Help with the Hidden powers

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
Hello,

I was wondering if anyone can spare some good advice in how to successfully counter hidden power?

As I am climbing up the PvP rank ladder I am almost every time getting Swash as an opponent; 70% of my opponents are Swashbucklers.

I got out of my comfort zone as a witchdoctor, made changes to my gear, companions I choose and their epics.

I can say for certainty that somehow I manage to counter Black Fog.

I started using Friar Sand's Gourd that gives Leviathan Call, Spirit Walker's Charm that gives Valor's Armor (1380 Absorb thanks to my spell power), Phule's Mask that gives Walk in Darkness, and many other useful tools.

I noticed that even hidden enemies are effected by Hold the Line (because my Hidden Kan Po always get intercepted by Hold the Line), so I am using Terror-Cotta Summons (unfortunately they don't stop hidden enemies with Hold the Line, not sure if that is a bug or not).

Also I am using Rateard with FS3.

My play style has been drastically improved when it comes to other classes, but still not quite effective against Swashes.

I don't use the pet with scent because, when whole opponents team is hidden, he is going to the corners and isn't that much effective.

As I said before, I manage to counter Black Fog without any serious casualties, but my problem comes after that. I manage to take out the opponents companions but I can't do anything against the player himself. He uses hidden again, boosts, heals and then deals the significant blow that cripples my team to the point where i can't fight back.

Melee unit are useless because of Swashe's First Strike and Riposte (Swashes pack some serious dodge). I can do AoE but I can't deal situation changing damage.

I can Absorb or Heal (I can't heal if I am cursed by Assassin's Shroud), but Swash removes Absorb in one hit or kills me if I used Heal instead of Absorb.

My Absorb is removed and Swash is visible. Now that we are out in the open again, Swash hides again, kills me, or toy with me, because I am useless at this point.

My question is, did anyone found any useful counters against Hidden abilities? If did so, please post on this thread.

I also hope that Ratbeard chip in with some wise advice.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman

Petty Officer
Dec 21, 2008
55
This has been the general trend with Swashbucklers and even other Swashbucklers have complained about facing their class.

Duelist101's Swashbuckler author Eric Stormbringer has been active in the discussion on fixing Black Fog, and noted that the current "fix" is not at all a solution.

Typically, Swashes target the pirate, and only other Swashbucklers can get the third version of their preemptive strike, so the First Strike / Quick Draw / Intuition option isn't effect. Even if pirates could train it, the Swash then simply targets companions of a different attack type. The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

I have found that the best solution to hide is hide. Hide your pirate with Walk in Shadows. A decent Swashbuckler will still knock out one or two of your companions with Fog, and there's nothing you can do about it since they're hidden and you lose your natural advantage of range and AoEs as a Witchdoctor, but at least it'll give you more of a chance.

Assuming Ratbeard has spent a sizeable amount of time in the arena, I'm curious to see his proposed tactics as well. No matter how indirect or creative, I have yet to see a truly effect counter to this power.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Swordroll on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
This has been the general trend with Swashbucklers and even other Swashbucklers have complained about facing their class.

Duelist101's Swashbuckler author Eric Stormbringer has been active in the discussion on fixing Black Fog, and noted that the current "fix" is not at all a solution.

Typically, Swashes target the pirate, and only other Swashbucklers can get the third version of their preemptive strike, so the First Strike / Quick Draw / Intuition option isn't effect. Even if pirates could train it, the Swash then simply targets companions of a different attack type. The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

I have found that the best solution to hide is hide. Hide your pirate with Walk in Shadows. A decent Swashbuckler will still knock out one or two of your companions with Fog, and there's nothing you can do about it since they're hidden and you lose your natural advantage of range and AoEs as a Witchdoctor, but at least it'll give you more of a chance.

Assuming Ratbeard has spent a sizeable amount of time in the arena, I'm curious to see his proposed tactics as well. No matter how indirect or creative, I have yet to see a truly effect counter to this power.
Very good points and for privateers its even worse we can't use hide because of repel borders will trigger and we will remove it and I swear poison is the bane of me I end up discarding like 4 revives and later end up wishing I had some

Developer
The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

One might suggest, perhaps, playing differently then.

Gunner's Mate
May 13, 2009
228
Ratbeard on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

One might suggest, perhaps, playing differently then.
We don't need more counters! The powers need to be toned down. There really isn't much else to say, but by having too many counters for hide, it can get confusing for both teams. A couple possibilities:
  1. Lose a third of damage dealt
  2. Lowers your movement to half

End of story!.The player using the hide needs to feel some pain too!

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Though it isn't entirely ideal, maybe you can bring a team that all have first strike 3 trained, and hide/shield your pirate if he isn't a buckler or a MELEE CLASS WHO INVESTED IN TRAINING FIRST STRIKE 3 hint hint (yes it is possible, Pet Talent+Gear). I fought another buckler who did this swashbuckler companions of his and it basically made my fog useless in terms of x2 damage on any unit at all.

Now making your pirate get first strike 3 with the gear/pet talents in game, even if you have to use a combo weapon for ranged classes, is up to the person, but I can say that it is definitely a 100% viable solution to facing black fog. If you can't hit someone with x2 damage the only thing you get from Fog really is 5 rounds to position around the board to perhaps a more preferable arrangement of units.

Oh my, did I just find a completely viable "counter" to Fog? Maybe I should have waited just to see more complaints before someone realized there is an answer right there, you just have to think for a second and put 2 and 2 together. Yes, you'd sacrifice a few powers, but wouldn't one rather lose those powers than every single match they do against a swashbuckler?

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

One might suggest, perhaps, playing differently then.
How do you approach it? O:

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Swordroll on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
This has been the general trend with Swashbucklers and even other Swashbucklers have complained about facing their class.

Duelist101's Swashbuckler author Eric Stormbringer has been active in the discussion on fixing Black Fog, and noted that the current "fix" is not at all a solution.

Typically, Swashes target the pirate, and only other Swashbucklers can get the third version of their preemptive strike, so the First Strike / Quick Draw / Intuition option isn't effect. Even if pirates could train it, the Swash then simply targets companions of a different attack type. The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

I have found that the best solution to hide is hide. Hide your pirate with Walk in Shadows. A decent Swashbuckler will still knock out one or two of your companions with Fog, and there's nothing you can do about it since they're hidden and you lose your natural advantage of range and AoEs as a Witchdoctor, but at least it'll give you more of a chance.

Assuming Ratbeard has spent a sizeable amount of time in the arena, I'm curious to see his proposed tactics as well. No matter how indirect or creative, I have yet to see a truly effect counter to this power.
Lol. I haven't met any Bucklers who say..."geez, I wish I wasn't so powerful'. I am fairly proficient with my Buckler and I am far from indestructible. I'll admit that I am not yet at the level one would call "pro"...but I'm getting there. If it takes being a master Buckler for Fog to be a problem, then you're safe from about 99% of the ones in the game now. I beat a couple Bucklers in ranked with my Musket so I know it can be done. I saw a post proposing that the issue be studied at the end of this season to see what percentage of a given class made it to Champion and if there were a disproportionate amount of Bucklers there, then a fix might be needed. I personally know people from each class who will reach Champion. Some already have. One last thing I'll say about the Buckler class and those hating on them right now...please don't forget how awful the class was before the Hidden fix and Fog came along. It was embarrassing for me to even walk past the Brawling Hall back then. Any fix (if it's needed) will have to leave the Buckler class intact. Try playing as a Buckler without using Fog and see how well you do. I know some players who may be able to achieve a limited amount of success without it, but for a novice, the other classes are much easier to play. Bucklers have a very limited arsenal and even fewer options when it comes to a plan of attack.

Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
Wolf SkullRider on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
Though it isn't entirely ideal, maybe you can bring a team that all have first strike 3 trained, and hide/shield your pirate if he isn't a buckler or a MELEE CLASS WHO INVESTED IN TRAINING FIRST STRIKE 3 hint hint (yes it is possible, Pet Talent+Gear). I fought another buckler who did this swashbuckler companions of his and it basically made my fog useless in terms of x2 damage on any unit at all.

Now making your pirate get first strike 3 with the gear/pet talents in game, even if you have to use a combo weapon for ranged classes, is up to the person, but I can say that it is definitely a 100% viable solution to facing black fog. If you can't hit someone with x2 damage the only thing you get from Fog really is 5 rounds to position around the board to perhaps a more preferable arrangement of units.

Oh my, did I just find a completely viable "counter" to Fog? Maybe I should have waited just to see more complaints before someone realized there is an answer right there, you just have to think for a second and put 2 and 2 together. Yes, you'd sacrifice a few powers, but wouldn't one rather lose those powers than every single match they do against a swashbuckler?
Oh yea. Great idea. I'm just going to go farm for the Eyes of the Cobra and the Metal Guardian's Blade for my Privateer/Buccaneer to counter Black Fog. Moreover, when I queue up for battle, I'll use all First Strike 3 companions.

What's wrong with this approach is the sacrifice of both damage and useful chaining abilities better weapons provide (e.g Staff of Power and Axe of the Minotaur Lords). Buccaneer captains are able to handle Swashbucklers reasonably well due to the overall strength of the captain (they are able to hide and use defensive buffs all while maintaining great combos with Blade Storm 3, Relentless 1/2, Follow Through, and Vengeance Strike 3). Privateers on the other hand simply cannot run all First Strike 3 companions because Bucklers can still chain with Sky Spirit/Cloud Spirit, and training FS3 places your entire team at a huge disadvantage vs any other class. We cannot be expected to bring a team that resists a power ONE class has. This could be a viable "counter" to Fog, but because we do not know who we are facing, it simply is not worth the risk. The sacrifice of power to obtain the Guardian Blade also places the captain at the huge disadvantage, as he or she may not be able to retaliate with enough strength against a fully decked Buckler with poisons, assassins, hides, forts, etc.

Non-melee classes can bring all FS3 companions, but again, while they are immune to Fog, they lose a lot of chaining potential against the Swashbuckler's companions.

Developer
Sunny Wolf on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
How do you approach it? O:
The following adjustments were made to the meta, almost all of which address hide in one manner or another:

1) Boosted almost all companion talent slots
2) Fixed the issue with FS3/QD3/QC3 not preventing Hide
3) Provided more companions who could train FS3/QD3/QC3
4) Provide more accessible pets with Grants FS3/QD3/QC3
5) Increase the size of the barricade to 5 spaces
6) Improve Scent
7) Forbiddance power
8) More obstacles on the board
9) Allowed defensive stacking
10) ... and NOT banning summons.

To paraphrase GK Chesterton, it's not that the solutions were tried and found wanting; they were found difficult, and not tried.

(Mostly not tried. Thank you to those who are trying and providing action reports.)

Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
Hello everyone,

Thank you for your time to reply to this thread.

@Wolf

I might not agree with your solution. You basically divided five classes into two different divisions - Swashbucklers, and wannabe Swashbucklers in order to counter.

I am Witchdoctor, and I don't want to give up on my staffy game play in order to acquire a sword and spent ages till I get FS3. Where is the diversity then? Do we all have to become Swashes in order to counter swashes? Why not we all play WITH Swashes and dismiss all other classes? I would like to think there is more to it.

@Ratbeard

I can't help but think there is some favoritism towards Swashbucklers and hidden powers. Nerfing Terror-Cottas and allowing Damage Protection Buff stack had far less outcry and the "fix" was delivered without a problem.

In order to learn Black Fog swashes need to be 65th level, which is something that will come naturally by questing.

In order to get Imperial Robe of Moo Manchu took me over 150 runs in the tower, which is several months of constant farming. It was the last Moo's piece I got from him and I really spent great deal of time there. So why easily agree to nerf Terror-Cotta's and so determined to leave Hidden abilities as they are?

From what I see here, all solutions are based that non buckler classes change their way of playing and become more like Buckler itself. Or set the companion epics as the Swashes are only class that needs countering in game, and even then it is not effective. My Witch will never have FS3 and QD3 and by that will never be able to un-hide the enemy before it hits.

I can't counter Swashes attack, I can only try to ease the blow, but all my efforts goes down to drain, when Swash hid again, buff, regenerate, and come at me again. And I am not able to take the hit so many times. I mean, the damage that Swash deals is over 1k plus the wound effect..

There has to be something else that would be a solution to everyone.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Hmm. Sorry to double post here, but I'm just not buying this whole Black Fog being impossible to defeat thing. I just beat a Buckler again with my Musket and then I beat another Buckler with my own Buckler. The opposing Buckler was able to use Fog first and hit my unshielded team. I survived and came back to win. One thing that helps me is knowing the range of every companion. When they fog, I decide which companion I am willing to sacrifice and move the others out of range. When they strike, they are then vulnerable to units that, unlike themselves, are shielded and buffed. It's rare for a Buckler to be able to hide his team, shield and buff them and still have time to get them across the board to attack. In their hurry to benefit from the double damage, they sometimes sacrifice those things and lose out on the chains of epics, which in my opinion, are more deadly than Black Fog.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Wolf SkullRider on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
Though it isn't entirely ideal, maybe you can bring a team that all have first strike 3 trained, and hide/shield your pirate if he isn't a buckler or a MELEE CLASS WHO INVESTED IN TRAINING FIRST STRIKE 3 hint hint (yes it is possible, Pet Talent+Gear). I fought another buckler who did this swashbuckler companions of his and it basically made my fog useless in terms of x2 damage on any unit at all.

Now making your pirate get first strike 3 with the gear/pet talents in game, even if you have to use a combo weapon for ranged classes, is up to the person, but I can say that it is definitely a 100% viable solution to facing black fog. If you can't hit someone with x2 damage the only thing you get from Fog really is 5 rounds to position around the board to perhaps a more preferable arrangement of units.

Oh my, did I just find a completely viable "counter" to Fog? Maybe I should have waited just to see more complaints before someone realized there is an answer right there, you just have to think for a second and put 2 and 2 together. Yes, you'd sacrifice a few powers, but wouldn't one rather lose those powers than every single match they do against a swashbuckler?
While yes, this is a viable counter, it is really only effective for swashbucklers. The only others who could maybe use this strategy would be buccaneers, who (if they are not buying crown companions) would force them to use only swashbuckler companions, which really limits them when it comes to the Kraken's Coils line. It forces them to use a weapon that is 70+ damage less then the average epic weapon for the class, as well as preventing them from getting Flames of Corruption or Follow Through. This strategy also leaves you weak to other classes, such as the musketeer, who you now have 3 epics on your companions and yourself that will probably go completely unused the entire battle.

Ensign
May 23, 2015
33
Swordroll on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
This has been the general trend with Swashbucklers and even other Swashbucklers have complained about facing their class.

Duelist101's Swashbuckler author Eric Stormbringer has been active in the discussion on fixing Black Fog, and noted that the current "fix" is not at all a solution.

Typically, Swashes target the pirate, and only other Swashbucklers can get the third version of their preemptive strike, so the First Strike / Quick Draw / Intuition option isn't effect. Even if pirates could train it, the Swash then simply targets companions of a different attack type. The change had about zero effect on the way things are played.

I have found that the best solution to hide is hide. Hide your pirate with Walk in Shadows. A decent Swashbuckler will still knock out one or two of your companions with Fog, and there's nothing you can do about it since they're hidden and you lose your natural advantage of range and AoEs as a Witchdoctor, but at least it'll give you more of a chance.

Assuming Ratbeard has spent a sizeable amount of time in the arena, I'm curious to see his proposed tactics as well. No matter how indirect or creative, I have yet to see a truly effect counter to this power.
Hide for witches is pretty much useless with our automatic spell triggers. Any approaching enemy or one that is is moving away will cause cowards bane to trigger effectively taking us out of hide. No heal for you. Try again.

Lieutenant
Jun 09, 2013
159
Training Raise Barricade would be helpful to you (Swashbucklers can't jump over it).

Petty Officer
Dec 21, 2008
55
One might suggest, perhaps, playing differently then.

I think that's what Duncan explained here, and what pirates have been trying. Certainly no pirates play PvP precisely the same way. A variety of approaches have been tried and used, and whether or not their is an effective counter, the community has been unable to find one.

Ratbeard describes "discovering" a strategy by changing play style - I'm very interested in his insights!

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Sunny Wolf on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
How do you approach it? O:
That would be telling.... *makes more popcorn waiting patiently watching the mayhem*

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Instead of playing to counter hidden, which isn't working, try hitting the swashbuckler with attacks that focus on their lack of shielding against energy and physical attacks.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
Ratbeard on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
The following adjustments were made to the meta, almost all of which address hide in one manner or another:

1) Boosted almost all companion talent slots
2) Fixed the issue with FS3/QD3/QC3 not preventing Hide
3) Provided more companions who could train FS3/QD3/QC3
4) Provide more accessible pets with Grants FS3/QD3/QC3
5) Increase the size of the barricade to 5 spaces
6) Improve Scent
7) Forbiddance power
8) More obstacles on the board
9) Allowed defensive stacking
10) ... and NOT banning summons.

To paraphrase GK Chesterton, it's not that the solutions were tried and found wanting; they were found difficult, and not tried.

(Mostly not tried. Thank you to those who are trying and providing action reports.)
Hello Ratbeard,

To be honest I didn't know that so many changes were made just to address counter against hidden power. I thought it was a way to improve our gameplay in PvE.

Here are my thoughts about your list (please note that I speak from WD points of view, I didn't spent with any other class in PvP so I can't talk on their behalf):

1) Boosted almost all companion talent slots

This really comes in handy, against all classes, not just Swash. Still with all new additional epics my Pirate is vulnerable against swashes.
2) Fixed the issue with FS3/QD3/QC3 not preventing Hide
3) Provided more companions who could train FS3/QD3/QC3

Since I, as WD can't learn those epics it doesn't prevent swash and his companions to charge at me freely. I think I already explained scenario in my first post. WD version of FS3 (Intuition?) is not really needed, no Swash choose and hid Witch companion. I doubt that we will see that. Once I am dead, my comps can have FS10/QD10 as far as I am concerned but they are still vulnerable against Swash big time (Riposte, Backstab, and so on).

4) Provide more accessible pets with Grants FS3/QD3/QC3

FS3 or QD3 means nothing to me since I am using Staffy weapons.
5) Increase the size of the barricade to 5 spaces

This one I have to try yet. I am a little stingy when it comes to TP's, if I learn this I won't have any left, but I think I will give it a try.
6) Improve Scent

Pets are not searching for hidden enemies, they hid in corner, Scent is not really usable then.
7) Forbiddance power

Removing one of the hidden powers has slim chances, since Swash has a lot other powers in his deck. Even if one hidden power is removed, there remains two other types.
8) More obstacles on the board

This is mostly effective against ranged units. It crippled me, not Swash.
9) Allowed defensive stacking

In order to protect from Swash, defensive buff stack become OP against other classes.
10) ... and NOT banning summons.

My summons do nothing when opponent is hidden.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
The following adjustments were made to the meta, almost all of which address hide in one manner or another:

1) Boosted almost all companion talent slots
2) Fixed the issue with FS3/QD3/QC3 not preventing Hide
3) Provided more companions who could train FS3/QD3/QC3
4) Provide more accessible pets with Grants FS3/QD3/QC3
5) Increase the size of the barricade to 5 spaces
6) Improve Scent
7) Forbiddance power
8) More obstacles on the board
9) Allowed defensive stacking
10) ... and NOT banning summons.

To paraphrase GK Chesterton, it's not that the solutions were tried and found wanting; they were found difficult, and not tried.

(Mostly not tried. Thank you to those who are trying and providing action reports.)
1) isn't that a universal buff?
2) that gives them target selection but requires specific companions /:
3) helped
4) No good for privateers and witchdoctors I would like to be able to turn off repel boarders in fact trading auto attacks with swashes or buccaneers only gets me killed
5)helped a lot
6) I think if it did more it would be too much
7) dicey and could potentially hurt you more
8) helped
9) Helped defensive classes
10) summons help when they can you know have a target

Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
On my way home from work I thought a lot about this subject. I think I have some ideas. I will throw them here and Ratbeard can see if any of them sounds reasonable.

1. Introducing Scent to gear piece or Grants Scent as pet ability.

2. Change of mechanics how Hidden works - If you are attacked by player who hides after that, the player is untargetable to everyone except you. If same player does multi attack and hides after that, player is targetable only by those who suffered damage from that player. Lets call that "super duper adrenaline rush I can see you" type of effect, it lasts for few rounds, it is not permanent. It means that Swash will keep all hidden privileges but now will have to really think twice before he decides who to attack, and if he hides again, he won't be so much invincible like before, but will still keep desired effect.

3. Make hidden powers vulnerable to Purge Magic.

I have more, but they are not that good suggestion. Think about it.

Also I just want to make you sure that I respect your work, and I think that you are awesome developer. Being here on message boards and talk about these subjects only shows how much I am passionate about the game you and Ki team created :)

Sincerely,
Duncan Freeman

Community Leader
I play Swash and WD and I agree with the OP.

It's sure fun to play pvp with my swash and annihilate everyone in my sights simply blackfogging me, frog, bonnie, and el toro then slaughtering the opposition with no trouble at all.

There is no ifs ands buts about it, Swash's hidden power in pvp is way too OP.

There has to be a downside for them to be hiding to make it balanced.

I was thinking make black fog banned from pvp, but allow the swash pirate to keep its solo hides? That way it wont be a stand still for 5+ turns waiting for someone to come out of hide and you could attack their companions who aren't hidden.

Just thinking of other ideas because I really don't see any other class catching up to Swash at this point.

Johnny - Pirate101 Community Leader
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Aquilus99 on Aug 13, 2015 wrote:
Oh yea. Great idea. I'm just going to go farm for the Eyes of the Cobra and the Metal Guardian's Blade for my Privateer/Buccaneer to counter Black Fog. Moreover, when I queue up for battle, I'll use all First Strike 3 companions.

What's wrong with this approach is the sacrifice of both damage and useful chaining abilities better weapons provide (e.g Staff of Power and Axe of the Minotaur Lords). Buccaneer captains are able to handle Swashbucklers reasonably well due to the overall strength of the captain (they are able to hide and use defensive buffs all while maintaining great combos with Blade Storm 3, Relentless 1/2, Follow Through, and Vengeance Strike 3). Privateers on the other hand simply cannot run all First Strike 3 companions because Bucklers can still chain with Sky Spirit/Cloud Spirit, and training FS3 places your entire team at a huge disadvantage vs any other class. We cannot be expected to bring a team that resists a power ONE class has. This could be a viable "counter" to Fog, but because we do not know who we are facing, it simply is not worth the risk. The sacrifice of power to obtain the Guardian Blade also places the captain at the huge disadvantage, as he or she may not be able to retaliate with enough strength against a fully decked Buckler with poisons, assassins, hides, forts, etc.

Non-melee classes can bring all FS3 companions, but again, while they are immune to Fog, they lose a lot of chaining potential against the Swashbuckler's companions.
I find that people often take my suggestions too literally.

Firstly, I should say I completely agree with you. It is NOT worth it in the slightest if you truly know what a "good trade off" is. I could fling my honest opinions too, but I honestly see no sense in doing so since too often everything turns into a back and forth which I try to avoid.

I replied to a thread with a way to deal with hidden, nothing more. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is indeed a way. I could get super detailed as to why Hidden is difficult to deal with at times, and how to deal with it with a simple counter called knowledge, but I personally would rather give others the chance to experience and learn from pvp to be able to make 4 out 2, 2 (constants), and a variable.

Also, since everyone seems to know what ISN'T working and what DOESN'T make a good idea, maybe you should cross some things off the everexpanding list of "things that might work" and keep chipping it down until there is, without a single doubt, a dead end. That's when and where the real changes happen, but the now isn't changing anytime immediately, another reason I don't usually give feedback or voice my opinion too often. When I do say something though, it's usually to try to HELP the thought process and go off course a little because there isn't a utopian meta and the "balance" is never a straight line. Being creative and different usually makes a more difficult fight since "the expected" is never in the place one would normally think. That leads into adapting and so on, but I can say for sure everything begins with trying something different.

I apologize for my novel (and possible "angered" tone) for I usually can't write just 2 sentences on a matter, but I hope that people can try to bend "the norm" little more to at least understand where I am coming from.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
9195
Ruthless Jack Jack... on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
Training Raise Barricade would be helpful to you (Swashbucklers can't jump over it).
Oh yes we can! I've done it and El Toro has this ability as well as Fan or Vinny!

Developer
Swordroll on Aug 14, 2015 wrote:
One might suggest, perhaps, playing differently then.

I think that's what Duncan explained here, and what pirates have been trying. Certainly no pirates play PvP precisely the same way. A variety of approaches have been tried and used, and whether or not their is an effective counter, the community has been unable to find one.

Ratbeard describes "discovering" a strategy by changing play style - I'm very interested in his insights!
People dismissed entire swaths of the update as "not going to work" or "not worth it" without ever setting foot in the arena, let alone actually trying.

Because actual play results trump theory-casting, you'll note that the posts that get the most, fastest attention are the ones with actual play reports. Things tried, results; things not tried, results.

Duncan: To be honest I didn't know that so many changes were made just to address Hide. I thought it was a way to improve our gameplay in PvE.

I didn't say just to counter hide. They are relevant.

I think there is some favoritism towards Swashbucklers and hidden powers.

Why yes, there is a bias towards not taking the defining feature of a class away. Everything about the swashbuckler aims at this style of play, from 1st level to 65th, since the launch of the game.

Here are my thoughts (from a WD point of view).

There are other threads on the travails of WD, not all of which are related to Black Fog, which I think we'll address to your satisfaction.

I am a little stingy when it comes to TP's, if I learn Raise Barricade I won't have any left, but I think I will give it a try.

"Not worth it" example.

Removing one of the hidden powers has slim chances, since Swash has a lot other powers in his deck. Even if one hidden power is removed, there remains two other types.

"Not reliable" example.

He has only one Black Fog. (And he won't be happy if you nuke all his Assassin's Strikes.)

More obstacles on the board is mostly effective against ranged units. It crippled me, not Swash.

A square occupied by a barrel is not occupied by a deadly assassin. Obstacles must be navigated, eating up movement points and allowing you to predict and influence the location of his attack. (The center area is a good place for Barricade.)

My summons do nothing when opponent is hidden.

Summons deny avenues of approach (a living wall), and they deal damage when the swash is not hidden, enabling the "punish" phase of the exchange.