To Ratbeard: Discussion of Hidden and Scent

2
AuthorMessage
Ensign
Jun 06, 2014
7
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 26, 2014 wrote:
Quick question Ratbeard: Can Burst Fire/Relentless "see" a hidden enemy like follow through does?
no it wouldn't unless you were already hitting them while they were hidden

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
211
Ratbeard on Aug 26, 2014 wrote:
Question rewrite #1: Can Burst Fire/Relentless currently "see" a hidden enemy like follow through does?

No.

Burst Fire and Relentless (and the Mojo analog) all target the same enemy you originally targeted. If you couldn't target him in the first place, the follow up won't, either.

But for the record, Glancing Blow can (as in, it already does).

Question rewrite #2: Would you consider changing it so that Burst Fire/Relentless can "see" a hidden enemy like follow through does?

No.

EDIT: Rewrote "Follow Up" (our internal name!) as Relentless for clarity!
Thanks, I was considering going for double tap 3(which is a sneak attack that can see hidden) and burst fire 2. With a little bit of luck that could have been a decent way to damage a hidden unit if burst fire could have targeted a hidden unit. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

Developer
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 26, 2014 wrote:
Thanks, I was considering going for double tap 3(which is a sneak attack that can see hidden) and burst fire 2. With a little bit of luck that could have been a decent way to damage a hidden unit if burst fire could have targeted a hidden unit. Ah well, back to the drawing board.
I'm not sure where the misconception that sneak attacks can see hidden came from, but now I've seen it here as well as through internal bug reports from the Duellist crew. (Very good reports, don't get me wrong-- we appreciate them.)

But it looks like you guys are all on the same (mistaken) page.

There's nothing about an attack being hidden (sneak attack) that allows you to see hidden attacks.

I'd like to figure out where this perception is coming from to determine whether it's a miscommunication or a bug.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
211
Ratbeard on Aug 27, 2014 wrote:
I'm not sure where the misconception that sneak attacks can see hidden came from, but now I've seen it here as well as through internal bug reports from the Duellist crew. (Very good reports, don't get me wrong-- we appreciate them.)

But it looks like you guys are all on the same (mistaken) page.

There's nothing about an attack being hidden (sneak attack) that allows you to see hidden attacks.

I'd like to figure out where this perception is coming from to determine whether it's a miscommunication or a bug.
This misconception comes from a statement you had made in test realm during the aquilla/marleybone updates. I can't find a link to the official thread(perhaps it has been archived?) But here is a link to the pirate101 central thread describing what you stated: Discussion of Epics

"Ordinarily Blade Storm, Double Tap, and Mojo Rising can't see HIDDEN enemies.

However, they gain this new ability with Rank 3."

Developer
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 27, 2014 wrote:
This misconception comes from a statement you had made in test realm during the aquilla/marleybone updates. I can't find a link to the official thread(perhaps it has been archived?) But here is a link to the pirate101 central thread describing what you stated: Discussion of Epics

"Ordinarily Blade Storm, Double Tap, and Mojo Rising can't see HIDDEN enemies.

However, they gain this new ability with Rank 3."
Wow, that's... not at all what I implemented. (And not the text that is on the card as it stands now.)

So let's clarify what's actually in the code as it stands:

Normally, this line of epics just launches another "copy" of your basic attack (melee/ranged/magic). At rank 3, these talents instead launch their own special "rank 3" attack with these features:

1) The bonus sneak attack is tagged as hidden (which means that the target can't respond to that attack unless their own epic talent can see hidden);

2) The bonus attack does not use the usual accuracy/dodge comparison with your target, but compares primary stats instead.

But it looks like at some point I decided not to allow these bonus attacks to randomly choose hidden targets, because that restriction is still active on all three talents. I am going to guess that it was starting to infringe uncomfortably on Follow Through, which is very much like Bladestorm but does allow you to randomly target a hidden foe.

--------------

And as for the epic talents that can "see" sneak attacks, they are:

  • First Strike 3
  • Quick Draw 3
  • Intuition 3

In other words, these "interrupt" talents (which are all variations of, "I am fast enough to see your attack coming!") are fast enough that they can even see hidden attacks coming.

-----

Bonus tech jargon:

Both an attacker and an attack may have a "hidden" status, but they actually follow two different code paths. Almost always (if I haven't made a mistake...) an epic talent verifies that neither the attacker nor the incoming attack is hidden. But because they follow a different code path, it is possible for the attacker to be hidden, but his attack is not; or for the attack to be hidden, but the attacker is not.

The bonus sneak attack from Bladestorm (et al) falls into that latter category: the attacker is not hidden, but the attack itself is considered hidden, and so it will not provoke responses (or chains) from the target.

Ensign
Dec 30, 2011
8
Ratbeard - Terrific response! Thanks very much for the insight into the underlying implementation - it really helps explain the observed behavior.

As to the "not the text that is on the card" comment - given the limited space available on the card and the complexity of the combat mechanics, we've learned that the descriptions given can sometimes be, uh, let's say "incomplete".

LeahC

Ensign
Mar 15, 2011
4
Ratbeard on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Wow, that's... not at all what I implemented. (And not the text that is on the card as it stands now.)

So let's clarify what's actually in the code as it stands:

Normally, this line of epics just launches another "copy" of your basic attack (melee/ranged/magic). At rank 3, these talents instead launch their own special "rank 3" attack with these features:

1) The bonus sneak attack is tagged as hidden (which means that the target can't respond to that attack unless their own epic talent can see hidden);

2) The bonus attack does not use the usual accuracy/dodge comparison with your target, but compares primary stats instead.

But it looks like at some point I decided not to allow these bonus attacks to randomly choose hidden targets, because that restriction is still active on all three talents. I am going to guess that it was starting to infringe uncomfortably on Follow Through, which is very much like Bladestorm but does allow you to randomly target a hidden foe.

--------------

And as for the epic talents that can "see" sneak attacks, they are:

  • First Strike 3
  • Quick Draw 3
  • Intuition 3

In other words, these "interrupt" talents (which are all variations of, "I am fast enough to see your attack coming!") are fast enough that they can even see hidden attacks coming.

-----

Bonus tech jargon:

Both an attacker and an attack may have a "hidden" status, but they actually follow two different code paths. Almost always (if I haven't made a mistake...) an epic talent verifies that neither the attacker nor the incoming attack is hidden. But because they follow a different code path, it is possible for the attacker to be hidden, but his attack is not; or for the attack to be hidden, but the attacker is not.

The bonus sneak attack from Bladestorm (et al) falls into that latter category: the attacker is not hidden, but the attack itself is considered hidden, and so it will not provoke responses (or chains) from the target.


The bonus sneak attack from Bladestorm (et al) falls into that latter category: the attacker is not hidden, but the attack itself is considered hidden, and so it will not provoke responses (or chains) from the target.


Dear Ratbeard,

Even if those responses are germane from a unit with either FirstStrike3 or VengeanceStrike3???? I appreciate the clarity otherwise, but this is making my head fuzzy.

Ensign
Mar 15, 2011
4
Dear Ratbeard (x2 Lol),

I guess you can pretty much scratch "VengeanceStrike3" out of my last question as it doesn't technically "affect sneak attacks" but IS a sneak attack, it's quite illogical for me to have even asked you that, I suppose.

FirstStrike3, however, I do very much wonder about in that regard.

P.S. How in the world do you manage to keep your head on straight while pinning down the wheres and why fores of Epics protocol? Crosses my wires, lol.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
211
Ratbeard on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Wow, that's... not at all what I implemented. (And not the text that is on the card as it stands now.)

So let's clarify what's actually in the code as it stands:

Normally, this line of epics just launches another "copy" of your basic attack (melee/ranged/magic). At rank 3, these talents instead launch their own special "rank 3" attack with these features:

1) The bonus sneak attack is tagged as hidden (which means that the target can't respond to that attack unless their own epic talent can see hidden);

2) The bonus attack does not use the usual accuracy/dodge comparison with your target, but compares primary stats instead.

But it looks like at some point I decided not to allow these bonus attacks to randomly choose hidden targets, because that restriction is still active on all three talents. I am going to guess that it was starting to infringe uncomfortably on Follow Through, which is very much like Bladestorm but does allow you to randomly target a hidden foe.

--------------

And as for the epic talents that can "see" sneak attacks, they are:

  • First Strike 3
  • Quick Draw 3
  • Intuition 3

In other words, these "interrupt" talents (which are all variations of, "I am fast enough to see your attack coming!") are fast enough that they can even see hidden attacks coming.

-----

Bonus tech jargon:

Both an attacker and an attack may have a "hidden" status, but they actually follow two different code paths. Almost always (if I haven't made a mistake...) an epic talent verifies that neither the attacker nor the incoming attack is hidden. But because they follow a different code path, it is possible for the attacker to be hidden, but his attack is not; or for the attack to be hidden, but the attacker is not.

The bonus sneak attack from Bladestorm (et al) falls into that latter category: the attacker is not hidden, but the attack itself is considered hidden, and so it will not provoke responses (or chains) from the target.
That's a lot of great info, we really appreciate it . Good thing that misconception is cleared up as I was seriously considering modifying Nausica with double tap 3. By respond to the attack I assume you only mean "first strike" type responses as vengeance strike, true grit and riposte still respond to a "sneak" attack. Finally what do you mean they "compare main stats" instead of accuracy and dodge? Does that mean that a rank 3 double tap/bladestorm is almost guaranteed not to miss?

Developer
LeahC1 on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Ratbeard - Terrific response! Thanks very much for the insight into the underlying implementation - it really helps explain the observed behavior.

As to the "not the text that is on the card" comment - given the limited space available on the card and the complexity of the combat mechanics, we've learned that the descriptions given can sometimes be, uh, let's say "incomplete".

LeahC
As to the "not the text that is on the card" comment - given the limited space available on the card and the complexity of the combat mechanics, we've learned that the descriptions given can sometimes be, uh, let's say "incomplete".

I know-- all I can do is apologize for that. There's only so much I can fit on the card, and sometimes the finer details (which often would only matter to you Duellist crazies) have to go by the wayside.

This is definitely not a case of trying to have any "secret" functionality-- so when I can help clarify, I will do so.

Finally what do you mean they "compare main stats" instead of accuracy and dodge?

Anytime you mouse over another unit in combat, you can see the results of those kinds of comparisons. We (now) directly report that "compare stats" function back to you as the bonus crit chance. (Cue the Duellist crazies making testing comparisons and compiling data...)

That function, however, doesn't have to be applied only to crits. That same function is used to determine the bonus attack chance on Relentless/BF3, for example, and it's used to provide a hit bonus on Bladestorm 3.

TLDR: Having higher primary stats than your target is good, y'all.

By respond to the attack I assume you only mean "first strike" type responses as vengeance strike, true grit and riposte still respond to a "sneak" attack.

The dagger is not exactly hidden anymore once it's stuck in your ribs. So, no.

Good thing that misconception is cleared up as I was seriously considering modifying Nausica with double tap 3.

That depends on how you want the target to be able to respond. I would think that having her charge over to a MSK unit, use an auto-crit to kick off DT3, and then have all of her attacks sneak through anything short of Quick Draw 3 is still worth it.

P.S. How in the world do you manage to keep your head on straight while pinning down the wheres and why fores of Epics protocol? Crosses my wires, lol.

I don't. It leads to mistakes all the time like, "No boss gear is stitchable!" when in fact, "All boss gear is stitchable!"

Which is why it always pays to never rely on my memory and always look directly at the game data-- but that can take a lot of time. Maybe you'd prefer to get 5 responses per day with a 90% accuracy rate than 1 response with a 100% accuracy rate. I dunno, you tell me.

Ensign
Dec 30, 2011
8
"(Cue the Duellist crazies making testing comparisons and compiling data...)"

Guilty as charged .

Of course, Ratbeard isn't exactly a fine upstanding citizen of the highest moral fibre (or even for a pirate). Stealing Cap'n Gunn's treasure, wanting to throw in with Moo Manchu - for shame!

Someone needs to keep you honest when Bonnie Anne isn't around...

LeahC

Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
Ratbeard on Aug 28, 2014 wrote:
Wow, that's... not at all what I implemented. (And not the text that is on the card as it stands now.)

So let's clarify what's actually in the code as it stands:

Normally, this line of epics just launches another "copy" of your basic attack (melee/ranged/magic). At rank 3, these talents instead launch their own special "rank 3" attack with these features:

1) The bonus sneak attack is tagged as hidden (which means that the target can't respond to that attack unless their own epic talent can see hidden);

2) The bonus attack does not use the usual accuracy/dodge comparison with your target, but compares primary stats instead.

But it looks like at some point I decided not to allow these bonus attacks to randomly choose hidden targets, because that restriction is still active on all three talents. I am going to guess that it was starting to infringe uncomfortably on Follow Through, which is very much like Bladestorm but does allow you to randomly target a hidden foe.

--------------

And as for the epic talents that can "see" sneak attacks, they are:

  • First Strike 3
  • Quick Draw 3
  • Intuition 3

In other words, these "interrupt" talents (which are all variations of, "I am fast enough to see your attack coming!") are fast enough that they can even see hidden attacks coming.

-----

Bonus tech jargon:

Both an attacker and an attack may have a "hidden" status, but they actually follow two different code paths. Almost always (if I haven't made a mistake...) an epic talent verifies that neither the attacker nor the incoming attack is hidden. But because they follow a different code path, it is possible for the attacker to be hidden, but his attack is not; or for the attack to be hidden, but the attacker is not.

The bonus sneak attack from Bladestorm (et al) falls into that latter category: the attacker is not hidden, but the attack itself is considered hidden, and so it will not provoke responses (or chains) from the target.
Three questions:

1) Is Intuition a new talent? I've never seen it before...

2) Are there any examples of a hidden attacker casting an attack that is not hidden? I'm a bit confused about that...

3) What do you mean in saying that follow can target a hidden foe? Does that mean if Kan Po is in the shadows adjacent to another character that I can attack the other character with the Minotaur Axe and have a chance to hit Kan Po?

2