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To Ratbeard on Hidden: Almost but not quite

1
AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
This thread in particular offers feedback as relates to the test realm change:

First Strike Rank 3, Quick Draw Rank 3 and Intuition Rank 3 can now all remove a hidden attacker from hiding before the attack triggers.

I am happy to see that you are considering having the rank 3 epics remove. However I have 2 problems with the solution highlighted above.

Problem 1- Wrong Epics
While the chance to remove hidden by rank 3 epics is a good one I believe you have chosen the wrong epics. By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks. You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden. Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged. I believe a more appropriate change would be to allow the approach epics such as overwatch and repel boarders to be able to activate on and remove hidden. If you are worried that this makes these talents too powerful(removes hidden and debuffs accuracy) then simply change it so that only one of the effects takes place. Against hidden units rep 3 overwatch 3 would remove hidden. Against non-hidden units it would debuff accuracy.

Problem 2- Guaranteed Removal
The change to the epics allows guaranteed removal whether it hits or not. I believe this to be fundamentally unbalanced as it offers the same type of immunity scent offered. Instead I believe the hidden should only be removed if the epic hits. In this way it is a counter-mechanic that still offers swash a chance to avoid it rather than a guaranteed immunity epic.

In conclusion my changes are:
1)Change overwatch 3 repel boarders 3 readied spell 3 to remove hidden against hidden units and -50% acc to non-hidden units.

2)Have hidden be removed only after hidden unit is successfully hit with these epics.

Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
Eric Stormbringer on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
This thread in particular offers feedback as relates to the test realm change:

First Strike Rank 3, Quick Draw Rank 3 and Intuition Rank 3 can now all remove a hidden attacker from hiding before the attack triggers.

I am happy to see that you are considering having the rank 3 epics remove. However I have 2 problems with the solution highlighted above.

Problem 1- Wrong Epics
While the chance to remove hidden by rank 3 epics is a good one I believe you have chosen the wrong epics. By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks. You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden. Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged. I believe a more appropriate change would be to allow the approach epics such as overwatch and repel boarders to be able to activate on and remove hidden. If you are worried that this makes these talents too powerful(removes hidden and debuffs accuracy) then simply change it so that only one of the effects takes place. Against hidden units rep 3 overwatch 3 would remove hidden. Against non-hidden units it would debuff accuracy.

Problem 2- Guaranteed Removal
The change to the epics allows guaranteed removal whether it hits or not. I believe this to be fundamentally unbalanced as it offers the same type of immunity scent offered. Instead I believe the hidden should only be removed if the epic hits. In this way it is a counter-mechanic that still offers swash a chance to avoid it rather than a guaranteed immunity epic.

In conclusion my changes are:
1)Change overwatch 3 repel boarders 3 readied spell 3 to remove hidden against hidden units and -50% acc to non-hidden units.

2)Have hidden be removed only after hidden unit is successfully hit with these epics.
Number 2 won't help much. Still the same problem. Why would a swashbuckler in hidden target a companion with first strike 3 rather than the pirate who does not have first strike 3? So I think number 1 is the more viable choice IMO.

Developer
Eric Stormbringer on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
This thread in particular offers feedback as relates to the test realm change:

First Strike Rank 3, Quick Draw Rank 3 and Intuition Rank 3 can now all remove a hidden attacker from hiding before the attack triggers.

I am happy to see that you are considering having the rank 3 epics remove. However I have 2 problems with the solution highlighted above.

Problem 1- Wrong Epics
While the chance to remove hidden by rank 3 epics is a good one I believe you have chosen the wrong epics. By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks. You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden. Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged. I believe a more appropriate change would be to allow the approach epics such as overwatch and repel boarders to be able to activate on and remove hidden. If you are worried that this makes these talents too powerful(removes hidden and debuffs accuracy) then simply change it so that only one of the effects takes place. Against hidden units rep 3 overwatch 3 would remove hidden. Against non-hidden units it would debuff accuracy.

Problem 2- Guaranteed Removal
The change to the epics allows guaranteed removal whether it hits or not. I believe this to be fundamentally unbalanced as it offers the same type of immunity scent offered. Instead I believe the hidden should only be removed if the epic hits. In this way it is a counter-mechanic that still offers swash a chance to avoid it rather than a guaranteed immunity epic.

In conclusion my changes are:
1)Change overwatch 3 repel boarders 3 readied spell 3 to remove hidden against hidden units and -50% acc to non-hidden units.

2)Have hidden be removed only after hidden unit is successfully hit with these epics.
I have just a few quick questions based on all the matches you played since yesterday afternoon.

If you're a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of equipment for your pirate? What are you using?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of pets?
  • What pets did you use? What talents are you looking for?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets after you used Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your "approach" to each target?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?

If you're not a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of defensive buffs to prepare for incoming Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets for your defensive buffs?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
To be fair, I managed to make a good counter strategy to fog thanks to Ratbeard(the companion) getting first strike 3, however I agree with the original post. I don't think it should be a guaranteed remove, that makes it a bit overpowered, for countering fog and hiding against swashbucklers. Overwatch/Repel/readied spell might be the way to go, however Ratbeard stated that he thought overwatch was perfectly fine and was working how it should be. I do like the idea of having two different effect though. The only problem I have with this is that s will still have hardly an effective counter. You might first strike 3 ratbeard, however almost all other buccaneer companions have no natural counter to this (I count Gaspard, Birgus, and Ratbeard being the only ones) Maybe give Hold the Line 3 a good chance? To detect, and then have say a 50% chance to break hidden? Just my thoughts :)

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
I have just a few quick questions based on all the matches you played since yesterday afternoon.

If you're a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of equipment for your pirate? What are you using?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of pets?
  • What pets did you use? What talents are you looking for?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets after you used Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your "approach" to each target?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?

If you're not a Swashbuckler:

  • How did the changes affect your team composition?
  • Did you use any new companions? Which ones? Why did you try them out?
  • Did you discover anything new on companions that you haven't looked at in a while?
  • How did the changes affect the talents that you trained on your companions?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of defensive buffs to prepare for incoming Black Fog?
  • How did the changes affect your choice of targets for your defensive buffs?
  • How many matches have you played with the new settings?
  • How many matches did you win?
  • How many matches did you lose?
I'm going to go ahead and answer these, based on how my adjusted.

It changed my composition slightly, simply using RatBeard for his first strike 3 (have hold 3 and repel 2 on him)

I did not use new companions. RatBeard was already in my setup.

Changed Ratbeard's +3 from first strike 1 and blade storm 2 to first strike 3.

I still used Valor's Fort and Valor's armor to defend against Black Fog.

Yes, My targets for defensive buffs did change, because since RatBeard can directly counter Fog, I chose myself and my other companions to defend.

It is not fair for me to say how many I won because my is new to PvP, and my only opponent was also. However, I believe with my current setup, my Privateer can effectively counter Fog as a power by itself

-Helpful Harmony 65

Developer
By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks.

That's incorrect. And it's frustrating because I know that you know it's incorrect.

What happens to a Swashbuckler who is attacked by a hidden ranged attacker? Or a magic attacker?

What happens when he is attacked by a hidden melee attacker, and that one melee attacker triggers all three First Strikes before the second attacker moves in?

You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden.

That's correct. It's also in direct opposition to your first statement, which is how I know that you know it's not true that Swashbucklers are "immune" to hidden.

Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged.

Again, correct. Which is another way of saying that Swashbucklers who use Black Fog now have to make more informed decisions about who they attack-- and especially so for Fogged companions.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

There are pets with Scent-- but nobody wants to use them because they are "not reliable."

There are companions (many, many companions) who now have rank 3 of a 100% proof against Hide-- but nobody wants to use them because they'd have to sacrifice something cooler. (And by "sacrifice" I mean, "Spend my brand new unlocked talent slots on anything besides more sick offense.")

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power. Some folks (not you necessarily) seem to be moving the goalposts to now apparently include, "And I don't want to have to change my team, my strategy, or otherwise be inconvenienced thinking about how to counter it."

I appreciate you helping to look for the right fix.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks.

That's incorrect. And it's frustrating because I know that you know it's incorrect.

What happens to a Swashbuckler who is attacked by a hidden ranged attacker? Or a magic attacker?

What happens when he is attacked by a hidden melee attacker, and that one melee attacker triggers all three First Strikes before the second attacker moves in?

You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden.

That's correct. It's also in direct opposition to your first statement, which is how I know that you know it's not true that Swashbucklers are "immune" to hidden.

Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged.

Again, correct. Which is another way of saying that Swashbucklers who use Black Fog now have to make more informed decisions about who they attack-- and especially so for Fogged companions.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

There are pets with Scent-- but nobody wants to use them because they are "not reliable."

There are companions (many, many companions) who now have rank 3 of a 100% proof against Hide-- but nobody wants to use them because they'd have to sacrifice something cooler. (And by "sacrifice" I mean, "Spend my brand new unlocked talent slots on anything besides more sick offense.")

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power. Some folks (not you necessarily) seem to be moving the goalposts to now apparently include, "And I don't want to have to change my team, my strategy, or otherwise be inconvenienced thinking about how to counter it."

I appreciate you helping to look for the right fix.
Ratbeard, in response to your first point, I think that there will be problem once it is pirate vs pirate in a PVP match. At that point, if its a swashbuckler vs a buccaneer, and all companions are dead, it will be impossible for the buccaneer to do a hidden attack on the buckler. The same will hold true for a privateer with a melee weapon.

The damage from hidden attacks from witchdoctors is not an issue. A witchdoctor would have to be foolish to do that. Our spell damage does not increase from hidden, so all we can hope for is one strong wand attack. While hidden, we would be better off healing, buffing and shielding. A wand or staff attacks doesnt compare to a hidden assassin strike or even a hidden critical hit from a melee weapon. And even for musketeers, their hidden attacks are not very strong, except for maybe sniper shot.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks.

That's incorrect. And it's frustrating because I know that you know it's incorrect.

What happens to a Swashbuckler who is attacked by a hidden ranged attacker? Or a magic attacker?

What happens when he is attacked by a hidden melee attacker, and that one melee attacker triggers all three First Strikes before the second attacker moves in?

You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden.

That's correct. It's also in direct opposition to your first statement, which is how I know that you know it's not true that Swashbucklers are "immune" to hidden.

Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged.

Again, correct. Which is another way of saying that Swashbucklers who use Black Fog now have to make more informed decisions about who they attack-- and especially so for Fogged companions.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

There are pets with Scent-- but nobody wants to use them because they are "not reliable."

There are companions (many, many companions) who now have rank 3 of a 100% proof against Hide-- but nobody wants to use them because they'd have to sacrifice something cooler. (And by "sacrifice" I mean, "Spend my brand new unlocked talent slots on anything besides more sick offense.")

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power. Some folks (not you necessarily) seem to be moving the goalposts to now apparently include, "And I don't want to have to change my team, my strategy, or otherwise be inconvenienced thinking about how to counter it."

I appreciate you helping to look for the right fix.
Which companions? None of my companions even have intuition 1, only bonnie has quick draw 3 and ratbeard and the ninja pig are the only ones available to me with first strike 3 considering I'm a privateer idk if the other classes have companions with those rank 3

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Actually just double checked and I count 8 with those 2 options they are just companions I forgot about XD cat ninja, monkey king, El Toro , wild bill peacock and moresco de valvida

Ensign
Nov 11, 2008
26
I don't think hide is the real "problem." The "problem" is ganging up on a single target, which is the nature of Pirate101 combat. Any class can do it, Black Fog just makes it easier.
As for the First Strike update, I certainly think that it satisfies all the demands stated prior to the update-- it is reliable and it doesn't make Hide useless.

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, in response to your first point, I think that there will be problem once it is pirate vs pirate in a PVP match. At that point, if its a swashbuckler vs a buccaneer, and all companions are dead, it will be impossible for the buccaneer to do a hidden attack on the buckler. The same will hold true for a privateer with a melee weapon.

The damage from hidden attacks from witchdoctors is not an issue. A witchdoctor would have to be foolish to do that. Our spell damage does not increase from hidden, so all we can hope for is one strong wand attack. While hidden, we would be better off healing, buffing and shielding. A wand or staff attacks doesnt compare to a hidden assassin strike or even a hidden critical hit from a melee weapon. And even for musketeers, their hidden attacks are not very strong, except for maybe sniper shot.
At that point, if its a swashbuckler vs a buccaneer, and all companions are dead, it will be impossible for the buccaneer to do a hidden attack on the buckler.

I missed the memo that said that Buccaneers should be able to land hidden attacks on Swashbucklers.

Do Swashbucklers get Reckless Frenzy or anything from the Buccaneer toolkit?

The damage from hidden attacks from witchdoctors is not an issue. A witchdoctor would have to be foolish to do that. Our spell damage does not increase from hidden, so all we can hope for is one strong wand attack.

The overwhelming complaint has been about Black Fog being too powerful. And Witchdoctor (pirates) do not have access to Black Fog.

Witchdoctor companions have access to Black Fog via a Swashbuckler pirate; of course Swashbucklers don't have access to a lot of witchdoctors. I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about Old Scratch killing off your Swashbuckler-- but Swashbucklers are not, in fact, immune to hidden magic attacks via FS3.

I'll go back and add Intuition as an option for more WD companions.

Developer
The Privateer on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
I don't think hide is the real "problem." The "problem" is ganging up on a single target, which is the nature of Pirate101 combat. Any class can do it, Black Fog just makes it easier.
As for the First Strike update, I certainly think that it satisfies all the demands stated prior to the update-- it is reliable and it doesn't make Hide useless.
It also prevents you from using Black Fog and ganging up all your units on the same target.

I've already seen someone say elsewhere, "I'll just use Nausicaa and some other ranged companion."

Ok. Great. You've split your focus in half. That only helps the defender.

And who's the other companion?

You're already having to adapt.

As for the First Strike update, I certainly think that it satisfies all the demands stated prior to the update-- it is reliable and it doesn't make Hide useless.

To be fair, what most players really wanted-- though only a few were honest enough to say so-- was something that was reliable and DID make Hide useless. So I can understand a certain amount of dissatisfaction.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
At that point, if its a swashbuckler vs a buccaneer, and all companions are dead, it will be impossible for the buccaneer to do a hidden attack on the buckler.

I missed the memo that said that Buccaneers should be able to land hidden attacks on Swashbucklers.

Do Swashbucklers get Reckless Frenzy or anything from the Buccaneer toolkit?

The damage from hidden attacks from witchdoctors is not an issue. A witchdoctor would have to be foolish to do that. Our spell damage does not increase from hidden, so all we can hope for is one strong wand attack.

The overwhelming complaint has been about Black Fog being too powerful. And Witchdoctor (pirates) do not have access to Black Fog.

Witchdoctor companions have access to Black Fog via a Swashbuckler pirate; of course Swashbucklers don't have access to a lot of witchdoctors. I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about Old Scratch killing off your Swashbuckler-- but Swashbucklers are not, in fact, immune to hidden magic attacks via FS3.

I'll go back and add Intuition as an option for more WD companions.
Ratbeard, reckless frenzy is limited to once in a match, and can be easily countered with an accuracy reduce or dodge increase. On the other hand, Hidden attacks can occur multiple times, and give double damage guaranteed.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
It also prevents you from using Black Fog and ganging up all your units on the same target.

I've already seen someone say elsewhere, "I'll just use Nausicaa and some other ranged companion."

Ok. Great. You've split your focus in half. That only helps the defender.

And who's the other companion?

You're already having to adapt.

As for the First Strike update, I certainly think that it satisfies all the demands stated prior to the update-- it is reliable and it doesn't make Hide useless.

To be fair, what most players really wanted-- though only a few were honest enough to say so-- was something that was reliable and DID make Hide useless. So I can understand a certain amount of dissatisfaction.
Thanks for the shout-out to my post on Central. My point about just using Nausica and another ranged companion works because it is exactly what will happen. I don't see how it would benefit the defender. My current team before the change was Swash, Fan, Nausica and Goronado. Now I will just replace Goronado with Bonnie, or any of the Magnificent Seven with a critical card. It changes barely anything on my team. While for the defender, he has to sacrifice so much, and just for the possibility that he might face a Swashbuckler in ranked.

If my opponent split their focus and bring ranged and melee units with quick draw 3/first strike 3, I just attack melee with ranged and ranged with melee. If they bring all 3 first strike 3 companions, I just focus them down with my Muskets and use my melee on his player character since no other class except for Swashbuckler can get first strike 3. If my opponent brings all 3 quick draw units, then myself and my melee companion make short work of them and then Nausica with a fortress will eat up quick draw units like breakfast.

The fix changes nothing and just makes it a small inconvenience to walk around. It is way too easy to avoid. You call this having to adapt, but it doesn't matter if the result after the update is still the same result before the update, Swashbucklers dominating.

I don't necessarily agree with Eric's idea here because I think it would just be like Scent and make hidden completely useless. I have been a strong advocate of NOT wanting to make the power completely useless, just toning it down a bit. Any approach epic like Scent or Overwatch 3/Repel 3 removing hidden would make it way too easy to make Black Fog useless. I am still of the idea that the best solution would be to tone down the damage bonus. Either from x2 to x1.5, or implementing Valkoor's idea of the damage bonus going down the more turns you are hidden. Either would solve the black fog problem without making it completely useless.

-Alex Deathflame

Developer
stormy quentin ver... on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
Ratbeard, reckless frenzy is limited to once in a match, and can be easily countered with an accuracy reduce or dodge increase. On the other hand, Hidden attacks can occur multiple times, and give double damage guaranteed.
Only 1 Black Fog, which is the only power in consideration.

I've already mentioned before the vast array of "double damage guaranteed" powers available to pirates of other classes (but most notably Musketeers).

Musketeers, in fact, have double damage guaranteed on multiple area of effect attacks. They do double damage guaranteed to more than one enemy at a time. I'm not talking about chains; I mean that the powers are literally set to deal 2x or more of your weapon power or spell power.

Musketeers and Witchdoctors can freely target swashbucklers with an AoE. You can even hide first. And the Swashbuckler can't reveal you with FS3.

Anyhow... "Double Damage Guaranteed" was baked into the mix a long time ago, for all classes.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
As a witchdoctor, this wont affect me at all, but I guess you can see how it plays out with the rest of the classes.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
Only 1 Black Fog, which is the only power in consideration.

I've already mentioned before the vast array of "double damage guaranteed" powers available to pirates of other classes (but most notably Musketeers).

Musketeers, in fact, have double damage guaranteed on multiple area of effect attacks. They do double damage guaranteed to more than one enemy at a time. I'm not talking about chains; I mean that the powers are literally set to deal 2x or more of your weapon power or spell power.

Musketeers and Witchdoctors can freely target swashbucklers with an AoE. You can even hide first. And the Swashbuckler can't reveal you with FS3.

Anyhow... "Double Damage Guaranteed" was baked into the mix a long time ago, for all classes.
The problem comes when the x2 damage of Black Fog is amplifying multiple other x2+ powers.

What makes Hidden in general so dangerous is that you can "stack", for lack of a better word, the x2 damage bonus it gives you with x3 damage of an Assassin's Strike, or with the x2 damage of a Musket's trick shot, or with the already high damage of a critical card. Please correct me if I am wrong Ratbeard, but I believe a super critical (which a lot of companions have) does more than x2 damage.

This is what makes all hidden powers so good. A hidden Assassin Strike can do upwards of 1500+ damage without critical and without counting the bleeding after. A hidden Musket trick shot can do 1000+ damage too. However, Walk in Darkness/Walk in Shadows are okay because they only amplify this for one user. So you only have to worry about ONE enemy unit doing such ridiculous damage and you can play around it.

But then we have Black Fog. You give this x2 damage bonus to all your companions, which together with their own critical or powers will make them do over a 1000 damage on their first hit, prior to any bladestorm/relentless/etc chain that follows after. The tankiest companions in the game can have 3000 or so health. With just two companions under hidden (Fan and Nausica for example), I can kill the tankiest companion in the game within one turn. In fact, the other day, my Fan Flanders, by herself, killed a Goronado with 3000 health in ONE turn with Black Fog into her Super Critical card and Bladestorm/Relentless chains.

This sheer power to not just one unit, but all my companions, allows me to kill 2+ units with a well used Black Fog every single time. Very rarely can players recover from being down 2v4 after that.

Perhaps the solution is to limit the x2 damage of Fog to only apply for regular hits and not power cards like the Super Strikes or Assassin Strikes? I don't know, but at this point, I don't think any of us know what would be best for this obvious Black Fog problem.

Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
Alex Hawkins on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
The problem comes when the x2 damage of Black Fog is amplifying multiple other x2+ powers.

What makes Hidden in general so dangerous is that you can "stack", for lack of a better word, the x2 damage bonus it gives you with x3 damage of an Assassin's Strike, or with the x2 damage of a Musket's trick shot, or with the already high damage of a critical card. Please correct me if I am wrong Ratbeard, but I believe a super critical (which a lot of companions have) does more than x2 damage.

This is what makes all hidden powers so good. A hidden Assassin Strike can do upwards of 1500+ damage without critical and without counting the bleeding after. A hidden Musket trick shot can do 1000+ damage too. However, Walk in Darkness/Walk in Shadows are okay because they only amplify this for one user. So you only have to worry about ONE enemy unit doing such ridiculous damage and you can play around it.

But then we have Black Fog. You give this x2 damage bonus to all your companions, which together with their own critical or powers will make them do over a 1000 damage on their first hit, prior to any bladestorm/relentless/etc chain that follows after. The tankiest companions in the game can have 3000 or so health. With just two companions under hidden (Fan and Nausica for example), I can kill the tankiest companion in the game within one turn. In fact, the other day, my Fan Flanders, by herself, killed a Goronado with 3000 health in ONE turn with Black Fog into her Super Critical card and Bladestorm/Relentless chains.

This sheer power to not just one unit, but all my companions, allows me to kill 2+ units with a well used Black Fog every single time. Very rarely can players recover from being down 2v4 after that.

Perhaps the solution is to limit the x2 damage of Fog to only apply for regular hits and not power cards like the Super Strikes or Assassin Strikes? I don't know, but at this point, I don't think any of us know what would be best for this obvious Black Fog problem.
I agree completely.

Ensign
Oct 18, 2009
17
I rather just unhidden hides by aoe hits better

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
By putting it on First Strike rank 3 you have effectively made swashbucklers immune to hidden attacks.

That's incorrect. And it's frustrating because I know that you know it's incorrect.

What happens to a Swashbuckler who is attacked by a hidden ranged attacker? Or a magic attacker?

What happens when he is attacked by a hidden melee attacker, and that one melee attacker triggers all three First Strikes before the second attacker moves in?

You have also made it so only melee can remove melee hidden and ranged can remove ranged hidden.

That's correct. It's also in direct opposition to your first statement, which is how I know that you know it's not true that Swashbucklers are "immune" to hidden.

Coupled with putting the power to remove hidden on a responsive epic it means that the swashbuckler can easily avoid it via targeting ranged units with melee and melee with ranged.

Again, correct. Which is another way of saying that Swashbucklers who use Black Fog now have to make more informed decisions about who they attack-- and especially so for Fogged companions.

Indisputably, a Swashbuckler using Black Fog on his entire team has fewer valid targets after this change than before-- assuming that the defender chooses to avail himself of the tools provided.

There are pets with Scent-- but nobody wants to use them because they are "not reliable."

There are companions (many, many companions) who now have rank 3 of a 100% proof against Hide-- but nobody wants to use them because they'd have to sacrifice something cooler. (And by "sacrifice" I mean, "Spend my brand new unlocked talent slots on anything besides more sick offense.")

No "fix" will provide a direct counter for the Swashbuckler's signature class power. Some folks (not you necessarily) seem to be moving the goalposts to now apparently include, "And I don't want to have to change my team, my strategy, or otherwise be inconvenienced thinking about how to counter it."

I appreciate you helping to look for the right fix.
Just my speculations on Black Fog vs. Other classes.

Fog v.? With the array of swashbuckler companions, and with most being able to get first strike 3, you can be immune to melee hidden attacks. This makes buckler mirrors more interesting, as they have to work around not using hidden. The only problem is that basically any companion w/out FS3 will die. This type of targeting can be bad, but it is understandable at this point in the meta. In summary, RatBeard made FS3 a 'meta' epic.
Fog v.? Nothing too much changed here. However, Bonnie can get Quick Draw 3, so Nausica might be dead for other bucklers in this kind of matchup, we'll see I suppose. Majority of s use all melee, so I guess it depends on the setup, but generally it is the same fight.
Fog v.? With the amount of Forts one Privateer can get(and VA), having even one FS3 companion (ex.RatBeard) is extremely helpful. If you protect yourself and only one or two companions, at worst you can lose one companion(maybe 2).
Fog v? Rarely does a Buckler make a Witchdoctor, in addition no WD companion I have seen can get intuition, so this update impacted nothing for them(RatBeard stated in another post he would add intuition to companions in another thread)
Fog v ? It is hard to tell how this impacted, because there are variables. For 'meta' s we need something both offensive and defensive to stay alive. The FS3 companions for s are somewhat limited,(there are 8,and only 3 are specific), however most would still not even be able to hold themselves in a fight. Even If I used RatBeard, they would simply target the offensive companions s would need to compensate for the loss of offense. In Summary, s still need something to have at least a semi- reliable counter, otherwise the entire class has to change its whole style of play so s get one power to stay the same. Maybe something w/Hold the line 3?

Scent Is 'unreliable' because of how the AI works. maybe allow scent pets to walk towards hidden players?

Ensign
Jul 26, 2015
3
Alex Hawkins on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
The problem comes when the x2 damage of Black Fog is amplifying multiple other x2+ powers.

What makes Hidden in general so dangerous is that you can "stack", for lack of a better word, the x2 damage bonus it gives you with x3 damage of an Assassin's Strike, or with the x2 damage of a Musket's trick shot, or with the already high damage of a critical card. Please correct me if I am wrong Ratbeard, but I believe a super critical (which a lot of companions have) does more than x2 damage.

This is what makes all hidden powers so good. A hidden Assassin Strike can do upwards of 1500+ damage without critical and without counting the bleeding after. A hidden Musket trick shot can do 1000+ damage too. However, Walk in Darkness/Walk in Shadows are okay because they only amplify this for one user. So you only have to worry about ONE enemy unit doing such ridiculous damage and you can play around it.

But then we have Black Fog. You give this x2 damage bonus to all your companions, which together with their own critical or powers will make them do over a 1000 damage on their first hit, prior to any bladestorm/relentless/etc chain that follows after. The tankiest companions in the game can have 3000 or so health. With just two companions under hidden (Fan and Nausica for example), I can kill the tankiest companion in the game within one turn. In fact, the other day, my Fan Flanders, by herself, killed a Goronado with 3000 health in ONE turn with Black Fog into her Super Critical card and Bladestorm/Relentless chains.

This sheer power to not just one unit, but all my companions, allows me to kill 2+ units with a well used Black Fog every single time. Very rarely can players recover from being down 2v4 after that.

Perhaps the solution is to limit the x2 damage of Fog to only apply for regular hits and not power cards like the Super Strikes or Assassin Strikes? I don't know, but at this point, I don't think any of us know what would be best for this obvious Black Fog problem.
Hidden companions are not the only ones that can eliminate an enemy in one turn. Chantal does it all the time and if she doesn't destroy the target completely, she weakens it to the point of making it unnecessary to target that unit again because ambient epics will take care of it next round. Quint is also capable of doing this. Baar is another. These companions, with the exception of Baar (who is difficult to obtain) are not available to Bucklers and don't need a hidden to be extremely powerful. Chantal and Quint are both better than Fan and anyone who can't see that is living in a fantasy world. This measure is as far as a fix to Black Fog can go without rendering what is the Buckler's signature power useless.

Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
I've read all of the arguments and theories to implementing "an indirect counter to Black Fog", and I, as a swashbuckler main, feel that some things should specifically be brought to light before this "debate" drags on.

Firstly, I think it should be noted that First Strike/Quickdraw/Intuition rank 3 epics were supposed to be removing hidden like they are now this entire time (since the epics were released with the mb/aq update). Rank 3 of each of these epic talents states that it "spots sneak attackers and deals +25% damage (weapon/ranged/magic)". Please correct me if I am wrong, but from my knowledge, attacks on a target while hidden (I believe) are indeed considered "sneak attacks".

This wasn't necessarily a change, but rather correcting a mechanic that was not working as intended from when it was originally put into the game (from what I understand).

2- "Hidden"

One thing that stands out to me personally is seeing certain arguments go between black fog and simply "being hidden". Now here, this is where I feel a lot of misconception might come into play. I recall when hidden was almost a joke before the hide update, where it was possible to avoid hidden 100%, with mere aoe's and/or knowledge of positioning. As of right now in live realm, it IS still possible to avoid hidden, but it is that much harder after the hidden update.

To me, dealing with black fog and hidden is virtually the same thing, just on different levels of threat (hidden in numbers). Now I don't know if this will ever be a completely resolved thing, but I can tell you firsthand that a big initial step to resolving this would be adapting to hidden/fog (since it seems to have become one argument more than the original just black fog). I mean, if the way fog is used is more or less the same thing more or less, by now, shouldn't one know how to "counter" it by now? Or perhaps "counter" is a term with too lose a meaning for this instance.

And not to be so literal,
"...sacrificing toughness for damage."

Lieutenant
May 09, 2013
157
Ratbeard, i completely see your point about forcing swashbucklers to change their companion compositions. The game will be more interesting, almost like a guessing game where you try to predict how ranged or melee your opponent will be, if that's the right way to say that.

My problem as a buccaneer is that the only AoE I have without gear is gunnery. The only companions I get naturally with AoE are bonnie, scratch, ratbeard, and zeena I believe. As long as my opponent doesn't train repel boarders/overwatch or cheap shot/parting shot, it's pretty hard to play aggressive without gear. I have adapted and gotten Lo Pan's cloak, ring of St. basset, and working on plantari of eagilles. I think this might be able to do something against a swashbuckler, but the problem is, this alternate gear doesn't work as well against other classes (eg witchdoctors would out-range me).

I'm wondering, before a ranked pvp match starts, could players have a chance to adjust their gear once they know what class their opponent is? Make it so that the player can't "peek" at what the other player is putting on for gear, give it like a 2-minute timer or something.

I think this would make matches more interesting, and players would use gear they wouldn't normally have used before for class-specific situations.

What do you think?

Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
Alex Hawkins on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
Thanks for the shout-out to my post on Central. My point about just using Nausica and another ranged companion works because it is exactly what will happen. I don't see how it would benefit the defender. My current team before the change was Swash, Fan, Nausica and Goronado. Now I will just replace Goronado with Bonnie, or any of the Magnificent Seven with a critical card. It changes barely anything on my team. While for the defender, he has to sacrifice so much, and just for the possibility that he might face a Swashbuckler in ranked.

If my opponent split their focus and bring ranged and melee units with quick draw 3/first strike 3, I just attack melee with ranged and ranged with melee. If they bring all 3 first strike 3 companions, I just focus them down with my Muskets and use my melee on his player character since no other class except for Swashbuckler can get first strike 3. If my opponent brings all 3 quick draw units, then myself and my melee companion make short work of them and then Nausica with a fortress will eat up quick draw units like breakfast.

The fix changes nothing and just makes it a small inconvenience to walk around. It is way too easy to avoid. You call this having to adapt, but it doesn't matter if the result after the update is still the same result before the update, Swashbucklers dominating.

I don't necessarily agree with Eric's idea here because I think it would just be like Scent and make hidden completely useless. I have been a strong advocate of NOT wanting to make the power completely useless, just toning it down a bit. Any approach epic like Scent or Overwatch 3/Repel 3 removing hidden would make it way too easy to make Black Fog useless. I am still of the idea that the best solution would be to tone down the damage bonus. Either from x2 to x1.5, or implementing Valkoor's idea of the damage bonus going down the more turns you are hidden. Either would solve the black fog problem without making it completely useless.

-Alex Deathflame
Only Musketeers and Witchdoctors would consider bringing in a QD3 companion, and both of which have counters to the DT/BF (Burst Fire, not Black Fog) chains: agility buffs. WD have all their Juju's and Musketeer's have all their Sky Spirits.

If you ask me, bringing in anymore than 1 companion with QD3 or FS3 is not a bright idea. All classes have access to at least 3 VF's, which would successfully shield your MVU's while having your FS/QD 3 companions without any shields, because the don't need 'em!

Also, Nausica is barely a problem for my Buccaneer or Swashbuckler. Firstly, my buckler can hide all companions (obviously) and my buccaneer has 3 VF's to shield my units from her attacks. Once they survive, it's a simple matter of 3v1 + Relentless/Blade Storm chains and Nausica is done even if she has VF on.

For any Privateers, I suggest getting one of those Sky Spirit gear to counter Nausica's chains, plus they have access to 5 VF's!

You don't seem to be looking very hard for counters to BF. That's not to say you aren't, but it does seem that way. Maybe if you try fighting it instead of using it you'd find more counters. Just sayin'. (The assumption made based on the fact that all your examples involve you using BF and your enemies being unable to defend against it.)

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Jul 31, 2015 wrote:
Only 1 Black Fog, which is the only power in consideration.

I've already mentioned before the vast array of "double damage guaranteed" powers available to pirates of other classes (but most notably Musketeers).

Musketeers, in fact, have double damage guaranteed on multiple area of effect attacks. They do double damage guaranteed to more than one enemy at a time. I'm not talking about chains; I mean that the powers are literally set to deal 2x or more of your weapon power or spell power.

Musketeers and Witchdoctors can freely target swashbucklers with an AoE. You can even hide first. And the Swashbuckler can't reveal you with FS3.

Anyhow... "Double Damage Guaranteed" was baked into the mix a long time ago, for all classes.
*looks at privateer powers* hmmmmmmm i see a damage increase of about 20 *looks at my 300 damage* my math isnt too good but i dont think 20 is even half of 300 *looks at powers again* i see some bombs, better hope my enemy is foolish enough to stand in a square for me so i can do 300 damage to their team * looks again* i see focus fire, oh wait, thats only 25%

my point is, privateers dont have double damaged baked into its mix unless you intend for me to spam all my wills buffs( oh wait they dont stack) my focus fire, and my fighting fervor for something even less then double damage

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