Has the flanking skill been changed?

AuthorMessage
Petty Officer
Nov 28, 2008
82
Either flanking has been changed or there may be a new bug.

Previously, when starting a combat round in a proper flanking position, it activated. Now, you have to move into a spot on that combat round. If you start in the proper spot, it will not activate and was tried 4 or 5 times.
The only way I could get it to activate was to move the character to a new location that was also proper for a flanking shot. Then upon landing in that spot, it activated 100% of the time.

I just need to know if it was a design change or not, as I have several of my companions loaded up with that skill. If it has changed, it is allot less effective and I will need to change their setups. Im not sure why it would change though, if you have someone in a crossfire/flanking position, does it matter if your continuing to attack or just now making a new attack?

Petty Officer
Nov 28, 2008
82
So no one has seen any changes to flanking? Or, do people just not use flanking all that much?

What about feedback from the game designers? Have you guys "tweaked" or "corrected" the way flanking activates recently (last couple weeks or so)?

The problem is that it doesnt activate unless you move to a new square first. That just doesnt seem right to me.

Administrator
I can tell you that the way it's supposed to work is that at least one person (either the flanker or the flankee) must move in a round for flanking to fire. Standing in the same position over and over will not cause flanking to fire every time. For strategy with using flanking, keep circling the enemy, and it will consistently trigger. If the enemy steps between a flanker, it will also trigger.

That said, I'll pass your message along to the designers to ensure there isn't a problem.

*One-Eyed Jack, Your Pirate101 Community Manager*
Gunner's Mate
Jan 06, 2011
225
As One-Eyed Jack said, it has changed but it is much more effective now than it was before. You have to move for it to trigger on your turn but it can also trigger on the enemies turn if them move into the spot between your flanker and other melee unit. You also don't have to attack the unit you are going to flank, allowing you to spread your damage if you wish.

Gunner's Mate
Apr 26, 2009
270
I am pretty sure this is always the way it's been. I however do notice flanking does not trigger with another person who does not use your weapon type (melee or ranged) is it possible KI could add this?

Developer
Dead Eye Luke on Jan 9, 2013 wrote:
I am pretty sure this is always the way it's been. I however do notice flanking does not trigger with another person who does not use your weapon type (melee or ranged) is it possible KI could add this?
Definitely not.

Petty Officer
Nov 28, 2008
82
I have noticed since the beginning of the game it has changed.

RATBEARD - I realize the setting were changed for whatever reason however I questuion the logic in the way it is. Currently either the attacker or the attacked has to move to the key position to activate the ability. You can not, for instance, stand on both sides with two toons and get the bonus round after round.

I feel this change was due to the PvP crowd complaining about this or that. Please stop changing the game to accomidate the pvp crowd. This would not be the first MMO that lessened the quality of the game based on the complaints of the PvP crowd. You generally have to choose what kind of game you are and focus on making that as good as possible.

In real life (yes I realize this is just a game), if someone is caught in a crossfire, that situation does not change until someone moves AWAY, not into. The vulnerability of a crossfire or flanking position (in real life) does not lesson by standing still, it worsens or remains static. In the military, it is considered good strategy to flank or corssfire the enemy. It opens up weaknesses, cleaner shots and unguarded positions. It then becomes the defenders choice to either fight it out and accept the vulnerability as it exists or to change positions in hopes of a more defensible position.

You guys have it just the opposite. I SHOULD be able to stand there with 2 skilled flankers/crossfire experts and completely decimate the opponent if he is stupid enough to just stand there and take the pounding. This would go on round after round with no attackers moving as long as the defender doesnt adjust. Thats part of life. Fix your weaknesses or deal with the consequenses. It should be the same way in pvp. And if they get caught in that crossfire, good moves for the attacker, NOT "woe is me" for the defender. Reward excellence, not inability.

Captain
May 02, 2009
525
Well, when I did the Privateer's level 25 school quest, all the otters knew crossfire and some other musketeer move. Crossfire activated every round without moving the otters, but with flanking you have to continuously move your unit, circling the enemy. This is very effective! Probably be four times as effective if that unit has GREAT accuracy, relentless 2, and just won't stop getting a criticals.

Petty Officer
Nov 28, 2008
82
coolster50 on Jan 10, 2013 wrote:
Well, when I did the Privateer's level 25 school quest, all the otters knew crossfire and some other musketeer move. Crossfire activated every round without moving the otters, but with flanking you have to continuously move your unit, circling the enemy. This is very effective! Probably be four times as effective if that unit has GREAT accuracy, relentless 2, and just won't stop getting a criticals.
It used to activate without moving on the flanking but was changed some time in the recent past. I even spent money for crowns to buy a companion that had flanking as a choice to add to my stable. Now that its changed, I regret purchasing them. No worries though, hopefully we can change it back or fix the bug causing it.

I leveled all the way to 50 (discovering flanking along the way). With my new class, he has a companion that got flanking as a choice around level 20 ish. Thats when I noticed it didnt work the same. Either it was nerfed or it just isnt working as intended. According to one-eye jack, hes thinking its working as its supposed to to his understanding of it. If thats the case, it was malfunctioning for my entire first character.

If it was modified recently, perhaps some kind of notification would have been nice. I dislike stealth nerf to the point that I have quit games I liked playing to not have to deal with them. There were whole forum sections labeled "stealth nerfs" on the game forums after every patch because the company was terrible at communication. If this was really a free game or a beta, I could understand, but people have to play money to play. We are the customers. We deserve to at least know when large enough changes are put in that will affect our play.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 06, 2011
225
eveque67 on Jan 10, 2013 wrote:
I have noticed since the beginning of the game it has changed.

RATBEARD - I realize the setting were changed for whatever reason however I questuion the logic in the way it is. Currently either the attacker or the attacked has to move to the key position to activate the ability. You can not, for instance, stand on both sides with two toons and get the bonus round after round.

I feel this change was due to the PvP crowd complaining about this or that. Please stop changing the game to accomidate the pvp crowd. This would not be the first MMO that lessened the quality of the game based on the complaints of the PvP crowd. You generally have to choose what kind of game you are and focus on making that as good as possible.

In real life (yes I realize this is just a game), if someone is caught in a crossfire, that situation does not change until someone moves AWAY, not into. The vulnerability of a crossfire or flanking position (in real life) does not lesson by standing still, it worsens or remains static. In the military, it is considered good strategy to flank or corssfire the enemy. It opens up weaknesses, cleaner shots and unguarded positions. It then becomes the defenders choice to either fight it out and accept the vulnerability as it exists or to change positions in hopes of a more defensible position.

You guys have it just the opposite. I SHOULD be able to stand there with 2 skilled flankers/crossfire experts and completely decimate the opponent if he is stupid enough to just stand there and take the pounding. This would go on round after round with no attackers moving as long as the defender doesnt adjust. Thats part of life. Fix your weaknesses or deal with the consequenses. It should be the same way in pvp. And if they get caught in that crossfire, good moves for the attacker, NOT "woe is me" for the defender. Reward excellence, not inability.
I don't think this was changed due to PvP (considering the change came at the same time PvP came and there had been no threads complaining about flanking during the test realm). I think it was changed because the old way had issues, such as not getting both attacks if you missed the first one.
The new way is much better, in my opinion, because it adds new strategies, allows the skill to trigger during the enemies turn, and makes having flanking rank 2 actually useful. Also crossfire was very hard to set up before, so much so that it was almost the worst talent (behind witch hunter).

If you want to compare it to real world tactics (which, as you said, is silly because this is a game) I would say that flanking is a surprise attack, but when that surprise is over the enemy is able to defend their flank.

All in all I think the new flanking is better than the old and I don't see any problem with it in PvP.

Petty Officer
Nov 28, 2008
82
KiwiChickenz on Jan 11, 2013 wrote:
I don't think this was changed due to PvP (considering the change came at the same time PvP came and there had been no threads complaining about flanking during the test realm). I think it was changed because the old way had issues, such as not getting both attacks if you missed the first one.
The new way is much better, in my opinion, because it adds new strategies, allows the skill to trigger during the enemies turn, and makes having flanking rank 2 actually useful. Also crossfire was very hard to set up before, so much so that it was almost the worst talent (behind witch hunter).

If you want to compare it to real world tactics (which, as you said, is silly because this is a game) I would say that flanking is a surprise attack, but when that surprise is over the enemy is able to defend their flank.

All in all I think the new flanking is better than the old and I don't see any problem with it in PvP.
Actually, flanking is a description of position in relation to your target (side attack), allowing an advantage to attacks. Surprise attacks are completely different. Those are attacks which the defender is unaware of or unanticipated and has little to no time to react to.

As far as defending from a flanking attack once you find yourself in that situation, the solution is to find a way to cover your flank. That is always done by adjusting your position, stepping along side something (also moving) or having a buddy intercept (he moves inbetween and protects the flank). In all 3 cases, movement is happening. In the 3rd, when a friend intercepts and injects himself in, that in itself negates the requirements of the attack anyways.

If you are sword fighting and someone is on both sides (flanking), you moves and adjust to get out of the middle. You can also move to a corner narrowing your side area of exposure (cant get on both sides at the same time). You could have a friend join you in the fight. Maybe you are super skilled like someone hollywood would make up and you fight both sides at the same time with 2 different swords, but even then, they dont stand there, they adjust also, just not much.

As far as bug squashing as you say, to fix the missed attack, they may have done that, I dont know yet. That may have been what caused this bug.

I do agree crossfire was terrible before without the opportunity fire type of trigger as people moved through the kill zone. However that shouldnt change how flanking works. I also agree the changes make crossfire better since you dont have to move constantly. They just need to add the feature of being able to maintain position and still trigger the effect for flanking. I dont know if you have to move or not to trigger it with crossfire.

Developer
It used to activate without moving, but it *also* used to only activate on your own turn, only if you attacked the opponent, and only IF YOU HIT at that.

In short, it wasn't working as intended at all.

The new Flanking is much more flexible and powerful, as indeed is the new Crossfire-- your Musketeer units can move AND shoot in the same round. Mull that over a bit while we wait for the Crossfire fixes to work their way into a patch.

It was not changed for PVP; the current changes pre-date PVP. Since there's currently absolutely nothing at stake in PVP, there's no reason to rebalance anything yet. We are still in "wait and see" mode. The only changes I've made due to PVP so far are notes in a notebook-- and none of them are nerfs.

Bosun
Sep 08, 2008
388
I never noticed that change. Then again, I never 'discovered' flanking until I was 50.

I do think flanking for melee is good the way it is. If it were to trigger each and every single round, that would make the melee a bit overpowered, no?

In my opinion, anyone complaining about it now is just complaining about losing out on power. Then again, I never even knew about the change, so there was nothing for ME to complain about.

As for the ranged units and their continuous crossfire, it would make sense. Ranged units can not move and attack at the same time (which I still hate) so it would make kind of sense if they did not have to forfeit attacking just to trigger a flanking attack.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 06, 2011
225
Eveque67, try out this new way of flanking. I'm sure you will find it is more powerful and flexible than it was before. It is not too hard to keep moving around, especially if your pirate is a melee class. You can set up flank traps for the enemy to move into (and the computer is stupid, they will move there) or have your unit attack two enemies in the same turn.

This change wasn't a nerf, though it should have been documented.