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Thoughts on new ranks for epic talents?

2
AuthorMessage
Developer
the Fearless Devil on Jul 29, 2016 wrote:
I'd have to agree with Ratbeard on how 3 epic talent ranks are enough. I mean, it's already enough, you don't want battles to be overly long cut scenes, now do you?
I could see making an exception for Hold the Line, but I'm not sure how often a higher limit would come into play. It's already pretty hard to lock down 3 attackers.

And a higher limit is pretty much useful, if at all, in PvE only.

And yes, having combat be one long cut scene is not ideal. (It's my least favorite part of high level W101, too.)

Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
What if return fire was a counter to double tap in addition to its normal use? So you get an attack either when you dodge a shot or you get hit with a critical shot?

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
I think the epic chains are long now.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Ensign
Jun 23, 2012
30
AHOY

I would like to see rank 4 and 5 focus on the defensive side when it comes to turn the tide, hold the line and elusive.

Turn the Tide:
rank 4: add 10% armor when below 50% health
rank 5: add 15% armor when below 50% health + regen health per round 10% until over 50%

Elusive: same as above

Hold the Line:
rank 4. add 5% armor for each held enemy (hold 3 15%, hold 2 10% etc) for one round
rank 5. add 5% armor for each held enemy for one round. ( rank 4 and 5 stack) (hold 3 enemies 30%, hold 2 20%etc)

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
How about...maybe something a bit "simple", but still useful.

Aggro type Rank 4 Epics
Debuff/Damage all adjacent enemies (or within weapon/attack range) for 'X' amount of rounds. By damage, I mean add lingering damage via bleed/poison/collateral damage for 'X' amount of rounds. Same type effects can't stack.

Passive type Rank 4 Epics
Buff/Boost/Shield all adjacent allies (or within movement range). Same type effects can't stack.

Aggro type Rank 5 Epics
Debuff/Damage all enemies on the board (kind of like a doubloon effect) for 'X' amount of rounds. Same type effects can't stack.

Passive type Rank 5 Epics
Buff/Boost/Shield all allies on the board (like doubloon effect) for 'X' amount of rounds. Same type effects can't stack.

Basically just adding oomph to already in place affects, borrowing from already in place programming, adding potency/damage to Aggro Epics, adding potency/power boost to Passive Epics, increasing all affects range/reach...and all while not adding any length to the already long chain of Epics.

Each rank progresses a notch in potency. Rank 3's are pretty much single target affects. Rank 4's become pretty much adjacent/range affects. Rank 5's become unlimited range affects. All while hopefully maintaining class balance, while not upsetting the game play in either PvP nor PvE, promoting Spiral equality and all around good race relations among players and critters of every companion type. Plus it wouldn't seem to create any major overhauls or introduction to entirely new programming/mechanics. Maybe a bit bland perhaps, but at least we'd all be bland together.

I don't know- just some more brainstorming.

Ensign
Feb 16, 2010
4
For Turn The Tide I'd suggest 10-40% more damage, as it doesn't do much no matter the level of the Pirate/Companion. Persay if it did 120, I'd like to add more unto that as it won't KILL the enemy. :P

~Anne

Petty Officer
Nov 05, 2012
96
Well for improved mojo blast rank 4 could increase your accuracy per enemy you hit, and rank 5 would have a 35% chance of slowing the enemy. Witch hunter rank 4 could negate an incoming attack and rank 5 could reduce accuracy (reverse that if you want). Readied spell/ overarching/repel boarders rank 4 could reduce weapon power and rank 5 could have a chance at a stun. Mojo rising/ double tap/bladestorm rank 4 could have a chance to reduce armor or resist by 25% and rank 5 could have a chance to steal an activated attack.

Ensign
Jan 18, 2014
10
I think 3 is enough, the enemies in Valencia 2 are very powerful, just imagine them with Rank 4 or 5 Epics.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9777
With First Strike3 removing hide ( and the x2 weapon damage ) and with more enemies with this talent; I want a way to enhance my crew's damage. I also want that damage to have a specific number of rounds in use, no more "use it and lose it" garbage!

Petty Officer
Nov 05, 2012
96
El Veroaro on Aug 25, 2016 wrote:
I think 3 is enough, the enemies in Valencia 2 are very powerful, just imagine them with Rank 4 or 5 Epics.
we would have them to, and in valencia 2 enemies are tougher but not almighty, the biggest problem would have to be the guards in the royal palace, they do far more damage than they should. 1200 would be enough, but up to 2000 damage is crazy, i only beat them with a witchdoctor strategy using mormo, i can't imagine what it was like for melee. but that aside i don't think all the enemies in valencia are to difficult, so giving rank 4 and 5 is pretty much eventual. besides its not like all the enemies in the first new worlds are going to have them, we'll progress and eventually the enemies will get more dangerous. also, ratbeard, can i ask why we are allowed to use numbers in the forums but not in game?

Petty Officer
Nov 05, 2012
96
hey ratbeard, these updates, they'll come out during a world update right? or a minor one?

Dread Pirate
Jun 13, 2011
2037
Ratbeard on Aug 2, 2016 wrote:
I could see making an exception for Hold the Line, but I'm not sure how often a higher limit would come into play. It's already pretty hard to lock down 3 attackers.

And a higher limit is pretty much useful, if at all, in PvE only.

And yes, having combat be one long cut scene is not ideal. (It's my least favorite part of high level W101, too.)
Yeah. I agree with ya on the long battle cutscenes. They're the most irritating parts of combat. Sure wish W101 would streamline lot o' these...

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Ratbeard on Jul 28, 2016 wrote:
P.s, I have notice Return Fire, unlike Riposte and Counterspell, is not a sneak attack, is there any reason for this or is this a bug?

Looking at the talent descriptions, none of them appear to be sneak attacks. Before I dig deeper, would you mind explaining why you think they are?

On a side note, if this ever come out, I hope companions will be able to learn more epics? As it stands only a handful could even learn those rank 4/5 and still be effective.

At the moment, the intent is to expand the ranks due to the amount of player equipment/pets that add bonus ranks. I'd like to see them count for something. I don't plan to make any of the additional ranks trainable (yet), but players (via equipment) and companions (via epic talent buff spells) may be able to access the higher ranks.

Rank 4 is likely to be something fairly simple and pedestrian (like an improved crit chance) and Rank 5 is where the scope of the talents might stretch into new and interesting directions.

I'd like to see something that would maybe pre-empt any return Epic attack (i.e., stun opponent) and put an end to the chaining.

I hear you. That's probably the main driver against additional uses/turn. There's already a few talents that try to do this in different ways-- stunning, hidden attacks-- and while I like the idea, I don't want it to edge out more interesting (and new) suggestions. But it's on the table.

I should also mention that a revision of Return Fire is on the table since it's proven to be such a rump talent.
Yes, I realize I'm way behind in posting this, but I figured I'd better do it while I have the chance. A lot of problems came up and prevented me from posting until today, but enough about that. I had a number of ideas, and while not all of them got edited enough I still feel that they would be something to build on. [Yes these ranks were decided in the test realm, so these aren't applicable now, but I still feel they can be used for something.] Here are two of them:

Ideas for Rank 4 and 5 Epic Talents (Late to the forum, due to crown purchase problems)

Bladestorm/Double Tap/Mojo Rising (Maybe the efficiency of the continued epics and kills either draw enemies to the user or scare them away. Let’s call this effect Magnetic, and like a magnet it either pulls or pushes on the enemies around them. Enemies with S/A/W stat higher than the user can’t get close enough to attack, if the user was already out of range, while enemies with lower S/A/W than the user can’t leave, and all of this lasting until the end of the enemy turn. If this is a bad idea, or not thought out enough, maybe the critical hit chance increases from successful hits with this talent, in larger increments with each rank.)

4: +1% chance critical hit for every hit with this talent.
5: +2% chance critical hit for every hit with this talent and 25% chance Magnetic with every hit with this talent.

Cheap Shot/Parting Shot/Coward’s Bane (Attacking when the opponent’s back is turned is only part of this talent in my opinion. Sure the immobilization chance is a nice touch, and should probably be increased, but I’m thinking about pirate tactics. This is an underhanded talent, so what about a way to make it even dirtier? Lowers opponent defense/resistance a bit, making them less able to defend themselves, vulnerable.)

4: immobilization chance 35+% (increases with every run away attempt)
5: immobilization chance 35+% (increases with every run away attempt) and target loses 25% defense/resistance

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Here are two more:

Elusive (Defined online as difficult to catch or in this case hit, but the second definition says difficult to remember, so what if this talent gained a chance to stop whatever chain of talents that were being triggered at the time, from the attacker. Just the current attacker and it doesn’t stop talents permanently. In fact, should the target try to move away, Cheap/Parting/Coward’s talent will activate should the attacking party have such, and the chain could continue from there.)

4: +50% dodge and +3 movement when at 50% health or below.
5: +75% dodge, +3 movement, and 25% chance of causing Aimless when at 50% health or below.

First Strike/Quick Draw/Intuition (When I found out how dangerous Black Fog was, in the forum complaints, and saw requests for changing, I wanted to think up a way to counter it and say, “Deadly, but manageable.” I learned about First Strike’s removal of hidden when rank 3, and assumed this applied to its counterparts as well. I didn’t believe this to be an effective solution, but I was thankfully proven wrong. In Valencia, I got to see firsthand how effective a team with First Strike 3 and Quick Draw 3 could be and we’re certain to face harder challenges in the future, so to take the edge off this sudden attack, why not make it even faster than its prior ranks? Confusing? Sorry, to put it another way: Preempting a preemptive attack, if you will, and thereby giving back a little bit of Black Fog’s former overpowered feel. [Though I’m sure it’s not needed for every pirate.] This means the attacker, gets a chance to attack first, even if the target has First Strike ranks 1-4. Although, increasing weapon power from spotting sneak attacks is a nice plan too.)

4: +15% weapon power from spotting sneak attacks.
5: +30% weapon power from spotting sneak attacks and 50% chance to Preempt rank 1-4 stats.

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Here are two more (Yeah, I typed too much):

Flanking/Crossfire/Crosscast (I’m glad I looked this up. It makes perfect sense to me for rank 3 to lower movement. The enemy remains prone to more attacks the less it can get away, but I’ve never seen it used like that in the game. I suppose not too many have researched the history of flanking, but they probably have never heard of double envelopment. Since it's the most effective flanking movement historically, we could make it easier to utilize; make it so that if neither party changes position flanking triggers anyhow. [I couldn’t find out how much movement is lowered, so instead of lowering critical, maybe movement could be lower, but not immobilize.])

4: Target -1% crit hit chance every hit with this talent.
5: Target -2% crit hit chance every hit with this talent, & 3x stationary attack.

Hold the Line (A unique talent, that only one class learns, but can be granted. Lowered dodge: helpful ability for a buccaneer, and it could have an increased range of effect too. I think having a higher debuff and range wouldn’t be a problem, but I can understand why it might look OP. The ability to skip Hold the Line’s effects is something that might need to be changed, and increasing the range could do that. This is something I’ve noticed with the Repel talents too. By running through a character already affected by the talent, the opponent can avoid the effects all together. Changing the range of effect should solve this ‘gap in the ranks’ problem, and while it can trigger more because of this, the dodge decrease wouldn't happen until the opponent is right next to the user.)

4: Target -65% dodge.
5: Target -80% dodge, and 2 squares of range [the outer range is five squares long] {It doesn’t have to trigger immobilization at the inner range point if it’s that too much trouble.}

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Three more this time (tried to cut out some stuff, but I may have cut out too much):

Improved Mojo Blast (Yet another unique talent, for obvious reasons, but I’m not sure what to do with this, seeing as only companions have access to it. I would say widen the area further to a 4x4, then 5x5, except that may be overkill even for the challenges ahead in this game. So, why not do even more damage improvements, as Witch Hunter will be quite enough trouble from getting its own upgrades.)

4: +25% damage power.
5: +45% damage power, center target -25% resistance.

Pirate (Well, this is a rather obvious talent. We’re a pirate so we better have the talents of one. Be that as it may, I guess it isn’t for every pirate. I’ve wondered if we’ll ever use this for field combat, not just deck side, but we are of the nautical illegal professions, so I can understand if we don’t. Still, it’s an amazing talent, so if further ranks are in the works let’s cream our enemies and make them empty their cargo holds all the quicker. To make us deadlier in our prey’s home court, improved movement or damage should do the trick.)

4: +50% damage, +50% accuracy.
5: +75% damage, +50% accuracy, and +2 movement on enemy ships.

Relentless/Burst Fire/Mojo Echo (The % increases versus wounded enemies, yet like the ability states, it is a continuation of attacks, so just increasing the use per turn should do fine for 4 and 5. At least, that is the point of this talent, so let’s hit with it even more. Of course, that might not be allowable, so another option could be giving it the chance of causing increased bleeding with each turn.)

4: 45+% chance of triggering

5: bleeding hit +10%, 55+% chance of triggering

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Even more (Nearly done. Please, bear with me. Unless you're not from Grizzleheim, in which case just put up with it and show some true grit. Although, True Grit isn't in this portion.):

Repel Boarders/Overwatch/Readied Spell (Like Hold the Line it triggers in a similar way, so let’s improve it similarly. Instead of increasing the range, let’s give a chance to knock back the enemy, so it can trigger again if they’re foolish enough to attempt the assault a second time. Of course, this takes away the whole point of starting a hit barrage with this talent, but speaking as a Privateer, I’d rather they never get close enough to hit me to begin with.)

4: Target -65% accuracy.

5: Target -80% accuracy, 25% chance Knockback (Oh, look I’m being nice, just a 1 in 4 chance it knocks you back. You know what? I’m a pirate, who said I should be nice? Make that 50% chance Knockback.)

Riposte/Return Fire/Couterspell (If Hold the Line gets the ranks I’ve suggested, players will definitely like a way to get their dodge back. Since Return Fire is up for revising, I would suggest giving it a little more to do, in the way witch hunter is sort of like first strike, but for melee hits instead. No need for decreasing damage, just making it able to work like stock assault should do the trick, but without the stunning and keeping the dodge increase for rank 3. I think it will see a whole lot more use if this happens. It could stay as it is though, since if things keep getting tougher, gunners may want any extra dodge they can get. Also, why not a temporary increase in their main power type too?)

4: +20% dodge.

5: +25% dodge and +25% S/A/W {same as the dodge increase, more every dodge}.

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Yet even more (Seriously, I thought I said this wasn't gonna last much longer. Checking ... Yep, not much longer):

Second Chance/Quick Adjust/Second Cast (Mirror move to Riposte/Return Fire/Counterspell, so since they might add even more dodge, let’s keep up with the Jones’s and add even more accuracy.)

4: +20% accuracy.
5: +25% accuracy, and +25% S/A/W {same as the dodge increase, more every dodge}.

Turn the Tide (Great name, great ability, and I have almost no idea what could be added to this without making it OP. Then again, it’s not like the other talents suggested in this page wouldn’t be OP. So, to keep all the other talents in check, and truly turn the tide in future ranks, I’d suggest keeping to the pattern so far, meaning an armor increase and a resistance increase, which is by no means a weak couple of additions. Not when an addition includes an increase in the previous talents, and to be honest, I’m out of unique ideas right now. You’ve probably already started making the ranks as I wait to solve my posting problem.)

4: +25% weapon power, accuracy, dodge, and armor when below 50% health.

5: +50% weapon power, accuracy, dodge, armor, and resistance when below 50% health.

Vengeance Strike/True Grit/Retribution (This is a truly stunning talent, pun intended, and like how I suggested Relentless/Burst Fire/Mojo Echo get more use per turn, this should play similarly. Actually, it should play out exactly the same, with more bleeding added to the opponent with every hit with this talent. Why? Well, it triggers more versus wounded right?)

4: 45+% chance of triggering stun, % increases versus wounded.

5: Bleeding hit +10%, 55+% chance of triggering stun, % increases versus wounded.

Bloodsucker and other talents are difficult for me to come up with rank 4 and 5, since I don’t even know what their rank 3 is. I’m using Pirate101 Central’s data base for my lack of talent knowledge, and not all of the talents have a rank 3 listed, or the right information.

Ensign
May 16, 2013
13
Last one (Show of hands, those of you who thought the one before this was the last. Okay, now those who though I'd forgotten about Witch Hunter. Sorry to burst your bubbles, but I saved this one on purpose as it has been changed already.), here's what I had written originally:

Witch Hunter (I like this talent, a lot. In fact, I nearly gave rank 3 to every companion I had that could learn it, because decreasing the damage from any opponent casting an attack spell sounded highly appealing to me, as well as increasing resistance. Then I realized, it only works if they’re in range to hit back and only if you’re being directly targeted. With that in mind, it could probably be given more resistance increase, or decrease damage even further, or even better; given a chance to activate even from targeting the character indirectly. I couldn’t find the resistance increase amount for rank 3, though.)

4: -50% enemy damage & more resistance increase.
5: -75% enemy damage, even more resistance increase, & 50% chance of indirect activation.

That said, I like the new changes to Witch Hunter, though with them my privy would've suffered very heavy defeats in a certain quest upon his return to Aquila had Emmett and Scratch not removed a great deal of damage power from the snakes. Personal complaints aside, I'd like to make a suggestion (though I've already made plenty at this point): Why not make an anti-Witch Hunter talent? Mind you, I don't mean it cancels out Witch Hunter or any of it's effects. I mean, when Witch Hunter triggers, so does this one, and it shouldn't do much except boost armor/resistance, or boost range/decrease fizzle. (Oh, I like that one. It's not too dangerous, unless they live through the onslaught of chain hits.) Innocence might be a good name for this if the armor/resistance buff happens. Of course, you might be thinking, this is counter productive, but really I'm just putting the ideas out there. Maybe something better will come along. Now I'm done.

Ensign
Jul 30, 2009
8
I think repel boarders would be cool for rank 4 or 5 to grant a one space knockback to literally "repel" the boarders, maybe rank 4 could activate once and then 5 could activate up to 3 times so you'd really have to invest for that wall of defense.

Overwatch rank 4 could increase the activation range by 2 units and then overwatch 5 could prevent the target from moving kind of like hold the line. This could really help ranged units to keep melee ones from closing the gap too quickly, but would have to only activate on the first target to get hit by overwatch so that a single musketeer couldn't hold off a 3 man charge alone.

Petty Officer
Mar 10, 2015
53
I would suggest to revise all of the first strike talents rather then making new ones. The first strike makes it almost impossible for squishy classes to use male companions because they don't have any of the buffs to reduce critical and damage. Using long range companions is just asking for Suiside.

Fix suggest: first strike / over watch / repel borders to only work if the enemy/ player comes in from the front side of the mob. If the player flanks or goes around from the back the talents should not activate.

Ensign
Jul 08, 2014
5
The best part of a game is the challenges. Best not make the attacks TOO great

Petty Officer
Sep 04, 2018
97
I'm just really a bit peeved that character companions can get talents higher ranked than the characters can. I mean on companions health can be trained up to I believe level 5 where levels 3, 4, and 5 each give an extra 200 health, but characters can only train up to level 3 yet its rather easy to get them to level 5 with the proper class and pet.

If we can get a talent up to whatever level we can reach, then we should be rewarded for getting it that high rather than being maxed in what we get out of it at say level 3 when we could go up to 5 or whatever else.

Petty Officer
Sep 04, 2018
97
I really want the pet talent bloodsucker to be made available to the melee classes, whether a pet has it as a grant, its made as a buccaneer talent, or it can be trained at the miracle trainer at a certain level.

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