Turn the Tide Vs Elusive

AuthorMessage
Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Does anyone know why Turn the Tide isn't trainable like Elusive? I've noticed that it puts Swashbucklers at a severe disadvantage when fighting Buccaneers. For the low price of just 2 Training Points, a Buccaneer can have Elusive 2 and Turn the Tide 3 (+50% dodge +25% damage, and +25% accuracy), while Swashbucklers need 2 Training points, a pet with "Grants Turn the Tide," AND "Grants Elusive" AND the Dragon Axe of Doom to have Elusive 3 and TtT 2 (which gives same stat percentage). Not only that, but if a Buccaneer manages to add a pet with "Grants Elusive," it'd give them +75% dodge. Buccaneers also have higher health, meaning at below 50% health, they have more health than Swashbuckler at the same percentage of health. I'm not upset about the health thing, I'm just pointing out how that means a Buccaneer can get higher stats for a greater amount of time than a Swashbuckler could.

The few caps and bold, just for emphasis, not out of anger. In fact, I'm not really all that angry. Slightly perturbed for sure, but who doesn't have something that upsets them just a little? Actually, about half the reason I want this is because I have 3 or 4 Training Points lying around and there's nothing worthwhile to get with them. But anyways, no one can argue that it would be AMAZING if we could train TtT 2, or even just TtT 1, like we can Elusive.

KingsIsle, I'd appreciate any reply, even if it's rejecting my request, because I know you'd tell me why it should stay the way it is (if that's the case). I just think it'd be nice for everyone of we could train TtT 1 or 2 for Training Points like we can Elusive. I am actually very curious as to why we can't, so I look forward to any answer you have to offer.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Every class is different and has their ups and down. What Buccaneers have in tide 3, Swashbucklers make up in other areas. If you are that upset about Tide 3, then just make your own Buccaneer. But then you will realize how much more different and difficult a melee class can be when you can't just use Black Fog and destroy opponent's crews.

Ensign
Nov 18, 2013
12
Just in the case you forgot, Elusive 2 doesn't increase the amount of dodge you get compared to Elusive 1. You only get 1 extra movement, or 2 extra movement overall from Elusive 2.

Elusive 3 does give 50% dodge, but only Elusive 3. Elusive 2 still gives 25%.

...Unless the game got ninja-updated.

Expecting no ninjas or updates for now,
Honest Morgan Morgan, level 70 .

Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
Buccaneers do not have fog, they also do not have riposte3 or dodgy3, not sure what your point is here, but all the classes are different on purpose.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
@Alex Hawkins, I actually have a Buccaneer and he's VERY easy to use. Rarely misses, and that's without Toro (except in the Machine dungeon where all enemies have UBER high stats). Btw I'm not upset as much as I am excited about the possibility. I'm saving my last 3 (or 4) Training Points for in case it's ever made available.

@Some Swashbuckler, I was adding the extra 25% dodge a Buccaneer gets from TtT 3. Add that to the 25% dodge they could get from Elusive 2 and they get 50% dodge easy. If they also happened to acquire a pet that grants Elusive, they'd then get +75% dodge.

@Jasmine3429, Swashbucklers don't have Triton's Chorus, Vengeance Strike 3, or Armor 3, so I'm not sure what your point is. I know the classes are meant to be different. It wouldn't suddenly make Swashes and Bucks the same class if KI made TtT 1 or 2 available for Training Points. And if making TtT (at any rank) available for Training Points is somehow a bad thing, then why is Elusive 2 available?

Look guys, I'm not angry. KI welcomes feedback, ideas, and suggestions so I thought I'd share mine. If they tell me they're not gonna do it, I won't argue with them, but until they say such a thing I will be promoting this idea, and even then I'd probably still hold out hope. This isn't a rant about how unfair the game is. I'm just confused about why the two talents aren't treated the same (in regard to availability), and honestly kind of excited about it possibly ever becoming available. It'd be great for all classes and would help a LOT in PVE.

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jun 22, 2016 wrote:
@Alex Hawkins, I actually have a Buccaneer and he's VERY easy to use. Rarely misses, and that's without Toro (except in the Machine dungeon where all enemies have UBER high stats). Btw I'm not upset as much as I am excited about the possibility. I'm saving my last 3 (or 4) Training Points for in case it's ever made available.

@Some Swashbuckler, I was adding the extra 25% dodge a Buccaneer gets from TtT 3. Add that to the 25% dodge they could get from Elusive 2 and they get 50% dodge easy. If they also happened to acquire a pet that grants Elusive, they'd then get +75% dodge.

@Jasmine3429, Swashbucklers don't have Triton's Chorus, Vengeance Strike 3, or Armor 3, so I'm not sure what your point is. I know the classes are meant to be different. It wouldn't suddenly make Swashes and Bucks the same class if KI made TtT 1 or 2 available for Training Points. And if making TtT (at any rank) available for Training Points is somehow a bad thing, then why is Elusive 2 available?

Look guys, I'm not angry. KI welcomes feedback, ideas, and suggestions so I thought I'd share mine. If they tell me they're not gonna do it, I won't argue with them, but until they say such a thing I will be promoting this idea, and even then I'd probably still hold out hope. This isn't a rant about how unfair the game is. I'm just confused about why the two talents aren't treated the same (in regard to availability), and honestly kind of excited about it possibly ever becoming available. It'd be great for all classes and would help a LOT in PVE.
"... Would help a lot in PvE."
Then why did you post this in the Spar Chamber?

From a pvp perspective, swashbuckler being able to learn turn the tide is a horrible idea, let me explain why.

With the Dragon Axe of Doom and a grants TTT pet, swashbuckler can get TTT 2 but if they were able to learn it, they would be able to get TTT 3.

Swashbuckler already has dodgy 3 and higher base dodge than buc, getting TTT 3 would just increase their dodge even more. But now let's add some math to this.

Without any gear, I have about 150-155 dodge on my swashbuckler and 120 on my buc. If I had elusive 3 on both of those characters, my buc's dodge would be about 202 and my swashbuckler's dodge would be about 217. If swashbuckler got TTT 3, my swashbuckler would have an outstanding 251 dodge.

Now tell me, what exactly is balanced about swashbuckler getting 251 dodge?

As a side note, every class can learn elusive so that privy and musketeers don't dominate the arena.

Lvl 70
Lvl 46
Lvl 16

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Adam Wintersinger on Jun 24, 2016 wrote:
"... Would help a lot in PvE."
Then why did you post this in the Spar Chamber?

From a pvp perspective, swashbuckler being able to learn turn the tide is a horrible idea, let me explain why.

With the Dragon Axe of Doom and a grants TTT pet, swashbuckler can get TTT 2 but if they were able to learn it, they would be able to get TTT 3.

Swashbuckler already has dodgy 3 and higher base dodge than buc, getting TTT 3 would just increase their dodge even more. But now let's add some math to this.

Without any gear, I have about 150-155 dodge on my swashbuckler and 120 on my buc. If I had elusive 3 on both of those characters, my buc's dodge would be about 202 and my swashbuckler's dodge would be about 217. If swashbuckler got TTT 3, my swashbuckler would have an outstanding 251 dodge.

Now tell me, what exactly is balanced about swashbuckler getting 251 dodge?

As a side note, every class can learn elusive so that privy and musketeers don't dominate the arena.

Lvl 70
Lvl 46
Lvl 16
You do realize just how hard it is for a person to attain both the DAD and a pet with "Grants Turn the Tide," right? It took me half a year at best to get them, so you wouldn't need to worry about tons of Swashes running around with TtT 3. Besides, most of us would probably ditch the DAD for the Champion's Sabres first chance we get (not to mention the fact that most of us don't even have TtT 1).

Hold on, Swashes have about 135-40 BASE dodge. That's what you need to be using for your calculations. A Buck with TtT 3 and Elusive 3 (and a base dodge of 120) would have around 210 dodge when the two talents are active. A Swash with the same talents and a base dodge of 135 would have around 235 dodge. That's a difference of only 25 dodge, plus Swashbucklers are supposed to have the highest dodge of any class.

But as it is, Swashes can't get TtT 3 (most don't even have TtT 1), so they'd get a dodge of about 200 at most. This means that a max Buck would have more dodge than a max Swash when both are under 50% health. Let's also note that most Swashes don't have Elusive 3 either, so that further reduces it to only 170 dodge (compared to a Buck's 180 with Elusive 2). So a Buck can get higher damage, accuracy and DODGE than a Swash can when both are under 50% health.

I'm not angry. I just want to point out how making TtT 1 or 2 available for TP wouldn't turn the game upside-down. Most Swashes don't have TtT of any rank, and it'd be incredibly difficult for them to attain the same level of the talent as Bucks, so many Swashes wouldn't get to TtT 3 (especially if they made TtT 1 the only rank available for TP). The game would still be balanced, even if a Swash managed to attain TtT 3. Most people in PvP have plenty of powers with 100% accuracy.

70
67
35
11

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jun 24, 2016 wrote:
You do realize just how hard it is for a person to attain both the DAD and a pet with "Grants Turn the Tide," right? It took me half a year at best to get them, so you wouldn't need to worry about tons of Swashes running around with TtT 3. Besides, most of us would probably ditch the DAD for the Champion's Sabres first chance we get (not to mention the fact that most of us don't even have TtT 1).

Hold on, Swashes have about 135-40 BASE dodge. That's what you need to be using for your calculations. A Buck with TtT 3 and Elusive 3 (and a base dodge of 120) would have around 210 dodge when the two talents are active. A Swash with the same talents and a base dodge of 135 would have around 235 dodge. That's a difference of only 25 dodge, plus Swashbucklers are supposed to have the highest dodge of any class.

But as it is, Swashes can't get TtT 3 (most don't even have TtT 1), so they'd get a dodge of about 200 at most. This means that a max Buck would have more dodge than a max Swash when both are under 50% health. Let's also note that most Swashes don't have Elusive 3 either, so that further reduces it to only 170 dodge (compared to a Buck's 180 with Elusive 2). So a Buck can get higher damage, accuracy and DODGE than a Swash can when both are under 50% health.

I'm not angry. I just want to point out how making TtT 1 or 2 available for TP wouldn't turn the game upside-down. Most Swashes don't have TtT of any rank, and it'd be incredibly difficult for them to attain the same level of the talent as Bucks, so many Swashes wouldn't get to TtT 3 (especially if they made TtT 1 the only rank available for TP). The game would still be balanced, even if a Swash managed to attain TtT 3. Most people in PvP have plenty of powers with 100% accuracy.

70
67
35
11
First of all, I got both the DAD and grants turn the tide within a week or 2 of maxing my swashbuckler, it isn't that hard if you farm enough, I have plenty of dragon axes.

2nd of all, the difference between buc and swashbucklers is that swashbuckler have a "reaction" when they dodge, riposte. If a buc dodges, nothing happens (unless they have grants riposte but that is unlikely) but if a buckler dodges, they can do at least 300-500 damage if the buc doesn't have a shield.

That's a lot of damage when you're at half health and getting a riposte would lead to higher dodge with riposte 3 plus the buc would vengeance strike (and probably miss because of the dodge buff) and so on and so forth until the buc either dies, the swashbuckler runs out of riposte or the swashbuckler misses.

Turn the tide 3 would be a mess with this, especially stacking with elusive 3 and riposte 3 buffs making the swashbuckler really difficult to hit.

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
Umm let's see, TTT on buckler... yeah lets wait half health and go hide, now just how much damage would that be?

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Adam Wintersinger on Jun 26, 2016 wrote:
First of all, I got both the DAD and grants turn the tide within a week or 2 of maxing my swashbuckler, it isn't that hard if you farm enough, I have plenty of dragon axes.

2nd of all, the difference between buc and swashbucklers is that swashbuckler have a "reaction" when they dodge, riposte. If a buc dodges, nothing happens (unless they have grants riposte but that is unlikely) but if a buckler dodges, they can do at least 300-500 damage if the buc doesn't have a shield.

That's a lot of damage when you're at half health and getting a riposte would lead to higher dodge with riposte 3 plus the buc would vengeance strike (and probably miss because of the dodge buff) and so on and so forth until the buc either dies, the swashbuckler runs out of riposte or the swashbuckler misses.

Turn the tide 3 would be a mess with this, especially stacking with elusive 3 and riposte 3 buffs making the swashbuckler really difficult to hit.
"making the swashbuckler really difficult to hit." Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the point of being a Swash? Aren't they supposed to be hard to hit? Plus, assuming TtT 1 is the only rank ever available for TP, Swashes would have to be using a weapon that makes their naturally high agility (and all agility-granting equipment) moot. They would gain a boost from strength, which they have significantly less of, and don't have no-auction equipment which grants it. Critical chance and damage would be significantly reduced, plus no armor piercing. To get TtT 3 they'd have to sacrifice certain stats, so it's not like they'd suddenly become OP again.

The whole point of being a Swash is to be hard to hit. As it is, Bucks are the hardest to hit when it really counts, plus you have to take into account just how many accuracy-reducing powers Bucks have. A Swash with Elusive 3 & TtT 3 would most likely be facing Bucks with 4-5 Vicious Charges at their disposal, plus roughly the same amount of Levi Calls. Which of these two combatants really needs to worry about getting hit?

I'll say you have a point about why TtT 2 should not be available for TP, but TtT 1 wouldn't imbalance the game at all. Swashes would be forced to abandon their natural weapon for a Buck's weapon, which would be a disadvantage. A Swash with TtT 3 would by no means be a perfect Swash, since it'd have to be using the DAD. I know it's a powerful weapon, but it doesn't help a Swash nearly as much as their natural, stabby weapons. The only use would have is the extra TtT rank it gives.

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jun 26, 2016 wrote:
"making the swashbuckler really difficult to hit." Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the point of being a Swash? Aren't they supposed to be hard to hit? Plus, assuming TtT 1 is the only rank ever available for TP, Swashes would have to be using a weapon that makes their naturally high agility (and all agility-granting equipment) moot. They would gain a boost from strength, which they have significantly less of, and don't have no-auction equipment which grants it. Critical chance and damage would be significantly reduced, plus no armor piercing. To get TtT 3 they'd have to sacrifice certain stats, so it's not like they'd suddenly become OP again.

The whole point of being a Swash is to be hard to hit. As it is, Bucks are the hardest to hit when it really counts, plus you have to take into account just how many accuracy-reducing powers Bucks have. A Swash with Elusive 3 & TtT 3 would most likely be facing Bucks with 4-5 Vicious Charges at their disposal, plus roughly the same amount of Levi Calls. Which of these two combatants really needs to worry about getting hit?

I'll say you have a point about why TtT 2 should not be available for TP, but TtT 1 wouldn't imbalance the game at all. Swashes would be forced to abandon their natural weapon for a Buck's weapon, which would be a disadvantage. A Swash with TtT 3 would by no means be a perfect Swash, since it'd have to be using the DAD. I know it's a powerful weapon, but it doesn't help a Swash nearly as much as their natural, stabby weapons. The only use would have is the extra TtT rank it gives.
I was thinking of wording it making it impossible to hit but that seemed too much.

Shadow dance would be a great counter to bucs when using the DAD since they are facing a strength based class so Criticals wouldn't be too much of a problem. As for weapon power, mine only goes down from 344 to 300, which in my opinion isn't that big of a deal, still does massive damage.

"4-5 viscious charges at their disposal", for this to even happen, the buc would have to replace valuable powers for viscious charges. And besides, Swashbucklers have tons of assassin's strikes at their disposal too which cannot miss and swashbucklers can also go hidden and poison. They can always just wait for the levy to run out by going hidden.

Plus, Buc isn't the only concern, Privys can be melee too so we have to take them into consideration also. Privy has no accuracy reducing move, they have battle zeal but that would only last a few rounds and most Privys don't use the DAD either so they won't have much accuracy at half health so they would get annihilated by a swashbuckler especially if the swashbuckler had TTT 3.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Adam Wintersinger on Jun 27, 2016 wrote:
I was thinking of wording it making it impossible to hit but that seemed too much.

Shadow dance would be a great counter to bucs when using the DAD since they are facing a strength based class so Criticals wouldn't be too much of a problem. As for weapon power, mine only goes down from 344 to 300, which in my opinion isn't that big of a deal, still does massive damage.

"4-5 viscious charges at their disposal", for this to even happen, the buc would have to replace valuable powers for viscious charges. And besides, Swashbucklers have tons of assassin's strikes at their disposal too which cannot miss and swashbucklers can also go hidden and poison. They can always just wait for the levy to run out by going hidden.

Plus, Buc isn't the only concern, Privys can be melee too so we have to take them into consideration also. Privy has no accuracy reducing move, they have battle zeal but that would only last a few rounds and most Privys don't use the DAD either so they won't have much accuracy at half health so they would get annihilated by a swashbuckler especially if the swashbuckler had TTT 3.
I know from experience that shadow dance does very little to help the critical chance when you're fighting someone with much greater WAS stats than you. Bucks get their own strength increasing powers, while a Swash would need to get gear for that (and would still have significantly less strength).

"the buc would have to replace valuable powers for viscious charges." Valuable powers like Forts and Assassin Strikes? That would mean you'd be fighting a Buck with possibly even more damage decreasing powers AND up to 3 Assassin's Strikes. Any good Buck has at least 4-5, -50% damage powers, possibly more. Swashes can carry, at most 4 of them, and if they were, they'd be sacrificing important powers. An exposed Swash is a dead swash, unless they can dodge. My point still stands, Swash is the class with the least health, and has the most need of high dodge.

Privy only has repel, which means they'll only trigger about one riposte. They also have tons of Forts and other buffs, so I wouldn't worry too much for them.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Silver Angel on Jun 26, 2016 wrote:
Umm let's see, TTT on buckler... yeah lets wait half health and go hide, now just how much damage would that be?
Swashes can get TtT 1 already, and TtT 3 doesn't add any more damage than TtT 1 or 2.

Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
382
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jun 28, 2016 wrote:
I know from experience that shadow dance does very little to help the critical chance when you're fighting someone with much greater WAS stats than you. Bucks get their own strength increasing powers, while a Swash would need to get gear for that (and would still have significantly less strength).

"the buc would have to replace valuable powers for viscious charges." Valuable powers like Forts and Assassin Strikes? That would mean you'd be fighting a Buck with possibly even more damage decreasing powers AND up to 3 Assassin's Strikes. Any good Buck has at least 4-5, -50% damage powers, possibly more. Swashes can carry, at most 4 of them, and if they were, they'd be sacrificing important powers. An exposed Swash is a dead swash, unless they can dodge. My point still stands, Swash is the class with the least health, and has the most need of high dodge.

Privy only has repel, which means they'll only trigger about one riposte. They also have tons of Forts and other buffs, so I wouldn't worry too much for them.
"Privy only has repel, which means they'll only trigger about one riposte. They also have tons of Forts and other buffs, so I wouldn't worry too much for them."

Yeah about 3 forts? Considering you use tower gear. And what other buffs? Just one VA, and tower of iron will is useless.

Lieutenant
Mar 28, 2010
113
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jun 28, 2016 wrote:
I know from experience that shadow dance does very little to help the critical chance when you're fighting someone with much greater WAS stats than you. Bucks get their own strength increasing powers, while a Swash would need to get gear for that (and would still have significantly less strength).

"the buc would have to replace valuable powers for viscious charges." Valuable powers like Forts and Assassin Strikes? That would mean you'd be fighting a Buck with possibly even more damage decreasing powers AND up to 3 Assassin's Strikes. Any good Buck has at least 4-5, -50% damage powers, possibly more. Swashes can carry, at most 4 of them, and if they were, they'd be sacrificing important powers. An exposed Swash is a dead swash, unless they can dodge. My point still stands, Swash is the class with the least health, and has the most need of high dodge.

Privy only has repel, which means they'll only trigger about one riposte. They also have tons of Forts and other buffs, so I wouldn't worry too much for them.
Don't forget that Swashbuckler can bring Assassin's Strike too. 1 Assassin's Strike can do 800 damage and 200 with bleeding and Swashbuckler can bring lots of them. At half health, 2 assassin's strikes can take out a buc if he doesn't have a shield AND it doesn't require accuracy.

Plus, Swashbucklers can escape Buccaneers by going hidden and being able to heal, shield, poison or assassin's strike.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Silver Angel on Jun 29, 2016 wrote:
"Privy only has repel, which means they'll only trigger about one riposte. They also have tons of Forts and other buffs, so I wouldn't worry too much for them."

Yeah about 3 forts? Considering you use tower gear. And what other buffs? Just one VA, and tower of iron will is useless.
If you're going to be using a Swash with full tower gear then you have to match him up against a Privy with full tower gear, which would mean they'd have a minimum of 5 VF's. Not to mention the new Privy powers that have sparked backlash that would rival what happened when Black Fog entered the arena, except this time the benefactors (Privateers) are admitting that they're OP. All you have to do is use a critical buff, Marchioness' will buff, and Ol' Scratch's 100% mojo buff on turn one, then use your bombs to do upwards of 1500 damage, sometimes up to 3000! And you can't hide from that. Privateers are currently the strongest class in the meta, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is just asking why Turn the Tide can't be available for Training Points like Elusive is.

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Adam Wintersinger on Jun 30, 2016 wrote:
Don't forget that Swashbuckler can bring Assassin's Strike too. 1 Assassin's Strike can do 800 damage and 200 with bleeding and Swashbuckler can bring lots of them. At half health, 2 assassin's strikes can take out a buc if he doesn't have a shield AND it doesn't require accuracy.

Plus, Swashbucklers can escape Buccaneers by going hidden and being able to heal, shield, poison or assassin's strike.
Firstly, what kind of Buccaneer goes 2 whole turns (in the middle of combat) without a Levi's Call or VF active? Secondly, consider Triton's Chorus. Buccaneers are capable of getting 2 of them, and with only that many, they can give their team the equivalent of a 9-round Levi's Call for all the Swash is concerned. Swashes will be stuck doing only half damage for 9 whole rounds on any given companion. Tell me again: who has the advantage?

The only counter to that is poison, which cannot stack and does a maximum of 250 damage per turn.That's a pretty small fraction of their health, and it won't stop them from killing the companions. Only a scratch buff would make it actually viable, but Swashes rarely use him. Or they could use Musk companions, but with the exception of Bonnie and Nausica (for the people who bought her), we don't have any good Musk companions, and if you can beat a Musk Pirate, you could definitely beat that.

Now this conversation has gotten off topic. The point is: Making Turn the Tide (1 or 2) available for Training Point(s) will not break the game. Swashes will not suddenly become the best class. They'll simply be dodgier. It's especially not going to make them any more powerful considering how criticals work currently. From what I've seen, critical strikes ignore accuracy and dodge. The program simply asks, "will this strike critical?" if yes, it criticals, if no, then it asks if it'll hit. considering how much a Buck can critical when hopped up on strength buffs, this will murder any Swash regardless of their dodge. I've fought a Buck, and while my Elusive 3 was active, he got a chain of 3 criticals on me, and because it was late game, all my protection cards were used up. You can guess how that ended. So please stop acting like making Turn the Tide available for TP's would break the game. Truth is, it won't. And if things keep going the way they are, Swashes might actually end up needing it.