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Attention Ratbeard, re Jump Talent

AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10123
It has come to my attention that Technomage has tested the Barricade as a defense against Swashbucklers and that Raise Barricade will keep a swashbuckler from approaching; yet, on at least two occasions in a 1v1 ranked PVP match, I have jumped over a barricade ( and yes it was placed properly, a solid line of five barriers ) and so has El Toro.
So my question is this: is this a glitch? Or does Jump behave differently in the PVP arena than it does in a House arena?
If it is a glitch, I wish to appeal that it remains; Musketeers are already so difficult for not just my class but also others, besides this is exactly what the Jump Talent is for - to leap obstacles.
If you still decide that this glitch must be investigated and removed, then this renders Jump of no use at all in PVP. I believe ALL my talents should be used in both PVE as well as PVP.
That's all, and thank you for your time.

Developer
Nothing was changed on Raise Barricade other than its area of effect.

But, it should be noted that Raise Barricade summons a different kind of prop as you level up-- it may be that some props are set one way, or the other. For example, maybe you can jump over the metal shield version but not the spiky logs version.

In that case, that would be a bug-- it should be standardized (and it would be resolved in favor of Jump.)

I assume that Swashbucklers can jump over obstacles. That is the intended design; and yes, when I talk about using Raise Barricade as a defense against swashbucklers, I assume Jump is in the mix.

Until I actually see a bug report internally, I am just chalking this up to, "Two players have a difference of opinion."

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6204
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Nothing was changed on Raise Barricade other than its area of effect.

But, it should be noted that Raise Barricade summons a different kind of prop as you level up-- it may be that some props are set one way, or the other. For example, maybe you can jump over the metal shield version but not the spiky logs version.

In that case, that would be a bug-- it should be standardized (and it would be resolved in favor of Jump.)

I assume that Swashbucklers can jump over obstacles. That is the intended design; and yes, when I talk about using Raise Barricade as a defense against swashbucklers, I assume Jump is in the mix.

Until I actually see a bug report internally, I am just chalking this up to, "Two players have a difference of opinion."
Ok, now I am confused. How is Raise Barricades a defense against swashbucklers if they can just jump over them?

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Nothing was changed on Raise Barricade other than its area of effect.

But, it should be noted that Raise Barricade summons a different kind of prop as you level up-- it may be that some props are set one way, or the other. For example, maybe you can jump over the metal shield version but not the spiky logs version.

In that case, that would be a bug-- it should be standardized (and it would be resolved in favor of Jump.)

I assume that Swashbucklers can jump over obstacles. That is the intended design; and yes, when I talk about using Raise Barricade as a defense against swashbucklers, I assume Jump is in the mix.

Until I actually see a bug report internally, I am just chalking this up to, "Two players have a difference of opinion."
I can confirm that something seems to be bugged about the interaction between Raise Barricade and Jump.

I just tested it out in the Spar Chamber and none of my units with Jump (my Swashbuckler, Fan, Toro, Goro) could jump over the 5 obstacles summoned by my other character. So at least in the Spar Chamber and housing arenas, Jump is not working vs the Raise Barricade power.

I can't test this out in a ranked match without putting myself at a disadvantage, so can't confirm whether anecorbie's claims of it working in 1v1 ranked matches is true or not.

Developer
Chrissy Th'Blesser on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Ok, now I am confused. How is Raise Barricades a defense against swashbucklers if they can just jump over them?
You can control where they are permitted to stand in order to attack.

(And of course not all of the companions on a Swash's team will necessarily have Jump.)

I can confirm that something seems to be bugged about the interaction between Raise Barricade and Jump.

Definitely odd. Nothing on the battleboard would affect that (that I can think of). Can you confirm that you are using the same character and that the power is summoning the same prop in all cases?

Ensign
Nov 29, 2013
18
I tested it yesterday with Quentin and neither my companions (goro,fan) could Jump them and neither could I

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Chrissy Th'Blesser on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Ok, now I am confused. How is Raise Barricades a defense against swashbucklers if they can just jump over them?
I'm guessing, Chrissy, that the Swashbuckler can't jump the Barricade, if there is no spot to land on the opposite side of the Barricade. So, positioning of your pirate and crew, and not allowing the buckler to jump and land in a free spot would provide defensive measures. Also, keeping positioning with the Barricade sandwiched between the SB and your units, and not allowing that SB to jump, means they can't attack your most vital crew member(s).

So, using positioning, the Barricades as choke points or 'funnels' and placing 'sacrificial crew members', or ones that can knock SB's (or other hidden units) out of hidden and also force them into triggering and using up chains (via their own Epics), is where the defense against a Swashbuckler would come into play. Plus, if a SB or hidden unit is 'forced' into going the 'long way' around to reach their targets or waiting it out, they may have to give up an extra turn of hidden that may have been used to buff or shield. If their is only one way in and it is blocked by that 'strategic pawn' the SB may wait out turns to buff/shield, but that will allow you to do the same for your pirate and crew.

But these are just my takes on it, and I am in no way that experienced with any of this. Just seems to be a benefit and natural defense, stemming from Raise Barricades. Combining it with the right set up and positioning of buffed/shielded units, with FS3/QD3 and forcing that SB (& hidden crew) into a certain direction of attack and course of action, seems like it would be a good defensive strategy against a SB.

So maybe it's not the actual Barricade itself that defends against the Swash, but all of the other strategy combined with the Barricade that does the trick.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
You can control where they are permitted to stand in order to attack.

(And of course not all of the companions on a Swash's team will necessarily have Jump.)

I can confirm that something seems to be bugged about the interaction between Raise Barricade and Jump.

Definitely odd. Nothing on the battleboard would affect that (that I can think of). Can you confirm that you are using the same character and that the power is summoning the same prop in all cases?
I tested it a few times using my level 65 Witchdoctor vs my level 65 Swashbuckler who brought Goronado, Fan and Toro with him and every time none of my Swashbuckler's units could jump over the obstacles.

It summons the 5 metal-looking gate things with 1270 or so health. It summons the 5 props in all cases I tested and they can't be jumped over.

I can test it out using other combination of classes if you need more information/confirmation. Just can't test it in a ranked match, so my only feedback is from the spar chamber/housing arenas.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6204
Thanks Ratbeard and Valkoor. I understand it better now, whether they can jump it or not.

Developer
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
I'm guessing, Chrissy, that the Swashbuckler can't jump the Barricade, if there is no spot to land on the opposite side of the Barricade. So, positioning of your pirate and crew, and not allowing the buckler to jump and land in a free spot would provide defensive measures. Also, keeping positioning with the Barricade sandwiched between the SB and your units, and not allowing that SB to jump, means they can't attack your most vital crew member(s).

So, using positioning, the Barricades as choke points or 'funnels' and placing 'sacrificial crew members', or ones that can knock SB's (or other hidden units) out of hidden and also force them into triggering and using up chains (via their own Epics), is where the defense against a Swashbuckler would come into play. Plus, if a SB or hidden unit is 'forced' into going the 'long way' around to reach their targets or waiting it out, they may have to give up an extra turn of hidden that may have been used to buff or shield. If their is only one way in and it is blocked by that 'strategic pawn' the SB may wait out turns to buff/shield, but that will allow you to do the same for your pirate and crew.

But these are just my takes on it, and I am in no way that experienced with any of this. Just seems to be a benefit and natural defense, stemming from Raise Barricades. Combining it with the right set up and positioning of buffed/shielded units, with FS3/QD3 and forcing that SB (& hidden crew) into a certain direction of attack and course of action, seems like it would be a good defensive strategy against a SB.

So maybe it's not the actual Barricade itself that defends against the Swash, but all of the other strategy combined with the Barricade that does the trick.
The swashbuckler's advantage is choosing where and when he is going to strike-- and, in all likelihood, "taking the first piece."

Every piece of the anti-Hide arsenal is designed to chip away at that advantage-- not "consistently or directly counter" it, but to reduce it by degrees.

Developer
Thanks for the feedback, Alex.

I can't imagine that the power would behave differently in one environment or another, but stranger things have happened.
It sounds like there's anecdotal evidence that you CAN jump over the obstacles in ranked PvP so I'd be prepared for it (aka don't let your non-ranked observations lull you into a false sense of security...)Swashbucklers should be able to jump over obstacles; that is the intended design.

Bosun
Dec 24, 2009
394
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Nothing was changed on Raise Barricade other than its area of effect.

But, it should be noted that Raise Barricade summons a different kind of prop as you level up-- it may be that some props are set one way, or the other. For example, maybe you can jump over the metal shield version but not the spiky logs version.

In that case, that would be a bug-- it should be standardized (and it would be resolved in favor of Jump.)

I assume that Swashbucklers can jump over obstacles. That is the intended design; and yes, when I talk about using Raise Barricade as a defense against swashbucklers, I assume Jump is in the mix.

Until I actually see a bug report internally, I am just chalking this up to, "Two players have a difference of opinion."
If the result should be that all barricades can/can't be jumped over, then I can go into PvP with my level 29 musket. I only use him as a pirate I used with my brother(who hasn't played in a while) so I don't have to worry about my PvP ranking.

@Anecorbie We could meet up with my musket in game and test it at a house, the Spar Chamber, or both. If you want to do this, I get out early from school tomorrow. If not then, Saturday would be good. Would 2:00 p.m. Pacific Time (so 4:00 p.m. central time I believe) work for you? Vadima realm in the Spar Chamber is the meeting place I had in mind.

Fearless Dolan Grant lvl65
Obnoxious Blaze Dove lvl29

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, Alex.

I can't imagine that the power would behave differently in one environment or another, but stranger things have happened.
It sounds like there's anecdotal evidence that you CAN jump over the obstacles in ranked PvP so I'd be prepared for it (aka don't let your non-ranked observations lull you into a false sense of security...)Swashbucklers should be able to jump over obstacles; that is the intended design.
There have been multiple reports of Jump not working over the Barricades in ranked PvP either. Is definitely worth taking a look if you can Ratbeard. Would be weird if it only works some times and other times it doesn't work.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10123
FireMorgan13 on Aug 20, 2015 wrote:
If the result should be that all barricades can/can't be jumped over, then I can go into PvP with my level 29 musket. I only use him as a pirate I used with my brother(who hasn't played in a while) so I don't have to worry about my PvP ranking.

@Anecorbie We could meet up with my musket in game and test it at a house, the Spar Chamber, or both. If you want to do this, I get out early from school tomorrow. If not then, Saturday would be good. Would 2:00 p.m. Pacific Time (so 4:00 p.m. central time I believe) work for you? Vadima realm in the Spar Chamber is the meeting place I had in mind.

Fearless Dolan Grant lvl65
Obnoxious Blaze Dove lvl29
I know now that Raise Barricade can block a swashbuckler in a house or Spar Chamber arena, as I have tested it recently with my lvl 65 musket vs one of my max lvl swash friends.
However, I believe you guys should try it in an actual ranked match before you tout this as a "sure" defense, since I'm not the only one who has experienced jumping over a barricade.
Battle test any strategy before making any claims of defense, what you've done was what is considered a test in a "controlled" environment, you must now test in actual battle situations - before you can make any claims of success.
P.S. and if this is a glitch ( as it seems to be ) this defense is actually worthless. Unless you change the placement of the barricade - like place it right up against your vulnerable ranged companions.
Of course, if you do that, you've also blocked off a target area as they won't be able to see around the barrier itself.
Esperanza Devereaux lvl 65 Gladiator
Black Morgan Moone lvl 65
I would like to thank Misty Jackson for being the guinea pig in my house arena experiment.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
I have proof that barricade cannot be jumped over. Go to 6:38 in he video of the attached thread: PvP

Had i been able to jump over barricade i would have had movement options to the right of the barricade as a swash w/ 6 movement. However-no movement option was there indicating that i could not jump over said barrier.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10123
Eric Stormbringer on Aug 20, 2015 wrote:
I have proof that barricade cannot be jumped over. Go to 6:38 in he video of the attached thread: PvP

Had i been able to jump over barricade i would have had movement options to the right of the barricade as a swash w/ 6 movement. However-no movement option was there indicating that i could not jump over said barrier.
Give this information to Ratbeard. I'm leaving this argument behind ( everyone is acting as if I smashed their new toy ).

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Aug 19, 2015 wrote:
The swashbuckler's advantage is choosing where and when he is going to strike-- and, in all likelihood, "taking the first piece."

Every piece of the anti-Hide arsenal is designed to chip away at that advantage-- not "consistently or directly counter" it, but to reduce it by degrees.
I understand completely.

I actually rather like the culmination of events being what attempts to wear down the SB's (or any class) battle prowess and hide, versus a 'one-n-done' kind of supposed counter. It makes it interesting and gives all players the equal chance and opportunity to make the right and or wrong move or set of moves, while thinking ahead, without there being a set in stone counter-- becomes a thinking man's/woman's game that way.

And besides, as you well know, taking that first piece isn't a guarantee of anything positive. At my house, everytime I take the first piece-- and I'm talking about cakes and pies and steak here-- I somehow end up on the losing side of things. But the same could be said in chess and tactical competitions. Sacrificing that first piece can often yield a greater reward.

Still hard to pass up that fresh, steaming hot, apple pie though...gets me in trouble each and everytime.

Commodore
May 31, 2009
888
anecorbie on Aug 20, 2015 wrote:
I know now that Raise Barricade can block a swashbuckler in a house or Spar Chamber arena, as I have tested it recently with my lvl 65 musket vs one of my max lvl swash friends.
However, I believe you guys should try it in an actual ranked match before you tout this as a "sure" defense, since I'm not the only one who has experienced jumping over a barricade.
Battle test any strategy before making any claims of defense, what you've done was what is considered a test in a "controlled" environment, you must now test in actual battle situations - before you can make any claims of success.
P.S. and if this is a glitch ( as it seems to be ) this defense is actually worthless. Unless you change the placement of the barricade - like place it right up against your vulnerable ranged companions.
Of course, if you do that, you've also blocked off a target area as they won't be able to see around the barrier itself.
Esperanza Devereaux lvl 65 Gladiator
Black Morgan Moone lvl 65
I would like to thank Misty Jackson for being the guinea pig in my house arena experiment.
So do I get any celery for that?