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Poison vs Resist

AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 16, 2015 wrote:
1)That statement is dubious at best as I have never seen this rate of critical.
2)How is that OP?
3)One of it's versions can and only one copy is available to swash's in game
4)It is not a debuff so I would not expect dispel to affect it. Dispel does however remove the heal blocking portion of the spell.
5)It is also exempt from stat buff bonus and stacking-seems fair to me.
6)Scratch's power can boost MANY powers to ridiculous heights.

I agree that as it is currently it does not need to stack. However if the changes you propose are allowed then I fully expect it to be able to stack.
1) Woah wait a moment. YOUR the one that said you see it critical 33% of the time on your above threads. In your 100's of matches one of them always critical's. Your contradicting yourself. 33% and 1/3 are the same thing.

2)The one-two punch I am referring to is the ability to poison and follow that with an attack that does x2 damage. So essentially your going 710-1580 dot, FOLLOWED by an attack that does 1600 with bleeding. Even if you have a shield up it doesn't help with the bleeding and certainly not the poison and still does 800+ damage anyway. That is OP because you shouldn't get to do both. You should poison before you cast cloak or after you assassin and cloak is down. Doing both is what makes it OP. ((I would refer you to my other thread but an arrogant highly ignorant kid got in my face and I shut him down so they closed the thread. *shrugs*))

3)You only need one. As I mentioned the one-punch above...if you throw not being able to heal for 5 rounds ontop of that combo. You make it so there is NO WINDOW in which to recover. You basically ensure the win. They can't heal and even if they try to shield up it is too late. You can do back to back hits and the bleeding and poison will be enough to finish off whatever health the poor opponent had left.

4) I dont need explanation I understand WHY it doesn't work that way. I am saying it is wrong. It should remove all negative effect including damage over time stuff.

5) Except you can boost its critical directly with shadow dance which while individualized IS stronger than the ones privy cast. So its not quite as fair as you wanna think it is.

6) This point is irrelevant. Scratch is supposed to boost other spells. He is a witch doctor so for him to boost will based pirates that makes sense. If your gonna make this point It should be against scratches boosts in general. Or you could make case that he can ONLY boost will people and thus make it so muskets or bucklers dont benefit.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 16, 2015 wrote:
1)That statement is dubious at best as I have never seen this rate of critical.
2)How is that OP?
3)One of it's versions can and only one copy is available to swash's in game
4)It is not a debuff so I would not expect dispel to affect it. Dispel does however remove the heal blocking portion of the spell.
5)It is also exempt from stat buff bonus and stacking-seems fair to me.
6)Scratch's power can boost MANY powers to ridiculous heights.

I agree that as it is currently it does not need to stack. However if the changes you propose are allowed then I fully expect it to be able to stack.
Your guy's solution is worse than the fix. Making poison stack? Then if they make poison stack I would argue that bleeding shouldn't stack on top of poison. One type of dot at a time. Otherwise they could assassin poison assassin poison. All in the space of one set of shield and that would be the game.

That or reduce its damage significantly. Like maybe 100 damage for 5 rounds. Then stacking would be acceptable.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 18, 2015 wrote:
1) Woah wait a moment. YOUR the one that said you see it critical 33% of the time on your above threads. In your 100's of matches one of them always critical's. Your contradicting yourself. 33% and 1/3 are the same thing.

2)The one-two punch I am referring to is the ability to poison and follow that with an attack that does x2 damage. So essentially your going 710-1580 dot, FOLLOWED by an attack that does 1600 with bleeding. Even if you have a shield up it doesn't help with the bleeding and certainly not the poison and still does 800+ damage anyway. That is OP because you shouldn't get to do both. You should poison before you cast cloak or after you assassin and cloak is down. Doing both is what makes it OP. ((I would refer you to my other thread but an arrogant highly ignorant kid got in my face and I shut him down so they closed the thread. *shrugs*))

3)You only need one. As I mentioned the one-punch above...if you throw not being able to heal for 5 rounds ontop of that combo. You make it so there is NO WINDOW in which to recover. You basically ensure the win. They can't heal and even if they try to shield up it is too late. You can do back to back hits and the bleeding and poison will be enough to finish off whatever health the poor opponent had left.

4) I dont need explanation I understand WHY it doesn't work that way. I am saying it is wrong. It should remove all negative effect including damage over time stuff.

5) Except you can boost its critical directly with shadow dance which while individualized IS stronger than the ones privy cast. So its not quite as fair as you wanna think it is.

6) This point is irrelevant. Scratch is supposed to boost other spells. He is a witch doctor so for him to boost will based pirates that makes sense. If your gonna make this point It should be against scratches boosts in general. Or you could make case that he can ONLY boost will people and thus make it so muskets or bucklers dont benefit.
1)Lol Eric Stormbringer =/= Deathwiz101378. He said he has seen that rate of critical. I have not-not even close.

2)Except for Valors armor and Valors fortress which absorbs all that damage.

3)Or my opponent can be smart and hide and shield while he waits out the heal debuff. Or he can use dispel magic.

4)I disagree

5)And yet any other class can improve their critical rate and damage and chain chance of their entire team multiple times during a match and at up to 25% (the critical rate of both shadow dances combined)

6)Scratch is supposed to boost spell power-which is exactly what he does. I have no problem with scrath's boosts-you do.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 18, 2015 wrote:
Your guy's solution is worse than the fix. Making poison stack? Then if they make poison stack I would argue that bleeding shouldn't stack on top of poison. One type of dot at a time. Otherwise they could assassin poison assassin poison. All in the space of one set of shield and that would be the game.

That or reduce its damage significantly. Like maybe 100 damage for 5 rounds. Then stacking would be acceptable.
Or the solution is to leave things as is since you still have not proven the swashbuckler class or its tools to be OP.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:
Or the solution is to leave things as is since you still have not proven the swashbuckler class or its tools to be OP.
Proven? You do realize this is all personal experience and opinions right? I am sharing what I have seen from personal experience. Am I supposed to get screen shots from everyone? I dont work for KI so I dont have numbers. (Although I HAVE asked for them a couple of times) All I can tell you is what I have seen from personal experience. The bucklers with the 4 things I mentioned on my other thread can't be beaten without seriously luck and/or mistakes on their part. End of story. If that is not over powered then you and I have very different definitions of what that means.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:
Proven? You do realize this is all personal experience and opinions right? I am sharing what I have seen from personal experience. Am I supposed to get screen shots from everyone? I dont work for KI so I dont have numbers. (Although I HAVE asked for them a couple of times) All I can tell you is what I have seen from personal experience. The bucklers with the 4 things I mentioned on my other thread can't be beaten without seriously luck and/or mistakes on their part. End of story. If that is not over powered then you and I have very different definitions of what that means.
Clearly our definitions are very different if your definition of OP is someone who:

-Has perfect gear
-Has perfect companions
-Plays a mistake free game
-Has favorable RNG.

Hmm that sounds like a skillful player...not an OP class.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
I want to point out that Poison does NOT hit with Magical damage, so Resist shouldn't be a factor here. I double-checked in game, and the numbers are red when Poison deals damage which indicates Physical, not Magical, damage. If this is the case, Armor should be the proper form of defense but technically this doesn't make sense. I can understand Poison dealing Physical damage as it isn't technically Magical, it's the same as Bleeding in the sense of Poison coursing through your opponent's veins and causing steady DoT until your body is able to overcome it (irl this is ridiculous I know but in game it makes sense). Summoning lightning to strike your enemy, or using Spark Throwers that generate electricity, is elemental and makes sense when those types of attacks deal Magical damage (for example).

As for Poison, it should be dealing steady, direct damage over time same as Bleeding. If it absolutely must be resisted in some way or another, then it needs to be changed to register as Magical damage. This way Resistance also acts as your body 'resisting' the Poison.

Just my input, honestly since Poison can't stack and can't be boosted with our Hides or any other means without acquiring a third party (Old Scratch for example) I see no issue with it. By default we only have 3, one lasts 3 turns while the other 2 last five with the latter preventing healing at the same time. Shouldn't Dispel or whatever it's called work on curing this? It would be wise to save it for when the worst Poison is used so you can cleanse off the anti-heal.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
Nightblood1995 on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:
I want to point out that Poison does NOT hit with Magical damage, so Resist shouldn't be a factor here. I double-checked in game, and the numbers are red when Poison deals damage which indicates Physical, not Magical, damage. If this is the case, Armor should be the proper form of defense but technically this doesn't make sense. I can understand Poison dealing Physical damage as it isn't technically Magical, it's the same as Bleeding in the sense of Poison coursing through your opponent's veins and causing steady DoT until your body is able to overcome it (irl this is ridiculous I know but in game it makes sense). Summoning lightning to strike your enemy, or using Spark Throwers that generate electricity, is elemental and makes sense when those types of attacks deal Magical damage (for example).

As for Poison, it should be dealing steady, direct damage over time same as Bleeding. If it absolutely must be resisted in some way or another, then it needs to be changed to register as Magical damage. This way Resistance also acts as your body 'resisting' the Poison.

Just my input, honestly since Poison can't stack and can't be boosted with our Hides or any other means without acquiring a third party (Old Scratch for example) I see no issue with it. By default we only have 3, one lasts 3 turns while the other 2 last five with the latter preventing healing at the same time. Shouldn't Dispel or whatever it's called work on curing this? It would be wise to save it for when the worst Poison is used so you can cleanse off the anti-heal.
I'm beginning to believe that Poison is a chemical attack. Dispel Magic will remove the non-healing curse.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
anecorbie on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:
I'm beginning to believe that Poison is a chemical attack. Dispel Magic will remove the non-healing curse.
Agreed, that would make complete sense. Love your thinking Anecorbie!

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Nightblood1995 on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:
I want to point out that Poison does NOT hit with Magical damage, so Resist shouldn't be a factor here. I double-checked in game, and the numbers are red when Poison deals damage which indicates Physical, not Magical, damage. If this is the case, Armor should be the proper form of defense but technically this doesn't make sense. I can understand Poison dealing Physical damage as it isn't technically Magical, it's the same as Bleeding in the sense of Poison coursing through your opponent's veins and causing steady DoT until your body is able to overcome it (irl this is ridiculous I know but in game it makes sense). Summoning lightning to strike your enemy, or using Spark Throwers that generate electricity, is elemental and makes sense when those types of attacks deal Magical damage (for example).

As for Poison, it should be dealing steady, direct damage over time same as Bleeding. If it absolutely must be resisted in some way or another, then it needs to be changed to register as Magical damage. This way Resistance also acts as your body 'resisting' the Poison.

Just my input, honestly since Poison can't stack and can't be boosted with our Hides or any other means without acquiring a third party (Old Scratch for example) I see no issue with it. By default we only have 3, one lasts 3 turns while the other 2 last five with the latter preventing healing at the same time. Shouldn't Dispel or whatever it's called work on curing this? It would be wise to save it for when the worst Poison is used so you can cleanse off the anti-heal.
I certainly think dispel should work on poison. That makes the most sense to me.

It CAN be boosted by shadow dance which is a very effective critical booster. A critical poison is devastating even if scratch hasn't powered it up. And with no sort of armor or resist effecting its all the more lethal.

Dont forget gear. Most bucklers carry the moo tower totem and ring BOTH of which carry and EXTRA poison on top of the 3 a buckler already knows. Granted this is just my standard observations of the top ranked bucklers. Others can of course you different gear configurations. I am merely asking you not use it as part of your argument since it "usually" doesnt apply.

Chemical attack? So we are putting poison in its own category? People have already explained in this thread WHY poison isn't affected by anything. I am not asking for the explanation. What I am saying is that regardless of the reason that doesnt seem fair. Resist OR armor need to affect it. I dont care which. Resist makes more sense but making armor stop it too would reduce a bucklers ability to do dual damage.

True it cant stack but it criticals frequently. (note: you have to mouse over your pirate every time or you wont see the critical cause for some reason there is no special animation. But it does critical quite a lot) It might not be as bad as you guys say if it had NO CHANCE of criticalling. But it does and so does the bleeding from assassin strike. Layering those too dot's on top of each other is highly effective and destroying any opponent. And with purge still in the mix...even throwing up a players limited armor or absorbs to protect yourself isnt even an option, and odds are you cant heal either if they used the curse poison AND another hit is coming while your just dealing with the dot's. Good luck. Sounds OP to me? If not poison thats OP then its purge.

At any rate poison and purge are the two things I have an issue with. And I REALLY hope KI fixes a least one of them.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:
I certainly think dispel should work on poison. That makes the most sense to me.

It CAN be boosted by shadow dance which is a very effective critical booster. A critical poison is devastating even if scratch hasn't powered it up. And with no sort of armor or resist effecting its all the more lethal.

Dont forget gear. Most bucklers carry the moo tower totem and ring BOTH of which carry and EXTRA poison on top of the 3 a buckler already knows. Granted this is just my standard observations of the top ranked bucklers. Others can of course you different gear configurations. I am merely asking you not use it as part of your argument since it "usually" doesnt apply.

Chemical attack? So we are putting poison in its own category? People have already explained in this thread WHY poison isn't affected by anything. I am not asking for the explanation. What I am saying is that regardless of the reason that doesnt seem fair. Resist OR armor need to affect it. I dont care which. Resist makes more sense but making armor stop it too would reduce a bucklers ability to do dual damage.

True it cant stack but it criticals frequently. (note: you have to mouse over your pirate every time or you wont see the critical cause for some reason there is no special animation. But it does critical quite a lot) It might not be as bad as you guys say if it had NO CHANCE of criticalling. But it does and so does the bleeding from assassin strike. Layering those too dot's on top of each other is highly effective and destroying any opponent. And with purge still in the mix...even throwing up a players limited armor or absorbs to protect yourself isnt even an option, and odds are you cant heal either if they used the curse poison AND another hit is coming while your just dealing with the dot's. Good luck. Sounds OP to me? If not poison thats OP then its purge.

At any rate poison and purge are the two things I have an issue with. And I REALLY hope KI fixes a least one of them.
Cool if resist and armor affects poison I nominate it receive buffs from agility and be stackable. If it removes me from hide I nominate it do x2 damage. Bleeding from assassins strike can NOT critical.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:
I certainly think dispel should work on poison. That makes the most sense to me.

It CAN be boosted by shadow dance which is a very effective critical booster. A critical poison is devastating even if scratch hasn't powered it up. And with no sort of armor or resist effecting its all the more lethal.

Dont forget gear. Most bucklers carry the moo tower totem and ring BOTH of which carry and EXTRA poison on top of the 3 a buckler already knows. Granted this is just my standard observations of the top ranked bucklers. Others can of course you different gear configurations. I am merely asking you not use it as part of your argument since it "usually" doesnt apply.

Chemical attack? So we are putting poison in its own category? People have already explained in this thread WHY poison isn't affected by anything. I am not asking for the explanation. What I am saying is that regardless of the reason that doesnt seem fair. Resist OR armor need to affect it. I dont care which. Resist makes more sense but making armor stop it too would reduce a bucklers ability to do dual damage.

True it cant stack but it criticals frequently. (note: you have to mouse over your pirate every time or you wont see the critical cause for some reason there is no special animation. But it does critical quite a lot) It might not be as bad as you guys say if it had NO CHANCE of criticalling. But it does and so does the bleeding from assassin strike. Layering those too dot's on top of each other is highly effective and destroying any opponent. And with purge still in the mix...even throwing up a players limited armor or absorbs to protect yourself isnt even an option, and odds are you cant heal either if they used the curse poison AND another hit is coming while your just dealing with the dot's. Good luck. Sounds OP to me? If not poison thats OP then its purge.

At any rate poison and purge are the two things I have an issue with. And I REALLY hope KI fixes a least one of them.
I did state "By Default" meaning exclusion of gear and pets; those two factors are variable not static. I know I personally don't like to utilize "popular" builds lest I literally have no other choice; stats/Talents are more important to me than Powers.

Anecorbie and I were speculating and thinking out loud, none of that is even argumentative. Technically, nothing I said was argumentative aside from the latter quarter of my post. It was an observation and we were talking to one another about something that intrigued us.

If you feel so strongly that Resist/Armor should effect Poison, then the same should be said about Traps and Bleed (which completely eliminates the use of Alert for Swashes).

I do wish Poison had its own Critical animation or at least stated what type of Critical took place instead of being sly about it. But Criticals themselves are a part of strategy, removing it from a specific Power is no different than handicapping a class against other classes. Heals can Critical, what gives them an exception? Because they're a positive Poison? (That was an actual debatable response, btw)

I have already addressed Purge on that thread, this is about Poison vs. Resist; I'm keeping on topic with this thread.

It's already been stated that Poison is not effected by Shadow's Dance since Poison runs off of Spooky, not our main stat which influences your Critical rate to begin with. If someone's Poison Criticals often it's because of their Agility, not their boosted Critical. The Critical rate for Poison has always been 1/3 of a chance for Epic, Mega or Super from what I've witnessed/heard.

Buckler uses Hide, use your Absorb/Armor. Buckler uses Poison and Crits, hit Buckler with AoE or Buff Strength/Will. Buckler uses Assassin's Strike, breaks your defenses, dealing damage; hit them with your hardest hit available. Heal when they return to Hide or Dispel. Either way, you have to think ahead and be prepared to strike a Buckler when they're open and strike them HARD.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Nightblood1995 on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
I did state "By Default" meaning exclusion of gear and pets; those two factors are variable not static. I know I personally don't like to utilize "popular" builds lest I literally have no other choice; stats/Talents are more important to me than Powers.

Anecorbie and I were speculating and thinking out loud, none of that is even argumentative. Technically, nothing I said was argumentative aside from the latter quarter of my post. It was an observation and we were talking to one another about something that intrigued us.

If you feel so strongly that Resist/Armor should effect Poison, then the same should be said about Traps and Bleed (which completely eliminates the use of Alert for Swashes).

I do wish Poison had its own Critical animation or at least stated what type of Critical took place instead of being sly about it. But Criticals themselves are a part of strategy, removing it from a specific Power is no different than handicapping a class against other classes. Heals can Critical, what gives them an exception? Because they're a positive Poison? (That was an actual debatable response, btw)

I have already addressed Purge on that thread, this is about Poison vs. Resist; I'm keeping on topic with this thread.

It's already been stated that Poison is not effected by Shadow's Dance since Poison runs off of Spooky, not our main stat which influences your Critical rate to begin with. If someone's Poison Criticals often it's because of their Agility, not their boosted Critical. The Critical rate for Poison has always been 1/3 of a chance for Epic, Mega or Super from what I've witnessed/heard.

Buckler uses Hide, use your Absorb/Armor. Buckler uses Poison and Crits, hit Buckler with AoE or Buff Strength/Will. Buckler uses Assassin's Strike, breaks your defenses, dealing damage; hit them with your hardest hit available. Heal when they return to Hide or Dispel. Either way, you have to think ahead and be prepared to strike a Buckler when they're open and strike them HARD.
Buckler uses hide you use absorb or armor. And it is purged off

Buckler uses poison. And sure I hit back...assuming I am a witch or musket. But bucks dont have an AoE and privy ones are kinda of weak even with scratch boost. So their assassin does way more damage in this numbers game. Meanwhile bleeding and poison are still sucking health away. Lets "hope" neither criticaled

Heal when they return to hide. Oops I cant heal because I am cursed. And another hide x2 attack is on the way! Oh yeah and DoT's are still working since dispel doesnt remove them yet.

My point I have been making is the top ranked bucklers are impossible to beat because they anticipate people anticipating them lol. Its like a game of chess which makes this game so fun. Except...when your playing as a buckler its like you have 3 queens and several knights...where as others only have their army of pawns and a few rooks to fend them off. You can still win with only those pieces...but only if the buckler plays his pieces wrong.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
I know this is on the other thread. But I will add that if they decide not to change poison...the removal of purge at the very least from all but the witch school (making it a witch only spell) will at least stop over powering their other moves and give players who rely on their defense a partial chance once again.

I have made 2 main suggestions not TONS. Fix poison and make purge a witch only spell. Hopefully they do at least one of these. If not bucklers will remain over powered.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
Buckler uses hide you use absorb or armor. And it is purged off

Buckler uses poison. And sure I hit back...assuming I am a witch or musket. But bucks dont have an AoE and privy ones are kinda of weak even with scratch boost. So their assassin does way more damage in this numbers game. Meanwhile bleeding and poison are still sucking health away. Lets "hope" neither criticaled

Heal when they return to hide. Oops I cant heal because I am cursed. And another hide x2 attack is on the way! Oh yeah and DoT's are still working since dispel doesnt remove them yet.

My point I have been making is the top ranked bucklers are impossible to beat because they anticipate people anticipating them lol. Its like a game of chess which makes this game so fun. Except...when your playing as a buckler its like you have 3 queens and several knights...where as others only have their army of pawns and a few rooks to fend them off. You can still win with only those pieces...but only if the buckler plays his pieces wrong.
Looks like I'm going to have to explain my example as an example as well, and the many different variables and factors that goes into these scenarios.

If it's purged, use another absorb/armor (if you carry only one, then that's on you for not thinking ahead).

Weak or not, AoEs are AoEs and they will tick away at your opponent's health, eventually forcing them to heal. And since they can't be dodged, it's a great way for punching away at their HP without worrying about Elusive.

Dispel will remove Cursed, again another variable that people need to think ahead for. There is only one Power of ours with the ability to Curse, and Dispel removes that Curse. You already stated they Poisoned and Assassin-ed you, which means they're out of Hide. Bleed lasts 2 rounds, since my Swash currently does around 1200 with a Hidden Assassin and the Bleeding only does 100-something I don't believe Bleeding is an issue even if it does Crit. The round it is used counts as round 1, then you have your turn which activates it again and removes it. Poison is the one that lingers enough to be considered a threat. Anyways, since the Buckler just hit you with Assassin after Poison, they're vulnerable. They also have little to no defenses if done right, aside from Dodge, so Buccs should use this time to Reckless Frenzy or Vicious Charge them, since these are currently their heaviest hits. I guarantee you any Pro Swash won't risk another assault if their health is below half, this should give you enough time to correct yourself as well. You also have your and their Companions to add into the mix, another wild card.

Then you have the chance of a bad draw of Powers, which boils down to luck (another variable Ratbeard himself has stated to be a fundamental part of the game for us to master).

It is entirely possible to win a chess game with only your Pawns and King, if you understand Game Theory that is. Instead of asking for nerfs or crying OP, have you tried asking Pro Swashes to give you advice?

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
Buckler uses hide you use absorb or armor. And it is purged off

Buckler uses poison. And sure I hit back...assuming I am a witch or musket. But bucks dont have an AoE and privy ones are kinda of weak even with scratch boost. So their assassin does way more damage in this numbers game. Meanwhile bleeding and poison are still sucking health away. Lets "hope" neither criticaled

Heal when they return to hide. Oops I cant heal because I am cursed. And another hide x2 attack is on the way! Oh yeah and DoT's are still working since dispel doesnt remove them yet.

My point I have been making is the top ranked bucklers are impossible to beat because they anticipate people anticipating them lol. Its like a game of chess which makes this game so fun. Except...when your playing as a buckler its like you have 3 queens and several knights...where as others only have their army of pawns and a few rooks to fend them off. You can still win with only those pieces...but only if the buckler plays his pieces wrong.
Buckler Uses Hide-You use hide

Buckler uses poison-You use shield

Buckler returns to hide- Dispel magic

You know top ranked bucklers aren't impossible to beat. You yourself have done it and your buckler has also lost.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
I know this is on the other thread. But I will add that if they decide not to change poison...the removal of purge at the very least from all but the witch school (making it a witch only spell) will at least stop over powering their other moves and give players who rely on their defense a partial chance once again.

I have made 2 main suggestions not TONS. Fix poison and make purge a witch only spell. Hopefully they do at least one of these. If not bucklers will remain over powered.
Or they do neither and Buckler remains balanced.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
Buckler uses hide you use absorb or armor. And it is purged off

Buckler uses poison. And sure I hit back...assuming I am a witch or musket. But bucks dont have an AoE and privy ones are kinda of weak even with scratch boost. So their assassin does way more damage in this numbers game. Meanwhile bleeding and poison are still sucking health away. Lets "hope" neither criticaled

Heal when they return to hide. Oops I cant heal because I am cursed. And another hide x2 attack is on the way! Oh yeah and DoT's are still working since dispel doesnt remove them yet.

My point I have been making is the top ranked bucklers are impossible to beat because they anticipate people anticipating them lol. Its like a game of chess which makes this game so fun. Except...when your playing as a buckler its like you have 3 queens and several knights...where as others only have their army of pawns and a few rooks to fend them off. You can still win with only those pieces...but only if the buckler plays his pieces wrong.
"...are impossible to beat because they anticipate people anticipating them lol"
Well isn't that what makes a Champion a Champion, and any class can do this, too. If you know what they're going to do before they do it, you can anticipate and prepare.
Poison doesn't need fixing at all, it's not glitched nor 'broken', it is doing as was designed to do.

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Nightblood1995 on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
Looks like I'm going to have to explain my example as an example as well, and the many different variables and factors that goes into these scenarios.

If it's purged, use another absorb/armor (if you carry only one, then that's on you for not thinking ahead).

Weak or not, AoEs are AoEs and they will tick away at your opponent's health, eventually forcing them to heal. And since they can't be dodged, it's a great way for punching away at their HP without worrying about Elusive.

Dispel will remove Cursed, again another variable that people need to think ahead for. There is only one Power of ours with the ability to Curse, and Dispel removes that Curse. You already stated they Poisoned and Assassin-ed you, which means they're out of Hide. Bleed lasts 2 rounds, since my Swash currently does around 1200 with a Hidden Assassin and the Bleeding only does 100-something I don't believe Bleeding is an issue even if it does Crit. The round it is used counts as round 1, then you have your turn which activates it again and removes it. Poison is the one that lingers enough to be considered a threat. Anyways, since the Buckler just hit you with Assassin after Poison, they're vulnerable. They also have little to no defenses if done right, aside from Dodge, so Buccs should use this time to Reckless Frenzy or Vicious Charge them, since these are currently their heaviest hits. I guarantee you any Pro Swash won't risk another assault if their health is below half, this should give you enough time to correct yourself as well. You also have your and their Companions to add into the mix, another wild card.

Then you have the chance of a bad draw of Powers, which boils down to luck (another variable Ratbeard himself has stated to be a fundamental part of the game for us to master).

It is entirely possible to win a chess game with only your Pawns and King, if you understand Game Theory that is. Instead of asking for nerfs or crying OP, have you tried asking Pro Swashes to give you advice?
I have decided not to do this back and forth thing with people like you any more who are in denial. Except to repeat one thing I said on my other thread. I do NOT need to ask any pro's for advice. Do you really think I am saying all of this for MY SELF? No! In fact none of my "cries" for nerfing or about people being over powered are for me at all.

As shocking as it is I am saying all of this on OHTERS behalf. I know you all wanna think I am some sort of disgruntled noob whining about how hard things are but I have 3 champions this season and am working on a forth. I am saying all this for others. Because as I read these message boards I seem to find an over flow of bucklers saying how they need even more than they already have. Yet in the game I hear nothing but complaints from all the little noobs and friends of mine who struggle all of which say "purge is too strong" "how do i get past layered dot's". I give them as much advice as I can but the fact of the matter is the buckler school has the odds stacked in their favor. (Purge increases those lopsided odds even further)

Now I HAVE added my own experience with this as well. And yes it is quite the obstacle. Can it be over come? Maybe if you get lucky or you make a list of all the bucklers you have lost to in the past that carry purge. Lame yes but its the only way to stand a chance against those over powered players. In the end I found the best way to over come them is to find a friend and work together to past the paragon-champion barrier.

Just thought I would clear that up so my posts seem less like whining and more like the objective and unbiased comments that they are.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9304
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 24, 2015 wrote:
I have decided not to do this back and forth thing with people like you any more who are in denial. Except to repeat one thing I said on my other thread. I do NOT need to ask any pro's for advice. Do you really think I am saying all of this for MY SELF? No! In fact none of my "cries" for nerfing or about people being over powered are for me at all.

As shocking as it is I am saying all of this on OHTERS behalf. I know you all wanna think I am some sort of disgruntled noob whining about how hard things are but I have 3 champions this season and am working on a forth. I am saying all this for others. Because as I read these message boards I seem to find an over flow of bucklers saying how they need even more than they already have. Yet in the game I hear nothing but complaints from all the little noobs and friends of mine who struggle all of which say "purge is too strong" "how do i get past layered dot's". I give them as much advice as I can but the fact of the matter is the buckler school has the odds stacked in their favor. (Purge increases those lopsided odds even further)

Now I HAVE added my own experience with this as well. And yes it is quite the obstacle. Can it be over come? Maybe if you get lucky or you make a list of all the bucklers you have lost to in the past that carry purge. Lame yes but its the only way to stand a chance against those over powered players. In the end I found the best way to over come them is to find a friend and work together to past the paragon-champion barrier.

Just thought I would clear that up so my posts seem less like whining and more like the objective and unbiased comments that they are.
"In Denial?" not so, telling the truth and giving the best advice we can so that you can learn to deal with this so-called insurmountable problem? Yes, and Eric has given you many examples and great advice, I've learned a lot from his posts in reply to yours.
You seem to be the only one complaining. From the very beginning up to this point in time, with this post and the "The Real problem with swashbucklers", all you have done is complain about swashbuckler's abilities. Where is the 'over-flow' of complaints? Black Fog posts? No longer an issue, even those who have originally posted have admitted this.
How kind that you're concerned for your friends and 'noobs' who can't deal with SBs powers; how altruistic and maybe your complaints will stir KI devs into changing things to make PVP easier for you ( this, I suspect, is your true motive ). There are plenty of posts here and on Central discussing strategies and gear to deal with SBs and other classes.
"Objective and unbiased?" Hardly.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 24, 2015 wrote:
I have decided not to do this back and forth thing with people like you any more who are in denial. Except to repeat one thing I said on my other thread. I do NOT need to ask any pro's for advice. Do you really think I am saying all of this for MY SELF? No! In fact none of my "cries" for nerfing or about people being over powered are for me at all.

As shocking as it is I am saying all of this on OHTERS behalf. I know you all wanna think I am some sort of disgruntled noob whining about how hard things are but I have 3 champions this season and am working on a forth. I am saying all this for others. Because as I read these message boards I seem to find an over flow of bucklers saying how they need even more than they already have. Yet in the game I hear nothing but complaints from all the little noobs and friends of mine who struggle all of which say "purge is too strong" "how do i get past layered dot's". I give them as much advice as I can but the fact of the matter is the buckler school has the odds stacked in their favor. (Purge increases those lopsided odds even further)

Now I HAVE added my own experience with this as well. And yes it is quite the obstacle. Can it be over come? Maybe if you get lucky or you make a list of all the bucklers you have lost to in the past that carry purge. Lame yes but its the only way to stand a chance against those over powered players. In the end I found the best way to over come them is to find a friend and work together to past the paragon-champion barrier.

Just thought I would clear that up so my posts seem less like whining and more like the objective and unbiased comments that they are.
(Internet is unstable, if there's multiple replies sorry)

You're clearly the only one in denial if you can't see how you're the only one ranting about "Bucklers this...Bucklers that...". If other people have an issue they can come voice their opinions themselves, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Basic psychology. If they can Rank PvP, then they can access these forums. NO excuse. Especially when the forums are where Kingsisle receives much of its feedback compared to in-game.

I believe we can close this thread now, considering it is no longer constructive. This was just retaliatory. I have contributed a rather valuable bit of information concerning what type of damage Poison does and others have contributed info regarding the fact that you can't increase Poison's Critical rate, Anecorbie also contributed a rather intuitive tidbit about how and why Poison functions the way it does. All I've seen from you is why you're right and we're wrong, instead of looking into the details like the rest of us. This is nothing short of a tantrum, you get proven wrong and feel the need to snap at people or sound bigger than them. If you put your time and effort into formulating more intuitive responses rather than simply "This is what happened to me so this has to be why" then you never would have came off as whining or complaining. By the way: an unbiased comment is grammatically impossible. Comments are opinion or personally based, unbiased is remaining neutral to all sides and things. You cannot be unbiased to your own opinion, that is an oxymoron. You are clearly against Bucklers, whether it be big or small.

Purge has been addressed in its proper thread, and you clearly forgot that I'm the one that suggest the Witch-only solution. If I am in denial, then I guess my solution is null and void since I'm not 'on your side'.

If you don't need pro advice, then you must be a pro yourself. In that case, share your pro advice with your friends. Problem solved. Have fun and good luck.

Gunner's Mate
Jan 27, 2011
222
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
I know this is on the other thread. But I will add that if they decide not to change poison...the removal of purge at the very least from all but the witch school (making it a witch only spell) will at least stop over powering their other moves and give players who rely on their defense a partial chance once again.

I have made 2 main suggestions not TONS. Fix poison and make purge a witch only spell. Hopefully they do at least one of these. If not bucklers will remain over powered.
I just realized something that I never got to point out:

"...the removal of purge at the very least from all but the witch school (making it a witch only spell) will at least stop overpowering their other moves and give players who rely on their defense a partial chance once again..."

So you're saying you want to rely on your defense WHILE dishing out the hurt? If you're going to rely on your defense, then that's ALL you're going to have going for you. You may be that one immortal wall, but you will take forever to kill someone. On the flip side, if you rely on your offense your chance of landing one-hit kills is exponentially high, but as soon as your opponent gets even a scratch in you're toast. You cannot focus on one end of the spectrum and expect to pull off the other at the same time, THAT is overpowered.

Be a tank or be a hitter, or balance it out between the two and have a little less/more of one or the other, but having your cake and eating it too will never happen.

With that, I think all points have been made and addressed. Have fun in the Brawl Hall and just remember: this is just a game. If you're not going to log on to have fun then why log on at all? Winning doesn't constitute fun either, it's memories and good times that constitute fun. So let loose and have fun!

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
So the results are in. I go my buckler to champion last week. It took a little while to calibrate my deck and figure out how to get past those with sent pets but in the end it wasn't really a problem. (I am more than happy to screen shot it for anyone.)

So here is my conclusion. Bucklers are balanced IF and ONLY IF they don't have purge.

Poison: It is still super strong (especially with the scratch boost) but if you have the forts and absorbs and maybe a cloak to counter it you CAN survive. If those things are stripped from you however then I did way too much damage with absolutely NO WAY to counter it. I still think poison should follow the rules of resist or armor, and making it remove cloak seems fair to me but I realize KI doesnt like to nerf things that much so whatever. But on that note most of the wins I got were cause I could poison from the shadows and follow up with a cloaked assassin. The bleeding poison combo was so powerful that it almost always killed or got them super close. And the only times it failed were if I miss timed when to use the curse poison vs the other ones.

Fog: Fog does still give players a massive advantage. But again so long as my opponent was allowed to armor up they did have a chance. Or at least some of their team mates did. In almost every case half their team was dead off the get go and they still had to fight from a disadvantage. Defeating a buckler is still very tough without purge. However if I can strip away that armor and rush my guys in same turn. Then that is again too strong.

I tried out purge with my own sprocket key and I decimated everyone! And I dont even have Nausica on my buckler. Mega poisons and team rushes were ramped up and became so strong that it literally tore everyone apart. And as for "running to avoid purge" in most cases if I assumed that they would run I could set it up so they had no chance to do so. The only ones I really struggled against were OTHER bucklers.

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Nov 6, 2015 wrote:
So the results are in. I go my buckler to champion last week. It took a little while to calibrate my deck and figure out how to get past those with sent pets but in the end it wasn't really a problem. (I am more than happy to screen shot it for anyone.)

So here is my conclusion. Bucklers are balanced IF and ONLY IF they don't have purge.

Poison: It is still super strong (especially with the scratch boost) but if you have the forts and absorbs and maybe a cloak to counter it you CAN survive. If those things are stripped from you however then I did way too much damage with absolutely NO WAY to counter it. I still think poison should follow the rules of resist or armor, and making it remove cloak seems fair to me but I realize KI doesnt like to nerf things that much so whatever. But on that note most of the wins I got were cause I could poison from the shadows and follow up with a cloaked assassin. The bleeding poison combo was so powerful that it almost always killed or got them super close. And the only times it failed were if I miss timed when to use the curse poison vs the other ones.

Fog: Fog does still give players a massive advantage. But again so long as my opponent was allowed to armor up they did have a chance. Or at least some of their team mates did. In almost every case half their team was dead off the get go and they still had to fight from a disadvantage. Defeating a buckler is still very tough without purge. However if I can strip away that armor and rush my guys in same turn. Then that is again too strong.

I tried out purge with my own sprocket key and I decimated everyone! And I dont even have Nausica on my buckler. Mega poisons and team rushes were ramped up and became so strong that it literally tore everyone apart. And as for "running to avoid purge" in most cases if I assumed that they would run I could set it up so they had no chance to do so. The only ones I really struggled against were OTHER bucklers.
So undefeated 1v1 buckler?

Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Eric Stormbringer on Nov 8, 2015 wrote:
So undefeated 1v1 buckler?
If you want me to screen shot I am more than welcome too. Though I dont know how on these message boards. I dont see any attachment option. Tell me how to put them on here and ill do so :)

I did NOT make it undefeated but then this was my first time doing ranked pvp with my buckler. As I expected MOST of all the losses I did endure were caused by OTHER bucklers. A few came because I calibrating my deck for the first time and figuring out how to get past scent pets and so on. But for the most part they were bucklers.

The important part of all this was that I made it to champion WITHOUT using the purge amulet. And with relative ease for a "buckler noobie." I had of course pvped with him before but not very much and not ranked. And yup bucklers dont need purge to make it to champion. Not only that but making it to champion as a buckler was WAY easier then getting any of my other pirates there. Since then I have done some practice pvp matches WITH my purge amulet and I tear people appart. Either right away from a rush or later on cause I forced them to burn through defenses too fast.

Purge on a buckler is over powered and not necessary to reach champion. And that is all there is to it.