0% chance to join on second page

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AuthorMessage
Petty Officer
Feb 10, 2011
97
Eric Stormbringer on Feb 27, 2013 wrote:
From my understanding the main difference between Nesogra and your solutions is that Nesogra's solution would only lead to a massive game change if players made an active choice to bench the second page with a token. Wheras your solution would automatically change the game for a vast majority of players who(like me) enjoy seeing their second page companions every once in a while.
Point taken FatesKin. I can see how explaining it that way would be seen as a difference.

I was looking at it from the perspective of having the same "effective" number of Companions available as both of our systems would give the same number.

Then, to compromise, I'd like to see Nesogra's solution implemented so that I can be one of those who immediately would use a benching token to bench my entire second page and thereafter

Ensign
Oct 27, 2009
38
Eric Stormbringer on Feb 27, 2013 wrote:
From my understanding the main difference between Nesogra and your solutions is that Nesogra's solution would only lead to a massive game change if players made an active choice to bench the second page with a token. Wheras your solution would automatically change the game for a vast majority of players who(like me) enjoy seeing their second page companions every once in a while.
and to add to it....

The even distribution button. By pressing this button (which would cost a benching token) all of your companions after the firstmate would have an equal chance of appearing in combat.

That way those who want to use more of their companions would have a more reasonable chance of seeing them in battle. ^_^
Imo (and why I was surprised there was so much blacklash against the original auto-benching) the chance of a 2nd page companion is so low it might as well be zero ... If you really want to use more companions there needs to be a change in the other direction towards a more even distribution.

Developer
Nesogra on Feb 28, 2013 wrote:
and to add to it....

The even distribution button. By pressing this button (which would cost a benching token) all of your companions after the firstmate would have an equal chance of appearing in combat.

That way those who want to use more of their companions would have a more reasonable chance of seeing them in battle. ^_^
Imo (and why I was surprised there was so much blacklash against the original auto-benching) the chance of a 2nd page companion is so low it might as well be zero ... If you really want to use more companions there needs to be a change in the other direction towards a more even distribution.
I like the idea of the even distribution button, but I would probably "hide it" on the Options panel, since it's really something I'd only want for advanced users.

But I do think it's a great suggestion.

Community Leader
nullIf companions on the second page had such a low chance of showing up, then we probably wouldnt be having these conversations in the first place. Saying the chances are about zero anyway is as I see it "misinformation" everyone knows these companions show up! Keep in mind that percentage although low, changes as you encounter battles requiring multiple companions, etc. They do show up. Quite nicely IMO.

I think it is more fun, and more of a challenge with the game itself deciding who to choose from, than me controlling this, there is more room for "surprise" (which I think is FUN). Its that random "I have no idea" factor that draws me to this game and allows me to enjoy it even now on my 8th pirate... If I had full control, I would have been totally bored on my second pirate. Who needs an annual subscription when they only have a weeks content to complete and playing additional characters is lackluster/boring because the games dynamics have been nerfed?

Repeating battles, farming much more fun when my line up keeps changing.

Seems to me the real problem is that those on the side wanting to limit companions dont truly understand what those that want the full set of companions wants (it was perfect the way it was....) I dont want to "increase" their chances of showing up (no idea where that idea came from, I havent heard anyone say this), I simply want to keep a chance that they do.

I still think they simply need to keep it as it has always been, adding benchmarks, and provide ways of obtaining adequate benchmarks to make those wanting to limit their crews happy.

Dr Zeppers (aka Silent Sam Stern)
Piratey parodies I like to make.
I be a crazy pirate for goodness sake!
Artist & Admin of Skull Island TV
Ensign
Oct 27, 2009
38
Dr Zeppers on Feb 28, 2013 wrote:
nullIf companions on the second page had such a low chance of showing up, then we probably wouldnt be having these conversations in the first place. Saying the chances are about zero anyway is as I see it "misinformation" everyone knows these companions show up! Keep in mind that percentage although low, changes as you encounter battles requiring multiple companions, etc. They do show up. Quite nicely IMO.

I think it is more fun, and more of a challenge with the game itself deciding who to choose from, than me controlling this, there is more room for "surprise" (which I think is FUN). Its that random "I have no idea" factor that draws me to this game and allows me to enjoy it even now on my 8th pirate... If I had full control, I would have been totally bored on my second pirate. Who needs an annual subscription when they only have a weeks content to complete and playing additional characters is lackluster/boring because the games dynamics have been nerfed?

Repeating battles, farming much more fun when my line up keeps changing.

Seems to me the real problem is that those on the side wanting to limit companions dont truly understand what those that want the full set of companions wants (it was perfect the way it was....) I dont want to "increase" their chances of showing up (no idea where that idea came from, I havent heard anyone say this), I simply want to keep a chance that they do.

I still think they simply need to keep it as it has always been, adding benchmarks, and provide ways of obtaining adequate benchmarks to make those wanting to limit their crews happy.
*Sigh* let me see if I can break it down more.... The distinction you are missing is between the chance of an individual 2nd page companion appear vs the chance of any 2nd page companion of appearing. Let me put it this way.... (my numbers are listed here: pirate101.centralforums.com/forums/showthread.php?29084-Companion-Probabilities)
Say I was to put all of the 2nd page companions into a single box. The chance of a companion from that box appearing is about 3% (roughly equal to the chance of companion 10 appearing) which is significant (which works out to about a 25% chance of appearing per every 10 battles). The problem is for me to train a companion I have to take it out of the box. When I remove it from the box the chance of that individual companion of appearing in battle is effectively zero (companion 24 for example is at about 1/1000) so any points spent on that companion are wasted. That's the rub, the 2nd page companions work as a collective to hurt the team but I can't train them as a collective so they could help the team or bench them as a collective to stop them from hurting the team...

There are two primary results from this.
The first is it makes benching tokens useless on a many companion pirates. Since the % chance of appearing shifts down the list the net change of using all three tokens is very small as well (about 3/1000 for 24 companions...).
The second is for us to win the 3% of the time one from the 2nd page appears the game the 97% of the time we don't draw a second page comp the game is too easy. It doesn't add challenge, it removes it because we compensate by over training our top companions.

What is misinformation is the idea that those who like auto benching want complete control. 15 companions is hardly complete control... If ki has to pick only one option 15 is a great compromise between those who do want complete control and those who want little control.

And yes I do understand that you want a chance of every companion of appearing. My issue is you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't 'do they have a chance of appearing', it is 'given a reasonable number of battles are they likely to appear'. Under the laws of physics there is a 'chance' that you can freeze water that starts at room temperature by putting it on a hot stove. The likelihood of it happening is so low that you will never see it happen and it will never be seen on Earth at all. If you have 3 pages of companions (by my math) the likelihood of you seeing your last comp (#48) in a year when you have 10 battles a day everyday.(or average that) is less than 1%.

Community Leader
Nesogra on Mar 8, 2013 wrote:
*Sigh* let me see if I can break it down more.... The distinction you are missing is between the chance of an individual 2nd page companion appear vs the chance of any 2nd page companion of appearing. Let me put it this way.... (my numbers are listed here: pirate101.centralforums.com/forums/showthread.php?29084-Companion-Probabilities)
Say I was to put all of the 2nd page companions into a single box. The chance of a companion from that box appearing is about 3% (roughly equal to the chance of companion 10 appearing) which is significant (which works out to about a 25% chance of appearing per every 10 battles). The problem is for me to train a companion I have to take it out of the box. When I remove it from the box the chance of that individual companion of appearing in battle is effectively zero (companion 24 for example is at about 1/1000) so any points spent on that companion are wasted. That's the rub, the 2nd page companions work as a collective to hurt the team but I can't train them as a collective so they could help the team or bench them as a collective to stop them from hurting the team...

There are two primary results from this.
The first is it makes benching tokens useless on a many companion pirates. Since the % chance of appearing shifts down the list the net change of using all three tokens is very small as well (about 3/1000 for 24 companions...).
The second is for us to win the 3% of the time one from the 2nd page appears the game the 97% of the time we don't draw a second page comp the game is too easy. It doesn't add challenge, it removes it because we compensate by over training our top companions.

What is misinformation is the idea that those who like auto benching want complete control. 15 companions is hardly complete control... If ki has to pick only one option 15 is a great compromise between those who do want complete control and those who want little control.

And yes I do understand that you want a chance of every companion of appearing. My issue is you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't 'do they have a chance of appearing', it is 'given a reasonable number of battles are they likely to appear'. Under the laws of physics there is a 'chance' that you can freeze water that starts at room temperature by putting it on a hot stove. The likelihood of it happening is so low that you will never see it happen and it will never be seen on Earth at all. If you have 3 pages of companions (by my math) the likelihood of you seeing your last comp (#48) in a year when you have 10 battles a day everyday.(or average that) is less than 1%.
You yourself indicate there is a chance of companions showing from page 2, but then turn around and say its "effectively zero" this is a PERSONAL PERCEPTION, and is obviously not FACT. If it were then I repeat this wouldnt even be an issue. If the second page chances are effectively zero, then whats the point to making a change in the first place? Because the chances ARE NOT zero, and these companions DO show up. So its OBVIOUSLY not "effectively zero" as you state or you wouldnt even care.

There is either a chance, or there is not, the odds of such chances are irrelevant. It IS all about "Do they have a chance to appear", your switch on the question is obviously based on an entirely different view/perspective of the game, and another attempt at twisting the words to suit your case.

I want those companions to show up on occasion, no matter how infantismal the chances are.

Your trying to say that since there is little chance that they come up, why should they come up at all? Easy answer, because that was the designers intent, and is a feature enjoyed by many pirates as it stands, and because they have many customers that LIKE it the way it is.

You can justify your position with all the math you want to make up... it doesnt matter, it still ends up being a personal preference/opinion. Your justification works in your mind, but doesnt hold up one bit in mine as from my perspective your proposed improvement, is an overall detriment to the game.

What doesnt make sense to me, is why people are trying to force their solution upon others, when there is already another solution in place that could perhaps use a little bit of tweaking but could resolve the problem entirely and fairly for all players. Such emphasis reflects a lack of consideration towards others IMO. I pay a lot for this game. I like it the way it is, and dont want shortcuts to be made.

Dr Zeppers (aka Silent Sam Stern)
Piratey parodies I like to make.
I be a crazy pirate for goodness sake!
Artist & Admin of Skull Island TV
Gunner's Mate
Jan 06, 2011
228
Nesogra on Mar 8, 2013 wrote:
*Sigh* let me see if I can break it down more.... The distinction you are missing is between the chance of an individual 2nd page companion appear vs the chance of any 2nd page companion of appearing. Let me put it this way.... (my numbers are listed here: pirate101.centralforums.com/forums/showthread.php?29084-Companion-Probabilities)
Say I was to put all of the 2nd page companions into a single box. The chance of a companion from that box appearing is about 3% (roughly equal to the chance of companion 10 appearing) which is significant (which works out to about a 25% chance of appearing per every 10 battles). The problem is for me to train a companion I have to take it out of the box. When I remove it from the box the chance of that individual companion of appearing in battle is effectively zero (companion 24 for example is at about 1/1000) so any points spent on that companion are wasted. That's the rub, the 2nd page companions work as a collective to hurt the team but I can't train them as a collective so they could help the team or bench them as a collective to stop them from hurting the team...

There are two primary results from this.
The first is it makes benching tokens useless on a many companion pirates. Since the % chance of appearing shifts down the list the net change of using all three tokens is very small as well (about 3/1000 for 24 companions...).
The second is for us to win the 3% of the time one from the 2nd page appears the game the 97% of the time we don't draw a second page comp the game is too easy. It doesn't add challenge, it removes it because we compensate by over training our top companions.

What is misinformation is the idea that those who like auto benching want complete control. 15 companions is hardly complete control... If ki has to pick only one option 15 is a great compromise between those who do want complete control and those who want little control.

And yes I do understand that you want a chance of every companion of appearing. My issue is you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't 'do they have a chance of appearing', it is 'given a reasonable number of battles are they likely to appear'. Under the laws of physics there is a 'chance' that you can freeze water that starts at room temperature by putting it on a hot stove. The likelihood of it happening is so low that you will never see it happen and it will never be seen on Earth at all. If you have 3 pages of companions (by my math) the likelihood of you seeing your last comp (#48) in a year when you have 10 battles a day everyday.(or average that) is less than 1%.
Have you lost a battle because one of these second page companions joined your battle? Has it made your battle significantly harder? Or has it been a mere inconvenience?

I, personally, have not had any problems with lower powered companions, nor have I had trouble keeping all my companions at a relative level. I don't "over-compensate" on my stronger ones.

I know the math. I know all about probabilities and statistics. Does that change the way I want to play the game? No.

Ensign
Oct 27, 2009
38
KiwiChickenz on Mar 8, 2013 wrote:
Have you lost a battle because one of these second page companions joined your battle? Has it made your battle significantly harder? Or has it been a mere inconvenience?

I, personally, have not had any problems with lower powered companions, nor have I had trouble keeping all my companions at a relative level. I don't "over-compensate" on my stronger ones.

I know the math. I know all about probabilities and statistics. Does that change the way I want to play the game? No.
Imo, a 2nd page companion showing up should be enough to cause a player to lose a battle and the fact it is not is a problem. The scenarios where I see a player being able to win, and why I think some are an issue, are…

1) Good luck countering bad luck. During the same battle as a 2nd page appearance the other two companions preform abnormally well in some way, a lucky critical streak at a critical point in the battle, etc. This is the one that’s I don’t think is a problem as those same companions are just as likely to preform worse than usual. Just including this one to be thorough.
2) That player has trained their 2nd page companions. This could be a problem for a variety of reasons. If the player is able to afford to train their companions that much without a lot of extra work then companion training points are too easy to get. This gives the player little reason to conserve points so they don’t have to learn good training practices. The player could also spend time farming so they can buy points (which is where I sit as I use points as a way to burn gold XD). However this makes it to where for them to be challenged the game would be too hard for others (optional hard content can fix this though).
3) That player trains their top companions more. This makes the game too easy when that player doesn’t draw a 2nd page companion.
4) The game is just too easy for that player in general which could cause them to lose interest and quit.

The simple answer is to give us the option of benching all of our companions with less than 1% with something like the multi bench button (as I posted earlier) in this thread. By making it an option it would help level the playing field between casual players and the not so casual players. Players who are willing to spend the time to keep up a larger team can do so but those who can’t handle that big of a crew (or trained too much in the early game so they don’t have any points saved) have way out.
Also by giving players the option to cap their number of companions the developers can better set the difficulty of pve and how many companion training points they need to throw our way for us to keep up with that difficulty. Those who want more challenge can use the even distribution button for even more randomness for which companions are picked. The difficulty could then be increased a bit without hurting anyone.

Ensign
Oct 27, 2009
38
Dr Zeppers on Mar 8, 2013 wrote:
You yourself indicate there is a chance of companions showing from page 2, but then turn around and say its "effectively zero" this is a PERSONAL PERCEPTION, and is obviously not FACT. If it were then I repeat this wouldnt even be an issue. If the second page chances are effectively zero, then whats the point to making a change in the first place? Because the chances ARE NOT zero, and these companions DO show up. So its OBVIOUSLY not "effectively zero" as you state or you wouldnt even care.

There is either a chance, or there is not, the odds of such chances are irrelevant. It IS all about "Do they have a chance to appear", your switch on the question is obviously based on an entirely different view/perspective of the game, and another attempt at twisting the words to suit your case.

I want those companions to show up on occasion, no matter how infantismal the chances are.

Your trying to say that since there is little chance that they come up, why should they come up at all? Easy answer, because that was the designers intent, and is a feature enjoyed by many pirates as it stands, and because they have many customers that LIKE it the way it is.

You can justify your position with all the math you want to make up... it doesnt matter, it still ends up being a personal preference/opinion. Your justification works in your mind, but doesnt hold up one bit in mine as from my perspective your proposed improvement, is an overall detriment to the game.

What doesnt make sense to me, is why people are trying to force their solution upon others, when there is already another solution in place that could perhaps use a little bit of tweaking but could resolve the problem entirely and fairly for all players. Such emphasis reflects a lack of consideration towards others IMO. I pay a lot for this game. I like it the way it is, and dont want shortcuts to be made.
So you call my position misinformation... I try to clarify my position and I include the numbers my position is based on with my methods, assumptions, and formula clearly spelled out. You completely ignore the most important part of that clarification and then accuse me of making up numbers... If you think my math is wrong then at least show enough curiosity and tell me where you think I am wrong so I can either fix it or defend my methods on the specifics. Anything less is just a personal attack.

I'll give it one more shot....

First, what I'm asking for is what I posted on the first page, a button that changes <1% to 0% at the cost of one benching token. If you don't want that change then don't use the button...

Second.... Again you are missing the distinction between a companion from position 16 on and an individual companion.
The chance of the game picking one of the companions from 16 on to put in the battle is about 3% or roughly equal to the chance of the game picking companion #10.
The chance of the game picking a certain individual companion from the second page is much lower. In other words if you ask 'what is the chance of my sky snake that is in the 24th companion slot appearing in battle' the answer to that question is about 1/1000. Now the next question is 'given the chance of my sky snake appearing is it worth spending a companion training point on'. If no then the chance of that companion appearing is effectively zero.

Developer
Folks, if I may, I don't think there's much value in sniping back and forth at each other on this topic.

We've seen good arguments and good ideas from all sides, and I have a list of things we may try moving forward.

But this is one of the most integral systems of the game, so expect us to change it slowly and incrementally. Rest assured it is as important to us as it is to you guys, and there are lots of directions we can attack it from.

Benching tokens really should be used to bench companions you just don't like-- a solution to an emotional problem, not a strategic one.

As for the strategic problem, let's take a step back and think about what else we might try. Do we need more epic battles with explicit companion selection? Do training tomes need to be reviewed? Can we find other ways that a large crew can be advantageous? And what about leveling the playing field of companions a bit, so there are fewer "duds"?

I love mining you guys for ideas! I love the fluffy emotional wahoo ideas, and I love the crunchy logical systems ideas.

Can we "bench" this particular avenue of discussion and think of other solutions for a bit?

Community Leader
Nesogra on Mar 9, 2013 wrote:
So you call my position misinformation... I try to clarify my position and I include the numbers my position is based on with my methods, assumptions, and formula clearly spelled out. You completely ignore the most important part of that clarification and then accuse me of making up numbers... If you think my math is wrong then at least show enough curiosity and tell me where you think I am wrong so I can either fix it or defend my methods on the specifics. Anything less is just a personal attack.

I'll give it one more shot....

First, what I'm asking for is what I posted on the first page, a button that changes <1% to 0% at the cost of one benching token. If you don't want that change then don't use the button...

Second.... Again you are missing the distinction between a companion from position 16 on and an individual companion.
The chance of the game picking one of the companions from 16 on to put in the battle is about 3% or roughly equal to the chance of the game picking companion #10.
The chance of the game picking a certain individual companion from the second page is much lower. In other words if you ask 'what is the chance of my sky snake that is in the 24th companion slot appearing in battle' the answer to that question is about 1/1000. Now the next question is 'given the chance of my sky snake appearing is it worth spending a companion training point on'. If no then the chance of that companion appearing is effectively zero.
I did not intend to call your position misinformation, my apologies.
That was more a reflection of how I saw someone portraying their feelings on "effectively zero" as facts that apply to everyone. Which it clearly is not. "effectively zero" is a non-factual perspective chosen by each individual based on their perception of the actual odds. Using math to support this perspective is tricky, as the math uses further personal choices (ie rounding of numbers) to make its case. In your own example above, its based on a personal preference/choice (whether or not is worth a training point). If a player feels the chances of pg 2 companions showing up in battle are effectively zero, then the player shouldnt be seeing any need for a change to the existing system. Since the chances of pg2 companions showing up in battle are obviously are not zero, it has been a topic of discussion, and of KI's attention.

There actually is no distinction on companions in regards to companions over 16 that need be recognized.
Who chooses the cut off point of "effectively zero"? Are we saying 16 simply because thats how many KI chose to display per page? Doesnt the point at which we start to consider companions "effectively zero" depend on our own personal perceptions? Maybe to some its companions over 24 that are effectively zero, etc. In other discussions it was clear that some thought it should be 6-8. Opinions/perceptions obviously vary!

What I do NOT want is for all but 16 companions to automatically be set to 0%.
I did not find it that hard at all developing engaging strategies to address the issues regarding numbers of companions. The way the game manages companions presently IMO gives the game even more dynamics, without forcing players any particular direction. I am all for coming up with additional options, I do believe they have a great solution in place, that will likely require tweaking over time.

One of those adjustments might be how benchmarks are applied, maybe one might apply to an entire page sometime in the future. I leave this all to KI.

Perhaps there could be different benchmarks.
Benchmark: 1 companion
Super benchmark: 4 companions
Mega benchmark: 8 companions
Epic benchmark: 16 companions/page

My apologies if I offend anyone, I am just passionate about the games I love to play, and speak out when I see requests to change parts of the game I found particularly engaging/fun.

Dr Zeppers (aka Silent Sam Stern)
Piratey parodies I like to make.
I be a crazy pirate for goodness sake!
Artist & Admin of Skull Island TV
Gunner's Mate
Jun 15, 2009
273
Ratbeard on Feb 24, 2013 wrote:
Despite my intentions, it seems that only Nesogra really saw the full functionality of what I was trying to accomplish with Page 2 combined with benching tokens. Half the people hated it immediately because they like page 2 companions; and folks like deoxy immediately dismissed it as useless. Nesogra "got it" but if the solution isn't instantly grokkable by the vast majority of players, it's not viable.

The major points are this:

1) Allow people who enjoy the game now to continue playing it as is. (Easy enough: don't use your bench tokens.)

2) Provide benching tokens for people to remove companions they simply don't ever want to show up. (Note that this is distinct from strategic companion management-- this is simply a solution for matters of taste.)

3) With respect to strategic companion management, this constitutes a short-cut through the game. If you take companions out of the roster, the game is easier on a number of levels: you won't lose as many battles if you have better control over your companions, and you won't spend as much time doing side quests for training tomes and gold. We don't mind short cuts but we have to balance them carefully.
I agree with Mr. Beard I think he knows what's best for the game

I never thought I'd say that and I still can't believe it

Administrator
Thank you all for your responses and insights into this topic, but it's time to lock this thread. Ratbeard has suggested some other great topics that someone might like to start up on another thread, specifically:

  • Do we need more epic battles with explicit companion selection?
  • Do training tomes need to be reviewed?
  • Can we find other ways that a large crew can be advantageous?
  • And what about leveling the playing field of companions a bit, so there are fewer "duds"?


Thanks for your passion and commitment to Pirate101!

*One-Eyed Jack, Your Pirate101 Community Manager*
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