9 squad minions in PvP and countdown timer.

AuthorMessage
Ensign
Aug 31, 2013
15
Ahoy!
This message is meant for those who manage ranked PvP systems. While I'm typing this, I'm battling against a Witchdoctor who has both the Moo Manchu robe and the Nefarious staff. Before this, I was concerned about those 2 items in ranked PvP, until my concern came true. When I read the update notes for the first time, I thought: " How can they ban Tides, Blood Flames and Charm (charming gaze ban is OK) and leave those 2 cards allowed to be used?"
The Terror-Cotta troop is really overpowered, 9 vicious charges in one turn? Not to forget HtL3 and explosive. The scorpions have lots of health and deal unnecessary damage while blocking our way in those small battleboards. Please forbid those in the next test realm update. On a side note, I ask you to increase the countdown timer in PvP. The 35 second timer really doesn’t allow me to strategize and makes me miss turns when I try to think about possible consequences of my moves to play correctly .Thanks in advance!

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
145
You probably ran onto my Witchdoctor running this strategy last night, and for that I apologize.

I completely agree with you. The use of both the Terror-Cotta Warriors and Scorpion Staff together should be looked at. I honestly believe this is the best strategy in the game because of how overwhelming it is. The only ways to beat it is to either fog yourself and your team, OR to bring your own warriors and scorpions.

To give you all who have not had the misfortune of running into me and this strategy in the test realm, this is what usually happens:

Turn 1: Summon Terror-Cotta warriors and Baar's Hawk. The Warriors will all use Levy call because they can't move first turn.
Turn 2: Summon Scorpion Staff and Baar's Panther

After that, the summons start to move and with 20 summons in the field (not counting my pet), they completely overwhelm any opponent.

While my opponent is too busy dealing with the summons, I am using Mournsongs on his companions. I send in my companions (Nausica, Baar, Yagi) slowly to finish off the low health targets. So far I am almost undefeated with this strategy across my Privateer, Witchdoctor and Musketeer pirates. The one time I lost was against probably one of the best Swashbucklers in the game (Harry) and even then the match was very very close. I believe he lived with less than 500 health.

The use x9 summons need to be looked at, specially when used together. It is not fun sitting there for the long extended turns as they do their job.

Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
135
spiritrules101 on Jul 18, 2015 wrote:
Ahoy!
This message is meant for those who manage ranked PvP systems. While I'm typing this, I'm battling against a Witchdoctor who has both the Moo Manchu robe and the Nefarious staff. Before this, I was concerned about those 2 items in ranked PvP, until my concern came true. When I read the update notes for the first time, I thought: " How can they ban Tides, Blood Flames and Charm (charming gaze ban is OK) and leave those 2 cards allowed to be used?"
The Terror-Cotta troop is really overpowered, 9 vicious charges in one turn? Not to forget HtL3 and explosive. The scorpions have lots of health and deal unnecessary damage while blocking our way in those small battleboards. Please forbid those in the next test realm update. On a side note, I ask you to increase the countdown timer in PvP. The 35 second timer really doesn’t allow me to strategize and makes me miss turns when I try to think about possible consequences of my moves to play correctly .Thanks in advance!
Lol you must be fighting Quentin a top witch dr

Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
I agree on the countdown timer. I need more time to think. I always end up on the timer counting down to 1 or 0 and I feel rushed. More time please!

Honestly, they should ban the Terra-Cotta summon but not the scorpions. The scorpions I think is okay. They have normal attacks not a vicious charge.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9079
Yes, the one time I used this strategy for my witchdoctor was a complete success. Alex has described exactly what I did ( minus the beast banner, which didn't show until the end of the match ) and my mournsong went hiding as well.
When the other player's Nausica tried to charge me, she encountered 6 cheap shots in a row! Both the Cotta and Scorpions have this talent.

Ensign
Aug 31, 2013
15
Alex Hawkins on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
You probably ran onto my Witchdoctor running this strategy last night, and for that I apologize.

I completely agree with you. The use of both the Terror-Cotta Warriors and Scorpion Staff together should be looked at. I honestly believe this is the best strategy in the game because of how overwhelming it is. The only ways to beat it is to either fog yourself and your team, OR to bring your own warriors and scorpions.

To give you all who have not had the misfortune of running into me and this strategy in the test realm, this is what usually happens:

Turn 1: Summon Terror-Cotta warriors and Baar's Hawk. The Warriors will all use Levy call because they can't move first turn.
Turn 2: Summon Scorpion Staff and Baar's Panther

After that, the summons start to move and with 20 summons in the field (not counting my pet), they completely overwhelm any opponent.

While my opponent is too busy dealing with the summons, I am using Mournsongs on his companions. I send in my companions (Nausica, Baar, Yagi) slowly to finish off the low health targets. So far I am almost undefeated with this strategy across my Privateer, Witchdoctor and Musketeer pirates. The one time I lost was against probably one of the best Swashbucklers in the game (Harry) and even then the match was very very close. I believe he lived with less than 500 health.

The use x9 summons need to be looked at, specially when used together. It is not fun sitting there for the long extended turns as they do their job.
Yes, I'm sure I did.
Using both of those powers in one fight leaves to way for your enemy to defeat you, or even moving to you. The battleboards are ridiculously small and only allies can pass through 18 extra units. The terror-cotta have almost no counter, for they are so high in health and number for 4 units to defeat before they reduce your whole team's accuracy severely. The scorpions have even higher damage and health. How can they even ban the infernal wave and frozen tide and leave those 2 powers while they only have temporary effects and aren't so effective compared to the minions? The terror-cotta are just as bad as doubloons are, and if they don't disable those in ranked matches, I will simply quit PvP and not pay for memberships until the storyline update comes. This update is not enough to make us wait for the story update. Where are 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4? Where are the good old battleboards that made strategy usable? I don't know.
And you just reminded me of those matches. If you can recall a buccaneer named Sarah Nightingale, we have battled twice and the second time you very luckily won because of an epic mojo blade in the last moment when I was about to defeat you.
I'm glad to know that you know their use is unfair, especially because the new players can't get those 2 items easily, which means that older players have an advantage, for they farmed the tower when the drop rates were much higher.

Ensign
Aug 31, 2013
15
Musket No Teer on Jul 19, 2015 wrote:
I agree on the countdown timer. I need more time to think. I always end up on the timer counting down to 1 or 0 and I feel rushed. More time please!

Honestly, they should ban the Terra-Cotta summon but not the scorpions. The scorpions I think is okay. They have normal attacks not a vicious charge.
I agree with everything. I have defeated several scorpion users, as they don't have Hold the line 3 or vicious charges, and they eventually take me and my companions down to Turn the Tide, which I like. I've even defeated one cotta user, but I've to confess that my luck was extreme in that match.

Ensign
Feb 10, 2013
1
This is definitely something they need to fix, and if I didn't find this post I would have made one myself. Using both of these summons in PvP is just too overwhelming for any opponent who doesn't have them his or herself to fight off. It's just as much cheating in my eyes as using Charm in PvP is. I know I'm basically just repeating everything that's already been said, but seriously, these summons just shouldn't be allowed in PvP, and the only explanation I can think of for why these weren't banned at the same time as Charm and company is that KI forgot that these summons were a thing.

Developer
spiritrules101 on Jul 18, 2015 wrote:
Ahoy!
This message is meant for those who manage ranked PvP systems. While I'm typing this, I'm battling against a Witchdoctor who has both the Moo Manchu robe and the Nefarious staff. Before this, I was concerned about those 2 items in ranked PvP, until my concern came true. When I read the update notes for the first time, I thought: " How can they ban Tides, Blood Flames and Charm (charming gaze ban is OK) and leave those 2 cards allowed to be used?"
The Terror-Cotta troop is really overpowered, 9 vicious charges in one turn? Not to forget HtL3 and explosive. The scorpions have lots of health and deal unnecessary damage while blocking our way in those small battleboards. Please forbid those in the next test realm update. On a side note, I ask you to increase the countdown timer in PvP. The 35 second timer really doesn’t allow me to strategize and makes me miss turns when I try to think about possible consequences of my moves to play correctly .Thanks in advance!
How can they ban Tides, Blood Flames and Charm (charming gaze ban is OK) and leave those 2 cards allowed to be used?"

You misunderstand the purpose of excluding certain powers from PvP. It is not a balance mechanism; it's a functionality mechanism.

  • Blood Flames is out because the power summons a prop that is not designed for player use.
  • Charm (and Charming Gaze) is out because the duration of Charm does not work in a 2-player match (let alone a 4-player match-- it's a logic nightmare!)
  • The Tides are out because they do not function correctly in the 4-for-all format.
The only explanation I can think of for why these weren't banned at the same time as Charm and company is that KI forgot that these summons were a thing.

Summons are a key part of the witchdoctor arsenal. That's why they have some kind of summon in almost every 5-level group of powers. So, no. That's not a forgettable thing.

The concern with summons, such as it is, is almost exclusively focused on not making summons more powerful in the hands of swashbucklers than anybody else. It is fair to say that the "freakout level" of witchdoctors crushing opponents with summons is at about the same level as swashbucklers crushing opponents with Black Fog-- which is to say, completely expected.

I'm glad to know that you know their use is unfair, especially because the new players can't get those 2 items easily, which means that older players have an advantage, for they farmed the tower when the drop rates were much higher.

The drop rates in the tower have not been changed. Farm away.

---

Moo's Robe is another matter entirely-- it will be toned down a bit, but as of yet those fixes are not only not working, they're actually buggy enough to make matters worse.

(And FYI, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ask for a "temporary ban until it's fixed"-- since even that would also entail bringing the servers down for an update to the game, we might as well just fix the issue.)

Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
Honestly, I agree with ratbeard in that players who farm for better gear should have a competitive advantage over bazaar farmers and/or tribal pack equipment wearers. Summoning eighteen minions is powerful, but not impossible to beat. I wouldn't ban items simply because they swarm the map with minions.

On the other hand, what IS too powerful are the terracotta warriors, only because of their vicious charge. Hold the line and explosions are annoying, but reducing your entire team's accuracy for five turns, and then using more charges later to increase that time is definitely OP.

I would keep the scorpions and beast banner in play, but ban the moo robe until the LC bug is fixed and vicious charge is removed. If you want to give them the X2 damage or X2 speed, go ahead, just don't make our companions walking riposte fodder.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Without the summons, witchdoctors would have even less of a chance than they currently do. The scorpions rarely do a lot of damage and usually miss. They are good for taking up space and blocking attacks from the opponent. Yes the matches take longer, but unless they increase witch doctor spell damage, dodge, armor, and epics, we would be sitting ducks waiting to be killed, especially by bucklers and buccaneers.

Overall, I dont even see many witchdoctors at a high rank, maybe one champion, the rest seem to be hero or lower. So taking summons away would not make a lot of sense.

Developer
bluba4 on Aug 21, 2015 wrote:
Honestly, I agree with ratbeard in that players who farm for better gear should have a competitive advantage over bazaar farmers and/or tribal pack equipment wearers. Summoning eighteen minions is powerful, but not impossible to beat. I wouldn't ban items simply because they swarm the map with minions.

On the other hand, what IS too powerful are the terracotta warriors, only because of their vicious charge. Hold the line and explosions are annoying, but reducing your entire team's accuracy for five turns, and then using more charges later to increase that time is definitely OP.

I would keep the scorpions and beast banner in play, but ban the moo robe until the LC bug is fixed and vicious charge is removed. If you want to give them the X2 damage or X2 speed, go ahead, just don't make our companions walking riposte fodder.
I would keep the scorpions and beast banner in play, but ban the moo robe until the LC bug is fixed and vicious charge is removed.

I mentioned it in another thread, but "just ban the robe until it's fixed" isn't really a workable suggestion. Since we have to bring the server down anyway even if we just want to change the ban status, we might as well just bring it down and implement the fix.

Without the summons, witchdoctors would have even less of a chance than they currently do. So taking summons away would not make a lot of sense.

You know where I stand. The situation has to be dire indeed before I would recommend anything like that.

Gunner's Mate
Jun 22, 2011
208
I faced a WD the other day who use the Robe, the Scorpions and the line of Hoplites in addition to Ratbeard with RB3 and HTL3. I lost, and badly. I couldn't move by the end because of HTL3 and my dodge was close to nothing on all of my companions. I lost the riposte war on my 185 base dodge swashbuckler. It also helped that the board was entirely swamped with minions.

Ensign
Nov 29, 2013
18
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 21, 2015 wrote:
Without the summons, witchdoctors would have even less of a chance than they currently do. The scorpions rarely do a lot of damage and usually miss. They are good for taking up space and blocking attacks from the opponent. Yes the matches take longer, but unless they increase witch doctor spell damage, dodge, armor, and epics, we would be sitting ducks waiting to be killed, especially by bucklers and buccaneers.

Overall, I dont even see many witchdoctors at a high rank, maybe one champion, the rest seem to be hero or lower. So taking summons away would not make a lot of sense.
I get by your scorpions almost every time even with elusive 3d and same goes for the terra which should hit a buckler at about 240 dodge....