Why the major differences?

AuthorMessage
Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Repel Boarders = 1/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Over Watch = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
True Grit = 1/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Return Fire = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Riposte = of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Vengeance = 1/2 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
First Strike = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Flanking = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Cross Fire = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Mojo Echo = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Blade Storm = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Double Tap = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!

I know old Rat Beard states, that some attacks are duds, but this is not the case, not by armor, not by resistance, this is pure observation and calculation over a year of playing this game.

I know at one time, one major person told me some attacks are not meant to be full strength, but this ratio does not make any sense. Can someone that is intelligent enough please make sense of this?

Especially when hidden, Repel Boarders being only 1/3 attack power is a total waste of the hide as it still activates on enemies drawing near.

Hoping to actually hear something,

DarthJT

Community Leader
I can not answer your inquiry. I have not paid that close of attention
But, i'll try to be a bit more observant, maybe take some notes.

I have definately noticed variances in attacks.

Dr Zeppers (aka Silent Sam Stern)
Piratey parodies I like to make.
I be a crazy pirate for goodness sake!
Artist & Admin of Skull Island TV
Gunner's Mate
Apr 26, 2009
270
Hey Darth I think it matters on how often the epic triggers. For example first strike activates every round, but a dodge isnt as common so riposte and return fire do more damage.

Gunner's Mate
Oct 22, 2011
210
Well, I feel Repel Boarders isn't worth getting for Privateers and wish I hadn't trained it. Originally, I was thinking "woohoo, I finally get some sort of attack", but alas, the damage it does is not worth the training to have it. I will not be training the L65 epic Repel Boarders.

Depending on which weapon I use, say my 216-316, then I hit Repel for an average of 88 damage for normal hitting. If I switch weapons to my 352-452, then Repel damage is about 99-105 for normal.

Sorry, but not worth it in my opinion, especially since it deactivates my 'walk in shadows'.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
211
Darth JT on Jun 3, 2013 wrote:
Repel Boarders = 1/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Over Watch = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
True Grit = 1/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Return Fire = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Riposte = of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Vengeance = 1/2 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
First Strike = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Flanking = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Cross Fire = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Mojo Echo = 2/3 of normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Blade Storm = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!
Double Tap = normal attack unless super, epic, or mega!

I know old Rat Beard states, that some attacks are duds, but this is not the case, not by armor, not by resistance, this is pure observation and calculation over a year of playing this game.

I know at one time, one major person told me some attacks are not meant to be full strength, but this ratio does not make any sense. Can someone that is intelligent enough please make sense of this?

Especially when hidden, Repel Boarders being only 1/3 attack power is a total waste of the hide as it still activates on enemies drawing near.

Hoping to actually hear something,

DarthJT
That's weird, I have completely different observations:

Repel Boarders, Overwatch, Flanking, Cross Fire- 0.5x of normal attack
Riposte-1.5x normal attack
True Grit, Vengeance, Echo, Double Tap, Bladestorm-1x normal attack

I haven't paid much attention to return fire so no commnt on that one.

Developer
More than half of your data points are incorrect. You can either go back to the drawing board or perhaps touch base with other players who have a more accurate picture.

Assuming your question isn't, "Why is Repel Boarders so low?" (because it isn't) and your question is "Why do some epics do different damage than others?" the answer is, "Because some epic talents have more opportunities to kick off than others."

Expected damage is equalized against the likelihood that the talent will kick off.

Of course, the best players will find ways to make their epic talents kick off "more than expected" so they will get a better return on investment than players who just muddle along.

Bosun
May 10, 2010
396
Ratbeard on Jun 4, 2013 wrote:
More than half of your data points are incorrect. You can either go back to the drawing board or perhaps touch base with other players who have a more accurate picture.

Assuming your question isn't, "Why is Repel Boarders so low?" (because it isn't) and your question is "Why do some epics do different damage than others?" the answer is, "Because some epic talents have more opportunities to kick off than others."

Expected damage is equalized against the likelihood that the talent will kick off.

Of course, the best players will find ways to make their epic talents kick off "more than expected" so they will get a better return on investment than players who just muddle along.
I am not stating exact figures RatBeard, I am not a developer, I am a player and I am stating my observations of over a year of game play. I estimate on average and give rounded figures.

I am not the only one though, that has noticed significant differences in attacks. One even stated,

"Something that you may have noticed is not all attacks are equal. Attacks triggered by an epic may deal different damage than a normal attack based on what epic triggered it."

Higher damage- Responsive epics triggered by an enemy attack
Normal damage- Normal attacks, multi-hit epics
Lower damage- Preemptive and movement based talents

Nesogra gets credit for his post: http://pirate101.centralforums.com/forums/showthread.php?26561-Micromania&highlight=Micromania

I am not saying I want all attacks equal, but the differences in some are quite significant and I would like to know why. Classes are not equal and if these differences are put in equalize, then more factors need to be considered.

Prime Example: Musketeer's have a very high amount of Accuracy, very difficult to dodge, therefore Return Fire should do massive damage or even more damage than Riposte, since it is not as difficult to dodge a melee attack. Yes, the two are different as 1 is melee and the other is ranged.

Vengeance, last time I checked did less damage than first strike or riposte, but you would think it would do just as much, if not more, definitely more damage than first strike should.

I can understand Repel Boarders and OverWatch not doing as much damage, but to remove hiding? Also, why so much less damage than cheap shot, or any other attack?

I know armor is a factor and so is resistance, but how much armor & resistance do mobs get? Do they get both? Are they in the 100s?

I have seen a Repel Boarders on my friend Brynn's Privateer, when she had 310 to 420 something damage boosting and one time she did 42, others she is doing 68. She typically does in the 60s, I don't care how much armor mobs have, no way should she be doing that little damage and no way should she be doing it consistently. Nobody can hit a dud that much!

All I am saying, is please look into it, because something is wrong with the math, that much is obvious!

DarthJT

Developer
No attack does less than 2/3 damage and some (like Riposte) do significantly more than 100% damage.

Your observations are incorrect. This is not an indictment-- I appreciate players who want to know the workings of the system. But there are a lot of moving parts to combat, countless variations in attacker and defender, so it is impossible for me to tell you with any certainty why your observations are incorrect.

Now to answer your question (again):

YES, there are variations in the damage done by attacks. The reason for this variation is to account for the (expected) differences in the trigger rate.

NO, the damage variations on the attacks themselves are not as dramatic as you have observed.

YES, the final damage variations can be quite dramatic for all the reasons you stated: armor, resist, stats, and the damage roll.

My own anecdotal experience (quite opposite yours) is that the talents are working as expected. I've looked into it as requested (in the game code) and everything appears in order.

Community Leader
Ratbeard on Jun 6, 2013 wrote:
No attack does less than 2/3 damage and some (like Riposte) do significantly more than 100% damage.

Your observations are incorrect. This is not an indictment-- I appreciate players who want to know the workings of the system. But there are a lot of moving parts to combat, countless variations in attacker and defender, so it is impossible for me to tell you with any certainty why your observations are incorrect.

Now to answer your question (again):

YES, there are variations in the damage done by attacks. The reason for this variation is to account for the (expected) differences in the trigger rate.

NO, the damage variations on the attacks themselves are not as dramatic as you have observed.

YES, the final damage variations can be quite dramatic for all the reasons you stated: armor, resist, stats, and the damage roll.

My own anecdotal experience (quite opposite yours) is that the talents are working as expected. I've looked into it as requested (in the game code) and everything appears in order.
Ratbeard,

A curiousity I have... do you play solo, or are you questing with other developers/a group.
(My experience is that the game experience varies greatly between the two approachs)

To say "No attack does less than 2/3 damage", seems quite disconnected from game experience.
I play with a group, and we know and love our boosts, and despite boosts/buffs, we often get less than 2/3rds of the possible damage our pirates reflect.

If its a matter of a mobs armor/resistance, how can we identify these things in order to strategize our battles?

The more difficult the game is, the more information we need to be able to assimilate to be successful. If such information is not made available, then the game suffers as the players lack the tools for success.

Not to mention a vast number of epics that are not given to pirates, that are being given to mobs, making much impossible to anticipate.

Dr Zeppers (aka Silent Sam Stern)
Piratey parodies I like to make.
I be a crazy pirate for goodness sake!
Artist & Admin of Skull Island TV
Pirate Overlord
Mar 10, 2009
6079
Darth, perhaps you could record some of the situations you are experiencing and email it to Ratbeard then he can see what you are seeing. I know security software may block this but how about you posting this video on youtobe and then emailing Ratbeard with the link or the information on how to find your video and then he can see what you are seeing.

Developer
Do you play solo, or with a group?

Both.

To say No attack does less than 2/3 damage seems disconnected from game experience.

I'll clarify again: The base attacks (that is, the damage value which is the starting point of the calculation) may fall as low as 2/3 damage. Due to a variety of external factors that do NOT include variation between the epics, the final damage may fall below that range. Just as, due to a variety of reasons that do NOT include variation between the epics, the damage may be higher than expected.

Your explicit question was, "Why does Repel Boarders do 1/3 damage when Epic X does 100% damage" and my answer to that explicit question remains: Your data is incorrect.

Your larger question, which I will paraphrase for you, is, "Why is there variation between epics?" and the answer remains, "Because some epics trigger more often than others."

The external factors that modify damage are applied equally regardless of epic talent, and are neither part of your question nor part of the balancing of epics.

If its a matter of a mobs armor/resistance, how can we identify these things in order to strategize our battles?

1) Mobs with armor talents will say so on mouseover.

2) Mobs with armor LOOK armored. Things that are wearing armor or covered in hard scales or plates will tend to have high Armor values. Things that are made of tough things (like bones or leather) will tend to have medium Armor values. Things that don't look like they are armored won't be.

3) Observe the critter's class. That's a good fallback indicator. But we do sometimes try to be tricky. Ratbeard is a buccaneer but (because he's not wearing armor!) he doesn't have a lot of armor. Some SWB mobs have heavy armor!

4) Experience.

The more difficult the game is, the more information we need to be able to assimilate. If such information is not made available, then the game suffers as the players lack the tools for success.

This is an astute, correct, and unobjectionable observation.