Forum discussions are now taking place on Discord. For all account questions and concerns, please continue to contact Customer Support directly.

Keep updated on Pirate101 on Twitter @Pirate101, Facebook, Discord, and @KI_Alerts!

 Search  Updated Topics  Hottest Topics  Rules

Turns not fair at start

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
It seems very unfair that one team cant move at the start of the match, and the other team can in their first turn. In test, wasnt it initially set so that both teams cant move for their first turn?

In once match, my pirate got killed right away when goro charged. He can jump over the obstacles in the middle, so there was nothing to stop him.

In the next match, against the same person, I used a valor armor on my self during the first turn to try to prevent that. The opponent used goro, pete, and nausica, so right away, they were able to charge and almost kill one of my companions, and then next turn i lost 2 companions because I had to hide myself.

I think it would be more fair if both teams could not move right away, especially since most long distance attacks like mournsong are now blocked by the obstacles most of the time
Developer
In test, it was initially set so that neither team could move, but that was still problematic. Since neither player could move, and both players could only buff/snipe, it was essentially a push-- so the advantage was still overwhelmingly in the 1st player's favor.

If you go first, you can prep, but you cannot move; if you go last, you can choose to sit still and cast prep spells (essentially handing the first move back to your opponent), or you can "go for it."

It sounds like Goro decided to "go for it."

Now that you understand this is the intended design, and you can perhaps plan for it a little better, I'd be interested in more feedback from you.

I wish I had your luck with the crates-- I've never had them block line of sight.
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
The problem is that when this scenario occurs, there is very little prep that can be done. The only protection that would make sense is valor armor, because others are limited in time, so it would put me at a disadvantage to use them in the first turn.

If the other team has Goro and Nausica, then they can reach my team just about every time in the first turn. And I cant protect my entire team, and I cant even move a hold the line companion in position to halt their charge (do you know of any, Ratbeard? sorry, I digress) So if I protect myself, then it is likely that a companion or two can be killed. And on top of that, the opponent can just send nausica in with a fort, to take out my own nausica or other musket companions easily. The only thing that can protect my whole team is the moo manchu robe warrior summons, due to hold the line, but of course that power wont always show.

I think the best solution would be to allow the team that goes first to move companions within a limited area, maybe 2 spaces each.

And regarding line of site, it has been completely blocked by the obstacles in almost all of my matches, and I have done quite a few so far.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
stormy quentin ver... on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
The problem is that when this scenario occurs, there is very little prep that can be done. The only protection that would make sense is valor armor, because others are limited in time, so it would put me at a disadvantage to use them in the first turn.

If the other team has Goro and Nausica, then they can reach my team just about every time in the first turn. And I cant protect my entire team, and I cant even move a hold the line companion in position to halt their charge (do you know of any, Ratbeard? sorry, I digress) So if I protect myself, then it is likely that a companion or two can be killed. And on top of that, the opponent can just send nausica in with a fort, to take out my own nausica or other musket companions easily. The only thing that can protect my whole team is the moo manchu robe warrior summons, due to hold the line, but of course that power wont always show.

I think the best solution would be to allow the team that goes first to move companions within a limited area, maybe 2 spaces each.

And regarding line of site, it has been completely blocked by the obstacles in almost all of my matches, and I have done quite a few so far.
I think the problem Ratbeard is bringing up is that the same scenario could then happen to your opponent. If he is frozen turn one, he can't move a hold the line companion around either and you can charge your Nausica/Goro to them turn 2. So we end up in the same scenario, except your opponent now does the same strategy on turn 2 instead of turn 1.

What I would suggest is that instead of a full freeze turn 1, that units be allowed to move around a maximum of like 3 spaces, no matter what abilities you use. So this means turn one you can move your Ratbeard to defend turn one, and your opponent can do the same without being able to charge you. Then after turn 1, everything goes for both sides.

No matter what is done, one side will always have an advantage and there is nothing that can be really done about that fully.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
I firmly believe that the system should be adjusted so that both sides are allowed limited companion/player movement on the first round. An easy way to implement this is to have each person have a max of 2 range on the first round. I am opposed to a complete immobilization first round due to the aforementioned problems.(First Ruond Highland charge buccaneer easily comes to mind)
First Mate
Sep 13, 2010
402
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
In test, it was initially set so that neither team could move, but that was still problematic. Since neither player could move, and both players could only buff/snipe, it was essentially a push-- so the advantage was still overwhelmingly in the 1st player's favor.

If you go first, you can prep, but you cannot move; if you go last, you can choose to sit still and cast prep spells (essentially handing the first move back to your opponent), or you can "go for it."

It sounds like Goro decided to "go for it."

Now that you understand this is the intended design, and you can perhaps plan for it a little better, I'd be interested in more feedback from you.

I wish I had your luck with the crates-- I've never had them block line of sight.
I've done 5 Ranked 1v1's, and every time the obstacles have spawned, covering at least the 4 middle squares, and then almost a full 4x4 square of crates surrounding them. How have yours been arranged? Are they always all blobbed next to each other?
Developer
I think the problem Ratbeard is bringing up is that the same scenario could then happen to your opponent. If he is frozen turn one, we end up in the same scenario, except your opponent now does the same strategy on turn 2 instead of turn 1.

Exactly. But it sounds like you are all saying the scales have tipped too much to the bottom of the round.

I firmly believe that the system should be adjusted so that both sides are allowed limited companion/player movement on the first round. An easy way to implement this is to have each person have a max of 2 range on the first round.

As I see it the first problem (and possibly the only problem) to address is the advantage of simply going first. I'm specifically not trying to address any particular top-of-round or bottom-of-round strategy.

I have not seen a good argument that explains why 2 squares of movement for both teams is an equalizing factor. Why 2 squares? Or three? What problem does that solve? Sell me.

Fending off a rush/crush is possible, even if you can't move, with several other existing strategies. Summons, barricades, various talents, different companion selection. There is a big difference between, "I can't defend this," and "I don't like my options for defending this," and most especially, "Nobody can defend this." Those are all very different problems. (see: Black Fog.)

You probably should not expect KI to get into the routine of just continually targeting and nerfing successful strategies.

Every time the obstacles have spawned, covering at least the 4 middle squares, and then almost a full 4x4 square of crates surrounding them. How have yours been arranged? Are they always all blobbed next to each other?

IIRC, there's a 4x4 set of squares in the neutral zone (middle) of every board; these squares may or may not spawn obstacles. Then in addition to that, there's a couple of squares in all 4 directions that also may spawn. So, if every obstacle spawned, you'd see a thick cross shape in the center of the board.
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard, I agree that we cant expect KI to nerph every successful strategy. But this isnt really much of a strategy, it only exists because of the way Rank immobilizes one team during the first turn and not the other.

The problem did not exist in practice PVP due to the board size. Only nausica could reach the other side with her long distance charge. Now, in Ranked PVP, we have a small board, and on top of that the first team cant move to position itself in a defensive position.

All that is happening here is that you introduced an "immobilized" or "frozen tide" for one team in the first round. So since this problem is caused by the "debuff" that has been introduced, why not just modify that "debuff" to allow for even 1 square of movement, kind of like widows touch instead of frozen tide. This can make a huge difference, because then, if needed, we can place a defensive companion with hold the line and maybe repel boarders 3, such as Ratbeard, in a good position to block that first turn charge.
Developer
I'm not convinced it's a problem, and I'm definitely not convinced that "limited movement" is the solution.

For Player 2 to take advantage of his unrestricted movement, he has to forego buffs (or be willing to send his unit across the screen without his pirate). This seems both risky and fair.

Player 1 gets the first turn, but it is a turn of limited options. He gets the first "half turn."

Incidentally-- Are you typically unable to use Widow's Touch because of line-of-sight?

We seem to be talking about a perfect "storm" in your case-- you're drawing the first turn, you're facing GoroNausica consistently, and the obstacles are spawning just perfectly so that you can't make use of your first turn to target him.
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Its not all that risky for the opposing player to send in Nausica with a fort and/or Goro. I have gotten my pirate killed in the first turn twice already, so I dont think it is all that rare. I can sometimes prevent it with widow's touch if it appears, or with the moo robe, but those are the only good options. Otherwise, either myself or companions will be vulnerable to this.

Why create a situation in which one player is at a disadvantage, when it can be remedied by allowing one square of movement?

And regarding the obstacles, I have done over 30 matches, and it seems like they are always in the middle, and prob 90% of the time they completely block line of site.
Ensign
Jul 20, 2009
7
I'd have to agree that something needs to be changed. This system caters to only certain people with certain strategies and companions. Buccaneers and charging companions like Nausica, Goro, Peter, Barnabus, and the like are at an extreme advantage when going second. Say all you'd like about proper defenses, but as a musketeer that specializes in creating unavoidable zones and manipulating enemy movement, I have no possible way of defending against the charges except through overwatch and maybe one hold the line companion. All I'm saying is that it's fairly hard to bounce back after one of you companions is killed the first turn. As for selling the limited movement idea, I'd say this: while still allowing for positioning and buffs to be performed, both pirates can analyze the board for defensive or offensive positions. Limited movement will give both teams time to prepare. I think that it's true, going first has a pretty big advantage, but the ability for the second team to move not only nullifies the advantage, it overcompensates.
Developer
The pre-test status quo (both teams move) gave the advantage to Player 1.

The test version (nobody moves) also gave the advantage to Player 1.

The current live version redirects *some* of the first turn advantage to Player 2.

The current live version is indisputably less of an advantage for Player 2 than the advantage previously enjoyed by player 1 in any other incarnation. It is definitely not true that Player 2 now has more of an advantage than Player 1 did before.

Your problem is not the turn order; your problem is Buccaneers employing a good strategy for buccaneers. It's specifically why buccaneers have all those charge powers. It is not at all surprising to see Witchdoctors and Musketeers complaining about Buccaneers, since buccaneers are specifically designed to mitigate the advantages of witchdoctors and musketeers.

You're going to have to deal with a series of coin-flip scenarios-- who goes first, what obstacles are present, and yes, what opponent you draw.

Obviously we don't want a situation where you just flat out lose on a coin flip. That's no fun for anyone.

I'll watch this thread for further developments and suggestions. More feedback from other players and especially other classes would be helpful.
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
If anyone has done battle royale you'll see that this happens 4x as often if a buccaneer goes first they will use leviathans call/valor's fort and have quint use whales might and charge the squishiest opponent near to them (muskets, witches, etc) just yesterday I saw a buccaneer 100 to 0 a bonnie turn 2 while her privateer captain could only manage to fort herself granted the buccaneer didn't win. It was extremely scary to see someone have their chances of winning just cut in half in one turn, that could have been me but luckily I was on the opposite side of the board and had Ratbeard so he went for the most vulnerable target. The guy was clearly playing to his strength so if anyone does battle royal bringing a very vulnerable companion is extremely risky even for privateers who can spare forts
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Aug 9, 2015 wrote:
The pre-test status quo (both teams move) gave the advantage to Player 1.

The test version (nobody moves) also gave the advantage to Player 1.

The current live version redirects *some* of the first turn advantage to Player 2.

The current live version is indisputably less of an advantage for Player 2 than the advantage previously enjoyed by player 1 in any other incarnation. It is definitely not true that Player 2 now has more of an advantage than Player 1 did before.

Your problem is not the turn order; your problem is Buccaneers employing a good strategy for buccaneers. It's specifically why buccaneers have all those charge powers. It is not at all surprising to see Witchdoctors and Musketeers complaining about Buccaneers, since buccaneers are specifically designed to mitigate the advantages of witchdoctors and musketeers.

You're going to have to deal with a series of coin-flip scenarios-- who goes first, what obstacles are present, and yes, what opponent you draw.

Obviously we don't want a situation where you just flat out lose on a coin flip. That's no fun for anyone.

I'll watch this thread for further developments and suggestions. More feedback from other players and especially other classes would be helpful.
this wasnt a problem with the brawl hall battleboard, just saying
Captain
Sep 19, 2012
631
Ratbeard on Aug 9, 2015 wrote:
The pre-test status quo (both teams move) gave the advantage to Player 1.

The test version (nobody moves) also gave the advantage to Player 1.

The current live version redirects *some* of the first turn advantage to Player 2.

The current live version is indisputably less of an advantage for Player 2 than the advantage previously enjoyed by player 1 in any other incarnation. It is definitely not true that Player 2 now has more of an advantage than Player 1 did before.

Your problem is not the turn order; your problem is Buccaneers employing a good strategy for buccaneers. It's specifically why buccaneers have all those charge powers. It is not at all surprising to see Witchdoctors and Musketeers complaining about Buccaneers, since buccaneers are specifically designed to mitigate the advantages of witchdoctors and musketeers.

You're going to have to deal with a series of coin-flip scenarios-- who goes first, what obstacles are present, and yes, what opponent you draw.

Obviously we don't want a situation where you just flat out lose on a coin flip. That's no fun for anyone.

I'll watch this thread for further developments and suggestions. More feedback from other players and especially other classes would be helpful.
actually i think i might try it now.. to me (melee witch) i think the solution ratbeard came up with is much more fair.. I am a "squishy" player and i think it'll be easier to plan for now.. if i go first i can hide or buff or summon, if i go second i can charge in with one of my companions.. seems like a fair compromise to me risks on both sides of course, yet more balanced and easier to strategize with
stormy jen
Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
Ratbeard on Aug 9, 2015 wrote:
The pre-test status quo (both teams move) gave the advantage to Player 1.

The test version (nobody moves) also gave the advantage to Player 1.

The current live version redirects *some* of the first turn advantage to Player 2.

The current live version is indisputably less of an advantage for Player 2 than the advantage previously enjoyed by player 1 in any other incarnation. It is definitely not true that Player 2 now has more of an advantage than Player 1 did before.

Your problem is not the turn order; your problem is Buccaneers employing a good strategy for buccaneers. It's specifically why buccaneers have all those charge powers. It is not at all surprising to see Witchdoctors and Musketeers complaining about Buccaneers, since buccaneers are specifically designed to mitigate the advantages of witchdoctors and musketeers.

You're going to have to deal with a series of coin-flip scenarios-- who goes first, what obstacles are present, and yes, what opponent you draw.

Obviously we don't want a situation where you just flat out lose on a coin flip. That's no fun for anyone.

I'll watch this thread for further developments and suggestions. More feedback from other players and especially other classes would be helpful.
In free for all, I couldn't move my ratbeard (my main defense to stop rushes) in a defensive position to hold the buccaneer's charge. I died by round 2 and so did my ratbeard. He did a charge and so did his peter quint.

I didn't have the barricade in hand nor my knockback bombs.

I think a limit of 1 square movement is fair. At least give my ratbeard a chance to defend me with hold the line. That's the sole reason I use him! If I don't use a hold-the-line companion then I will just get obliterated by buccaneers in free for all.

AND NO. I am not saying this to defend from only one class. I also use ratbeard to hold other pirates and companions from rushing me. It doesn't always work but at least HE CAN MOVE and have a chance to.