Follow important game updates on Twitter @Pirate101 and @KI_Alerts, and Facebook!

A Frank Discussion on 'Hide'

AuthorMessage
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
I frankly hate this idea. Are there any powers that can erase another class's buffs? Can I have something to delete Leviathan or Valor's Armor? How about Greater Juju? Unless you want to address all class's buffs, I earnestly ask you to leave mine alone!
Hey, I never said it was a good idea or one that would work-- just some stormin' of the brain & more or less done in creative fun.

I'm actually surprised that you hate it or at least weren't just indifferent to it, being that you are primarily a PvE player & don't seem to partake into too much of the 'heated & diehard' PvP aspects. It quite frankly is a bad idea overall, but still it's a possible starting ground (or at least an avenue to explore). As noted, this idea & gear would not currently affect PvE play whatsoever, seeing as no AI could equip the gear/power at present and disrupt your PvE experience. It was just meant to be a way to 'tone down' some of the 'Black Fog/Hide' is OP ("there is no true counter") type of hub-bub floating around the Spiral and offer up alternative notions. I typically don't, and can't, hate something that, especially as a PvE player, has no affect on me and my PvE play.

If gear/powers like this were ever added, it will require tremendous farming/Scrip collecting to acquire & could be equipped/unequipped for tournaments & depending upon pre-PvP battle agreements. I hear your argument on not being able to 'nullify' Levi's & Juju, but let's face it-- they are nowhere near as powerful & potent as a 1st turn Black Fog. Black Fog is a 1st turn tidechanger, unlike the other powers. I can Levi's in the 1st turn & yes protect my pirate, & a SB could, in essence, use Black Fogged crewmembers to wipe out a couple companions (yes, some of my crew's talents can help a bit). Levi's or Juju can't & doesn't have that effect, as a 1st turn power-- even other classes Level 65 class only powers can't and don't have this effect, from a 1st turn and without penalty perspective. And just as a Levi's is a counter to a 'Hide', a 'Hide' can also be a counter to a Levi's. Use a 'Hide' to get back that 'halved damage' & return your attack to full damage. Sure, it takes away the 2x damage but it's a 1-time counter, nonetheless.

(cont...)

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
I frankly hate this idea. Are there any powers that can erase another class's buffs? Can I have something to delete Leviathan or Valor's Armor? How about Greater Juju? Unless you want to address all class's buffs, I earnestly ask you to leave mine alone!
(...from cont.)

The idea was more in fun & could possibly add tons of new strategy. The whole 3 tier idea was to add some 'neat and fun factor' to powers and what shows up on screen. When 1 of the 3 tiers of a Crit. Hit show up, 1 player says "Sweeet", the other says "Noooo". This is fun and I love seeing those words pop up-- unless I'm on the 'bad' side of them. If a power had 3 tiers & the words displayed on screen, it would add another "Sweeet/Nooo" element to battle-- in 3 levels of volume.

Gear would have to be equipped to help counter it. By having a penalty attached to the player who used it, it would add more chess-like strategies to decide "is this worth it, at this time?"

Consider my idea as more of a way to introduce new chess-like strategies and variety to battles, by providing more levels to single powers/buffs. The idea doesn't have to stop with gear to 'shut down a SB and it's buffs'. It could certainly apply to helping counter and 'shut down' other classes as well-- but by all being done without adding programming that affects and changes a class overall.

And Dante, I agree with you about it causing you to have to switch up and possibly unequip a certain piece of valuable gear....but isn't that what makes things exciting. Having new elements of strategies to combat certain foes/conditions can spice things up a bit. As with chess, you have a risk/reward element to every move you make. I may give up this valuable piece/position but I may gain much more. A higher risk and alternatepath can possibly breed a greater reward, but it can also spell D-O-O-O-O-O-M. More gear options and risks/rewards/penalties/advantages gained/lost from them would work the brain a bit more....and mine's sometimes lazy and out of shape.

But thank you both for your opinions and for the discussion. Sometimes this is what sparks an idea from the developers or at least ignites unthought of sparks. I'll try to keep the brain a stormin'....good or bad, love or hate.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
anecorbie on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
At least you are making an effort to find a workable solution, all I've ever heard from the pvp-ers is "nerf 'hide" without a single helpful suggestion.
BTW Black Fog isn't a team hide, it's a group hide; you have to be standing next to me to take advantage of it. a team hide would hide the entire team.
Oh and yeah, you are correct and I understand and know what Black Fog is and that it's a group and/or crew 'Hide'. But the majority of times when solo or 1 vs. 1 (and justifiably so), it is used in the 1st turn of battle and that's why I referred to it as a 'team hide'-- because your crew is adjacent to your pirate, in the that 1st turn...when it is most beneficial to use it-- no movement required or needed.

Of course in PvP with other players on your side/team, it won't hide the entire team of players and their crews, just the ones adjacent to your pirate. I was just referencing Black Fog as a 1 vs. 1, class vs. class 1st turn power-- when it more than likely most gets used, as a solo PvE or solo PvP power.

Developer
Without trying to dampen your interesting discussion too much:

  1. I'm not a fan of creating specific counters for specific powers,
  2. I'm not a fan of balancing PvP at the expense of PvE,
  3. I am not even convinced that Hide is a problem in the first place.


But I do believe that there is enough time and distance now for some objective discussions on Hide (as opposed to the hair-on-fire reaction when I removed the AoE counter)-- so continued, reasonable discussion is still very much of interest to me.

Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Apr 17, 2015 wrote:
Without trying to dampen your interesting discussion too much:

  1. I'm not a fan of creating specific counters for specific powers,
  2. I'm not a fan of balancing PvP at the expense of PvE,
  3. I am not even convinced that Hide is a problem in the first place.


But I do believe that there is enough time and distance now for some objective discussions on Hide (as opposed to the hair-on-fire reaction when I removed the AoE counter)-- so continued, reasonable discussion is still very much of interest to me.
I need a towel due to all this dampening...I kid, I kid.

That's a much appreciated reply and well received one Ratbeard. I suppose my own latest posts are actually in the wrong thread, seeing as they are more along the lines of introducing and throwing out ideas (which should probably be thrown out themselves) to spice up gameplay, power usage and possibly adding 'twists' on powers. Those definitely aren't directly related to there being a problem with Hide.

I personally don't really believe that there should be a specific counter for anything in the game and that the more variables that come into play in regards to strategy and possible counters, is what creates a recipe for exciting gameplay and combat. If everything had specific counters and repetitive "you did that/so I have to do this" type of actions, well that would be pretty boring.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with Hide one bit. I just find discussion and brain storming (with thoughts of positively adding to the game in mind) pretty, dare I say, interesting. I enjoy all the ideas and thoughts that other players come up with, as I'm sure you developers do. I don't PvP at all and so far only play, primarily solo, as a Buccaneer-- so Black Fog and Hide certainly don't affect my gameplay...at least not in a negative way.

I certainly respect and appreciate your PvE first stand and am quite grateful for it actually!!

As a side note...should we be on the lookout for PvE enemies, as in mob foes and/or bosses, that possess Hide and even Black Fog capabilities? If so, that's awesome! Pretty sure this will get a 'REDACTED' reply, but just thought I'd ask in case the answer would be more of a 'IT'S POSSIBLE'-- you know, got my rod and lures, so just trying to reel something in.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and add your thoughts.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
Ratbeard on Apr 17, 2015 wrote:
Without trying to dampen your interesting discussion too much:

  1. I'm not a fan of creating specific counters for specific powers,
  2. I'm not a fan of balancing PvP at the expense of PvE,
  3. I am not even convinced that Hide is a problem in the first place.


But I do believe that there is enough time and distance now for some objective discussions on Hide (as opposed to the hair-on-fire reaction when I removed the AoE counter)-- so continued, reasonable discussion is still very much of interest to me.
Thank you for your reply, Ratbeard, it's reassuring.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Apr 17, 2015 wrote:
I need a towel due to all this dampening...I kid, I kid.

That's a much appreciated reply and well received one Ratbeard. I suppose my own latest posts are actually in the wrong thread, seeing as they are more along the lines of introducing and throwing out ideas (which should probably be thrown out themselves) to spice up gameplay, power usage and possibly adding 'twists' on powers. Those definitely aren't directly related to there being a problem with Hide.

I personally don't really believe that there should be a specific counter for anything in the game and that the more variables that come into play in regards to strategy and possible counters, is what creates a recipe for exciting gameplay and combat. If everything had specific counters and repetitive "you did that/so I have to do this" type of actions, well that would be pretty boring.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with Hide one bit. I just find discussion and brain storming (with thoughts of positively adding to the game in mind) pretty, dare I say, interesting. I enjoy all the ideas and thoughts that other players come up with, as I'm sure you developers do. I don't PvP at all and so far only play, primarily solo, as a Buccaneer-- so Black Fog and Hide certainly don't affect my gameplay...at least not in a negative way.

I certainly respect and appreciate your PvE first stand and am quite grateful for it actually!!

As a side note...should we be on the lookout for PvE enemies, as in mob foes and/or bosses, that possess Hide and even Black Fog capabilities? If so, that's awesome! Pretty sure this will get a 'REDACTED' reply, but just thought I'd ask in case the answer would be more of a 'IT'S POSSIBLE'-- you know, got my rod and lures, so just trying to reel something in.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and add your thoughts.
Valkoor, there is already an enemy in pve who uses Black Fog, Jonathan the buckler in the fight with the Nefarious Five. I've seen him go hidden, when he is a) unable to move due to glacier or ice wave, or b) when he can't find a convenient target.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, from a PVP perspective, I dont't think we need to change anything with hide itself, but regarding black fog would you consider reducing it to 3 rounds?
For other classes, the strongest buffs now last only 3 rounds, so it might make sense to do the same with black fog. At 3 turns, it is enough to be very useful in PVE, and in PVP, it would still be very strong but make it a little more balanced for those who are not swashbucklers.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
Let's turn from this debate on whether or not Hide needs to be nerfed to discussing tactics. When facing a hidden opponent, you have a few options:
1. Go defensive - start throwing up shields, use buffs to enhance abilities. Start laying down bombs, traps, barriers and flames. Use a hide yourself or have a SB hide you. Ice wave to halt them in their tracks gives you more time to prepare; likewise the glacier doubloon.
2. Take the initiative, go offensive - hit them with AoEs, use summons. Moo's Imperial Robes with the terror-cotta warriors and the Nefarious Staff is best. Use automatic talent attacks to pop them out of hide. The fire wave attack from Moo's Imperial Crown not only does damage but also prevents visibility in targeting.
The use of Blood Flames in both defensive and offensive tactics - the hidden opponent now has two options, run through and sustain damage or extinguish them with an AoE attack; win/win for you either way. Attacking the flames exposes the hidden attacker.
Points to consider: Is the hidden attacker using Nefarious Knives or gear that grants the flanking talent? Are they using Fan Flanders ( flanking talent ) or Sarah Steele ( repel boarders )? Any Musketeers in hide, do they have over watch?
Is there a Privateer on the team and did they just use Dress the Line ( gives repel boarders )? Did some use a Jackrabbit Juju doubloon?
You see what I'm getting to here, use this to your advantage, and I don't see why a hidden opponent should be any trouble to you.

Ensign
Jun 13, 2009
28
DuranteRamses87 on Apr 3, 2015 wrote:
Actually I'm tired of reading posts about nerfing any powers or enemies at all no matter what the job class. Also about making certain dungeons shorter. Also I'm tired of everything involving powers revolving around its use for pvp. Is it only offensive now because its your main character that's under fire?

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
I agree about nerfing things because of pvp since pvp is not even a rated part of the game! PVP should not weigh at all in determining anything in the game until it's officially something we need to be concerned about. For now it's just a fun little side game that some people take way to seriously.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 18, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, from a PVP perspective, I dont't think we need to change anything with hide itself, but regarding black fog would you consider reducing it to 3 rounds?
For other classes, the strongest buffs now last only 3 rounds, so it might make sense to do the same with black fog. At 3 turns, it is enough to be very useful in PVE, and in PVP, it would still be very strong but make it a little more balanced for those who are not swashbucklers.
There are still privateer buffs that last five rounds, so why not Black Fog?

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
I frankly hate this idea. Are there any powers that can erase another class's buffs? Can I have something to delete Leviathan or Valor's Armor? How about Greater Juju? Unless you want to address all class's buffs, I earnestly ask you to leave mine alone!
There already is something that removes all class buffs. Purge Magic. Just saying.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 17, 2015 wrote:
Valkoor, there is already an enemy in pve who uses Black Fog, Jonathan the buckler in the fight with the Nefarious Five. I've seen him go hidden, when he is a) unable to move due to glacier or ice wave, or b) when he can't find a convenient target.
But really, He doesn't. He uses Walk in Darkness with a slightly different animation, because the AI cannot use it strategically. He only does it when he cannot move, meaning it is almost impossible for him to black fog one of the other Nefarious.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 16, 2015 wrote:
I frankly hate this idea. Are there any powers that can erase another class's buffs? Can I have something to delete Leviathan or Valor's Armor? How about Greater Juju? Unless you want to address all class's buffs, I earnestly ask you to leave mine alone!
There are not any powers, but there is an epic made specifically to combat hide. Scent. Note: I really wish we could get that epic as part of an item.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
Voodoo Cornelius on Apr 19, 2015 wrote:
There are not any powers, but there is an epic made specifically to combat hide. Scent. Note: I really wish we could get that epic as part of an item.
Although I'm not thrilled by this ( gee, wonder why? ) It would be a workable solution and make using a hide even more challenging. I would have to keep a watch and look out for opponents with that talent.
On the sixth floor in Moo's Tower the ancient corrupted foo lion has scent, and it works! I never use hide in there anymore, very silly to use a round to apply a power when it will be removed as soon as I get close to the enemy.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 19, 2015 wrote:
Although I'm not thrilled by this ( gee, wonder why? ) It would be a workable solution and make using a hide even more challenging. I would have to keep a watch and look out for opponents with that talent.
On the sixth floor in Moo's Tower the ancient corrupted foo lion has scent, and it works! I never use hide in there anymore, very silly to use a round to apply a power when it will be removed as soon as I get close to the enemy.
I think that this was discussed when the hidden update was in test. Initially, fin's goggles gave scent, but this was changed, because it would effectively make the character who is using it immune to hidden. Ratbeard removed it based on feedback provided on these boards.

I am a witchdoctor, and do a lot of PVP (mostly 1v1) and PVE. After reading this discussion, I still don't think hide itself is OP or needs to be changed. I still think that changing black fog to 3 turns would be a good idea, because it would make its use a little more strategic from the part of the swashbuckler, still be very dangerous for the opponent, but give the opponent more of a chance to deal with all those hidden units

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
826
anecorbie on Apr 19, 2015 wrote:
There are still privateer buffs that last five rounds, so why not Black Fog?
he said BEST buffs, zeal is 3 rounds, black fog is 5

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 20, 2015 wrote:
I think that this was discussed when the hidden update was in test. Initially, fin's goggles gave scent, but this was changed, because it would effectively make the character who is using it immune to hidden. Ratbeard removed it based on feedback provided on these boards.

I am a witchdoctor, and do a lot of PVP (mostly 1v1) and PVE. After reading this discussion, I still don't think hide itself is OP or needs to be changed. I still think that changing black fog to 3 turns would be a good idea, because it would make its use a little more strategic from the part of the swashbuckler, still be very dangerous for the opponent, but give the opponent more of a chance to deal with all those hidden units
It takes more than 3 rounds even with my speed to reach the other side of Brawl Hall, if I'm avoiding bombs and flames.
Example I use Black Fog 1st round, I move to a position on the board ( half way if there are no bombs or traps in my way ), 2nd round. If I'm to avoid bombs and flames, I move carefully into a position to attack. I might be able to attack this round or not 3rd round and my hide is gone.
5 rounds of hide are needed.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 20, 2015 wrote:
It takes more than 3 rounds even with my speed to reach the other side of Brawl Hall, if I'm avoiding bombs and flames.
Example I use Black Fog 1st round, I move to a position on the board ( half way if there are no bombs or traps in my way ), 2nd round. If I'm to avoid bombs and flames, I move carefully into a position to attack. I might be able to attack this round or not 3rd round and my hide is gone.
5 rounds of hide are needed.
This is actually the whole point of my suggestion, it is not necessary to let the swashbuckler use black fog in the first round and then be able to move to the other side of the hall while hidden without fail. By making it 3 rounds like other strong buffs, it adds a little strategy and makes timing important.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
zuto4011a on Apr 20, 2015 wrote:
he said BEST buffs, zeal is 3 rounds, black fog is 5
Your Zeal can be stacked with other buffs, I can't stack hide, poisons or back stab/assassin's strike, so how is that even comparable?

Ensign
Jun 13, 2014
48
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 18, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, from a PVP perspective, I dont't think we need to change anything with hide itself, but regarding black fog would you consider reducing it to 3 rounds?
For other classes, the strongest buffs now last only 3 rounds, so it might make sense to do the same with black fog. At 3 turns, it is enough to be very useful in PVE, and in PVP, it would still be very strong but make it a little more balanced for those who are not swashbucklers.
Do the other buffs go away when you use them?

Ensign
Jun 13, 2014
48
You cannot really compare Black Fog to other buffs. To put it simply- it goes away once you attack- no other buff does that.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Jack Harkness on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
You cannot really compare Black Fog to other buffs. To put it simply- it goes away once you attack- no other buff does that.
Thats true, but no other buff compares to black fog in terms of effectiveness and damage. Again, I think that making it 3 turns would make things more balanced, a buckler can still use it, they would just have to move their team up a few spaces in PVP, instead of using it right away.

Actually, my main point in giving this suggestion about reducing it to 3 turns is to hopefully get Ratbeard's opinion on it. I don't blame swashbucklers for not wanting it to be changed, because its so powerful, and I don't think anyone is being convinced by others' suggestions.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9325
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
Thats true, but no other buff compares to black fog in terms of effectiveness and damage. Again, I think that making it 3 turns would make things more balanced, a buckler can still use it, they would just have to move their team up a few spaces in PVP, instead of using it right away.

Actually, my main point in giving this suggestion about reducing it to 3 turns is to hopefully get Ratbeard's opinion on it. I don't blame swashbucklers for not wanting it to be changed, because its so powerful, and I don't think anyone is being convinced by others' suggestions.
Use Black Fog the first round or not at all, it is meant to hide you and you crew. why have them stand around you throughout the match just so you can 'more strategically use it?' Using it the first round is and always will be strategic.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
Use Black Fog the first round or not at all, it is meant to hide you and you crew. why have them stand around you throughout the match just so you can 'more strategically use it?' Using it the first round is and always will be strategic.
It is right now because there is no reason not to use it in the first round. Because you know that you can reach the enemy while hidden and probably wipe them out, unless they are a musket with many bombs, or someone with hard to get gear. So there basically is no strategy to it right now, its very easy, just go hidden in the first round with black fog, move up, and most of the time wipe out the other team without difficulty.

On the other hand, you could just separate, come together again a few spaces further down the board, and then use it if it lasts for 3 rounds. It would be a bit more of a challenge for the swashbuckler, because the enemy might actually be able to attack before it can be used. So if you want to leave it as is, where you are guaranteed to have hidden attacks on the opponent, that's fine, but from the other perspective, it would at least give the opponent a chance to survive, especially in a 1v1 or 2v2 pvp match.