn which is pretty difficult to recover from.

I do not think nerfing your companions or changing your gear is really the answer here. Now I just pretty much hold my breath until its over.

Have you been in any ranked matches where this was used on you btw?

Developer
Sandy Witch on Jul 10, 2016 wrote:
How boosted are the companions' accuracy ratings? Has anyone tried to see if adjusting a few things has any effect . . . run a few tests?

I kind of find it hard to believe this power was put into the game with no counter.

What we do know is that the power does take into consideration players' attacking state from this thread: ""The stunned condition prevents you from attacking."

We also know this: "BoD does not change the basic accuracy of any unit. It uses the same calculation as all other attacks: base of 75, then factor in accuracy and dodge"

We also know this: "If I can find a way to lessen the "first turn" impact without nerfing the utility of this power as a timely response to summons, I'll do so." -- so the power is already being looked at by the dev anyway.

That said, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think we should be looking for a sweet spot when spec'ing companions accuracy and dodge and taking a look at our own gear and strategies until that possible change happens, and if we have proof that accuracy and dodge have no effect on the power, then the dev has even more justification to change it. And IMHO, the video doesn't prove anything except for that rex's own accuracy beat his own dodge given the statement from Ratbeard.

Who knows, maybe it isn't gear...maybe taking one token companion with awesome powers into the fight coupled with less accuracy outside of those powers is the answer. *shrug*. Heck, Nausica has enough powers that me self-nerfing her accuracy a touch might not be out of the question.

2 cents. I'll slip back into the shadows now. *salute*
Aye, I've been on vacation for a week but I'll be back at it tomorrow.

I've already got one trial version that doesn't allow the units to target the player (crew only fights crew, in other words) and while I know that will "work" I don't know if it's the fix I want (or you all want).

Chipping away at the 1st turn issue is a little more tricky and time-consuming.

Suffice to say I agree with you that a power this swingy is not fun (Wild Bolt? Ugh!) and I'm also not a fan of matches that end before you've had a chance to act.

What is surprising to me is how often the bad penny seems to be turning up (anecdotally, of course), and what is unknown to me is whether there's some other issue in your typical PvP strategy that is making it more dangerous than it should be (for example, one obvious thought: Is it typical for you Pirates to be glass cannons who can easily get whacked by your own glass cannon crew? I don't have much sympathy for that.)

But I can definitively say the power won't be banned, in PvP or otherwise, and if it ends up nerfed on turn 1 or otherwise provided with an easy "counter", then you should expect to see it strengthened in other ways.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Sandy Witch on Jul 10, 2016 wrote:
How boosted are the companions' accuracy ratings? Has anyone tried to see if adjusting a few things has any effect . . . run a few tests?

I kind of find it hard to believe this power was put into the game with no counter.

What we do know is that the power does take into consideration players' attacking state from this thread: ""The stunned condition prevents you from attacking."

We also know this: "BoD does not change the basic accuracy of any unit. It uses the same calculation as all other attacks: base of 75, then factor in accuracy and dodge"

We also know this: "If I can find a way to lessen the "first turn" impact without nerfing the utility of this power as a timely response to summons, I'll do so." -- so the power is already being looked at by the dev anyway.

That said, I don't think it's too far-fetched to think we should be looking for a sweet spot when spec'ing companions accuracy and dodge and taking a look at our own gear and strategies until that possible change happens, and if we have proof that accuracy and dodge have no effect on the power, then the dev has even more justification to change it. And IMHO, the video doesn't prove anything except for that rex's own accuracy beat his own dodge given the statement from Ratbeard.

Who knows, maybe it isn't gear...maybe taking one token companion with awesome powers into the fight coupled with less accuracy outside of those powers is the answer. *shrug*. Heck, Nausica has enough powers that me self-nerfing her accuracy a touch might not be out of the question.

2 cents. I'll slip back into the shadows now. *salute*
"... the video doesn't prove anything ..." What it proves is that the power is completely luck-based.

Ensign
Jun 22, 2013
8
I was killed by my crew with BOD first round yesterday. I was on my swash with really high dodge and killed with Nausica, Baar, and Fan. Nausica was killed the next round with Big Guns. Game over.

I'm not a fan of nerfing powers, but maybe the captain being immune or taking 25% damage. Or where we can at least have a chance to separate first. Then if you choose to stay bunched up...it's on you

Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
Ratbeard on Jul 11, 2016 wrote:
Aye, I've been on vacation for a week but I'll be back at it tomorrow.

I've already got one trial version that doesn't allow the units to target the player (crew only fights crew, in other words) and while I know that will "work" I don't know if it's the fix I want (or you all want).

Chipping away at the 1st turn issue is a little more tricky and time-consuming.

Suffice to say I agree with you that a power this swingy is not fun (Wild Bolt? Ugh!) and I'm also not a fan of matches that end before you've had a chance to act.

What is surprising to me is how often the bad penny seems to be turning up (anecdotally, of course), and what is unknown to me is whether there's some other issue in your typical PvP strategy that is making it more dangerous than it should be (for example, one obvious thought: Is it typical for you Pirates to be glass cannons who can easily get whacked by your own glass cannon crew? I don't have much sympathy for that.)

But I can definitively say the power won't be banned, in PvP or otherwise, and if it ends up nerfed on turn 1 or otherwise provided with an easy "counter", then you should expect to see it strengthened in other ways.
I am a buccaneer, the comps I use are toro, goro and pete, so other than perhaps toro, no this is not a glass cannon event!

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Jul 11, 2016 wrote:
Aye, I've been on vacation for a week but I'll be back at it tomorrow.

I've already got one trial version that doesn't allow the units to target the player (crew only fights crew, in other words) and while I know that will "work" I don't know if it's the fix I want (or you all want).

Chipping away at the 1st turn issue is a little more tricky and time-consuming.

Suffice to say I agree with you that a power this swingy is not fun (Wild Bolt? Ugh!) and I'm also not a fan of matches that end before you've had a chance to act.

What is surprising to me is how often the bad penny seems to be turning up (anecdotally, of course), and what is unknown to me is whether there's some other issue in your typical PvP strategy that is making it more dangerous than it should be (for example, one obvious thought: Is it typical for you Pirates to be glass cannons who can easily get whacked by your own glass cannon crew? I don't have much sympathy for that.)

But I can definitively say the power won't be banned, in PvP or otherwise, and if it ends up nerfed on turn 1 or otherwise provided with an easy "counter", then you should expect to see it strengthened in other ways.
For example, one obvious thought: Is it typical for you Pirates to be glass cannons who can easily get whacked by your own glass cannon crew? I don't have much sympathy for that.

In the video in question, it was a Privateer vs Swashbuckler. So yes, the Swashbuckler, is a "glass cannon". That's what the class is meant to do. I don't see how being a glass cannon makes a pirate dying turn one any more acceptable. Ryan died before he even had a chance to see his powers, talk about unfair.

The fact of the matter is that a power which has no counter turn 1 and has the potential to win you the duel turn 1 will always cause an uproar.

I am sure that there are plenty of duels out there that happen where Blast of Discord is used and not a lot of damage is done. But those few duels were it does do a lot of damage, like in Sly Wolf's video, it feels pretty unfair. It just shouldn't happen that a companion or player can die turn 1 before the player even has a chance to use any power.

Which is where your suggested solution might falter. Even if the companions are unable to hit the pirate, then now the problem would still be companions killing each other turn 1, again, before the player on the receiving end of it can even react to it. That would still be hugely unfair and not fun.

If the power cannot be made so that it cannot be used turn 1, then I do not see a way for the power to ever have a proper place in PvP. Doesn't matter how much you nerf the power, as long as the potential for it to kill an unit turn one is there, it will make for some very unhappy players and some very cheap matches.

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