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A Frank Discussion on 'Hide'

AuthorMessage
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
It is right now because there is no reason not to use it in the first round. Because you know that you can reach the enemy while hidden and probably wipe them out, unless they are a musket with many bombs, or someone with hard to get gear. So there basically is no strategy to it right now, its very easy, just go hidden in the first round with black fog, move up, and most of the time wipe out the other team without difficulty.

On the other hand, you could just separate, come together again a few spaces further down the board, and then use it if it lasts for 3 rounds. It would be a bit more of a challenge for the swashbuckler, because the enemy might actually be able to attack before it can be used. So if you want to leave it as is, where you are guaranteed to have hidden attacks on the opponent, that's fine, but from the other perspective, it would at least give the opponent a chance to survive, especially in a 1v1 or 2v2 pvp match.
You don't get it, I don't care about pvp, it's not my thing. Reducing BF or even WID to 3 rounds isn't likely to happen just because pvp-ers can't handle it.
I have given you some suggestions on how to fight a hidden opponent from my experience in pve. The times I was popped out of hide by auto talent attacks, the times I had to pick my way carefully through bombs and traps in Marleybone, all this has given me an insight on hide and it's limitations.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
You don't get it, I don't care about pvp, it's not my thing. Reducing BF or even WID to 3 rounds isn't likely to happen just because pvp-ers can't handle it.
I have given you some suggestions on how to fight a hidden opponent from my experience in pve. The times I was popped out of hide by auto talent attacks, the times I had to pick my way carefully through bombs and traps in Marleybone, all this has given me an insight on hide and it's limitations.
Well, the thing is, there are people who care about both PVP and PVE, like myself. As I stated earlier, reducing Black Fog to 3 rounds would be more fair for PVP (for those who do care about it) but still be strong enough to be effective in PVE.

Taking people out of hide in PVP due to auto attack talents is usually not possible anyway, unless the buckler is using companions with repel borders, or if they use flanking and position their companions poorly.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
anecorbie on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
You don't get it, I don't care about pvp, it's not my thing. Reducing BF or even WID to 3 rounds isn't likely to happen just because pvp-ers can't handle it.
I have given you some suggestions on how to fight a hidden opponent from my experience in pve. The times I was popped out of hide by auto talent attacks, the times I had to pick my way carefully through bombs and traps in Marleybone, all this has given me an insight on hide and it's limitations.
i'll respond to you here, you get double damage from it, there is your stack, 2 assassins in one

and lol really I'm sorry but you cant be seriously comparing MB battles with an easy computer on the other team to battles with an intelligent thinking human being. and auto talents rarely happen, overwatch, flanking(don't flank like for real its easy), cheap shot(why would you even have this?), vengeance(requires scent which is broken atm), first trike 3(requires scent which is broken), and repel boarders(again why would you have this), riposte(requires scent), return fire(requires scent)

overwatch=bonnie

flanking=fan

repel=sarah, ratbeard(lol why on a buckler)

my conclusion, your "limitations" on hidden are very few and all can be corrected with guess what STRATEGY
black fog shouldn't be op just because pve-ers cant handle moo manchus tower and smugglers without it

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Let me be clear, I really don't want Black Fog reduced in rounds, it's my most effective buff and, as it has been pointed out ends, when I complete a successful attack.
Other buffs don't end with an attack and can be stacked, mine can not. Reducing it by two rounds reduces the amount of time I can use it, I need it to be at it's full time.
Other hides can be used in shielding me from an attack while I heal myself or crew, Walk in Darkness is also 5 rounds, are you going to demand a reduction for that, too? Or maybe you won't because this power is available with a gear card which anyone can use.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
Let me be clear, I really don't want Black Fog reduced in rounds, it's my most effective buff and, as it has been pointed out ends, when I complete a successful attack.
Other buffs don't end with an attack and can be stacked, mine can not. Reducing it by two rounds reduces the amount of time I can use it, I need it to be at it's full time.
Other hides can be used in shielding me from an attack while I heal myself or crew, Walk in Darkness is also 5 rounds, are you going to demand a reduction for that, too? Or maybe you won't because this power is available with a gear card which anyone can use.
Black fog affects the whole team, unlike Walk in Darkness. No need to change that power.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
zuto4011a on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
i'll respond to you here, you get double damage from it, there is your stack, 2 assassins in one

and lol really I'm sorry but you cant be seriously comparing MB battles with an easy computer on the other team to battles with an intelligent thinking human being. and auto talents rarely happen, overwatch, flanking(don't flank like for real its easy), cheap shot(why would you even have this?), vengeance(requires scent which is broken atm), first trike 3(requires scent which is broken), and repel boarders(again why would you have this), riposte(requires scent), return fire(requires scent)

overwatch=bonnie

flanking=fan

repel=sarah, ratbeard(lol why on a buckler)

my conclusion, your "limitations" on hidden are very few and all can be corrected with guess what STRATEGY
black fog shouldn't be op just because pve-ers cant handle moo manchus tower and smugglers without it
Even though Black Fog is in my first slot, there have been plenty times when it DIDN'T show either at all or in the 2nd or 3rd round; so I have done the Tower: especially the Nef-5 fight without it ( and have done rather well, the only problem was that Sarah was more apt to be defeated.)
I NEVER use BF on floor 9 out of consideration for other team mates - even if it shows up. For a very good reason, if I use it and I tell others I'm using it so they can get the benefit; inevitably there is one team that can't get near to use it. With the result that they end up as the only target and become pavement paste.
I don't use BF when fighting Moo either; reason-see above. I do use a hide in the last part to attack Moo, so as to avoid being chopped by his statues.
So TY for the advice on strategy, zuto.
I don't consider myself fighting a machine, I'm fighting the Devs of KI; and their fiendish cunning in designing dungeons. I take exception on the "thinking human being" part of your argument, btw. A good deal of success or failure depends on farmed gear and luck. If pvp-ers were really concerned with strategy and skill, they would fight without powers from gear, use only a basic class weapon and the powers they trained, No Crown Shop or bundle companions and no doubloons. Yet I don't see this in Brawl Hall.
"Auto talents rarely happen". I can't count the number of times auto has popped me or a companion out of hide, yes, even in a pvp match ( I play with friends in my home or theirs )
It is the main reason I don't use the Nefarious Knives at all.
Hides are my only buff, we're not as blessed as Privateers, Witchdoctors, Musketeers or even Buccaneers.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
zuto4011a on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
i'll respond to you here, you get double damage from it, there is your stack, 2 assassins in one

and lol really I'm sorry but you cant be seriously comparing MB battles with an easy computer on the other team to battles with an intelligent thinking human being. and auto talents rarely happen, overwatch, flanking(don't flank like for real its easy), cheap shot(why would you even have this?), vengeance(requires scent which is broken atm), first trike 3(requires scent which is broken), and repel boarders(again why would you have this), riposte(requires scent), return fire(requires scent)

overwatch=bonnie

flanking=fan

repel=sarah, ratbeard(lol why on a buckler)

my conclusion, your "limitations" on hidden are very few and all can be corrected with guess what STRATEGY
black fog shouldn't be op just because pve-ers cant handle moo manchus tower and smugglers without it
How many team buffs do you have? How many can be stacked? How many enhance your crews stats?
BF is my ONLY team buff, it can't be stacked, it goes away when I use it, therefore 'nerfing' it by reducing rounds SERIOUSLY diminishes my and my crew's ( who don't move as fast as I do ) capabilities.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
There seems to be no middle ground to be reached in this debate; the pvp-ers want BF ( or any hide ) to be nerfed. The pve-ers love their hides and want them to be left alone.
I'm going to make a suggestion that may satisfy some ( and may get me in trouble with the buckler community. )
This is: make Poison an attack without the 2x damage buff.
A favored strategy is to use Assassin's Shroud while hidden, then the next round use Assassin's Strike or Gambit/Dance of Steel.
Because Shroud prevents personal healing ( or is it group? ) It is a serious de-buff and therefore IMO constitutes an attack.
So what do you say?

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
anecorbie on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
How many team buffs do you have? How many can be stacked? How many enhance your crews stats?
BF is my ONLY team buff, it can't be stacked, it goes away when I use it, therefore 'nerfing' it by reducing rounds SERIOUSLY diminishes my and my crew's ( who don't move as fast as I do ) capabilities.
You have some valid points, and I think both sides to this discussion do. I would still be interested to see if Ratbeard has any feedback on the suggestions.

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
There seems to be no middle ground to be reached in this debate; the pvp-ers want BF ( or any hide ) to be nerfed. The pve-ers love their hides and want them to be left alone.
I'm going to make a suggestion that may satisfy some ( and may get me in trouble with the buckler community. )
This is: make Poison an attack without the 2x damage buff.
A favored strategy is to use Assassin's Shroud while hidden, then the next round use Assassin's Strike or Gambit/Dance of Steel.
Because Shroud prevents personal healing ( or is it group? ) It is a serious de-buff and therefore IMO constitutes an attack.
So what do you say?
Just wanted to throw this out: Is there a reason that a power cannot behave differently in PVP vs PVE? There is probably a reason for this, mostly due to coding and the problems that could cause when PVP becomes something that has an effect on game play, but I thought I would ask.

Also, what if being hidden by BF means you cannot be targeted by Friend or Foe? I don't play swash, so this could be completely off, but what if you cannot be healed/buffed while you are hidden? Again, this may be a horrid idea, but just thinking up some random stuff.
Also, what if scent worked more like Charming Gaze, where it only hits about 1/3rd of the time or maybe the chance could depend on your dodge, meaning that it is easier to stop non-swashbuckler companions.

Ensign
Jun 13, 2014
48
stormy quentin ver... on Apr 21, 2015 wrote:
Thats true, but no other buff compares to black fog in terms of effectiveness and damage. Again, I think that making it 3 turns would make things more balanced, a buckler can still use it, they would just have to move their team up a few spaces in PVP, instead of using it right away.

Actually, my main point in giving this suggestion about reducing it to 3 turns is to hopefully get Ratbeard's opinion on it. I don't blame swashbucklers for not wanting it to be changed, because its so powerful, and I don't think anyone is being convinced by others' suggestions.
Power has nothing to do with it actually- I think changing something that works just fine in PvE for the sake of PvP is a bad idea.

IMO, this game wasn't really designed with PvP in mind- so- changing something which is balanced just fine for PvE makes no sense.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Jack Harkness on Apr 23, 2015 wrote:
Power has nothing to do with it actually- I think changing something that works just fine in PvE for the sake of PvP is a bad idea.

IMO, this game wasn't really designed with PvP in mind- so- changing something which is balanced just fine for PvE makes no sense.
As stated earlier, there are a lot of people who care about PVP. And PVP is part of the game, so it is part of its design. We are just trying to come up with ideas to make it better for PVP while still keeping PVE in mind

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Voodoo Cornelius on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
Just wanted to throw this out: Is there a reason that a power cannot behave differently in PVP vs PVE? There is probably a reason for this, mostly due to coding and the problems that could cause when PVP becomes something that has an effect on game play, but I thought I would ask.

Also, what if being hidden by BF means you cannot be targeted by Friend or Foe? I don't play swash, so this could be completely off, but what if you cannot be healed/buffed while you are hidden? Again, this may be a horrid idea, but just thinking up some random stuff.
Also, what if scent worked more like Charming Gaze, where it only hits about 1/3rd of the time or maybe the chance could depend on your dodge, meaning that it is easier to stop non-swashbuckler companions.
Part of hide is the capability to use it defensively, I have used WIS or WID to either shield or heal myself ( or a vulnerable crew member ) without being attacked during the round I use this. And this is a major difference in pve vs pvp; The AI in pve will ignore me at this time and not attack me, but in pvp an "Intelligent thinking human being" will.
Charming Gaze ( unless you're WD ) only triggers if attacked, I'm assuming you're talking about pets or the Masque of the Lotus in that case.
Scent is definitely working in the Tower, where the ancient foo lions on floor six have this talent. Any hide is practically useless there.
post edit: There is probably a sound technological reason that a power used in pve can't be changed for pvp.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Voodoo Cornelius on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
Just wanted to throw this out: Is there a reason that a power cannot behave differently in PVP vs PVE? There is probably a reason for this, mostly due to coding and the problems that could cause when PVP becomes something that has an effect on game play, but I thought I would ask.

Also, what if being hidden by BF means you cannot be targeted by Friend or Foe? I don't play swash, so this could be completely off, but what if you cannot be healed/buffed while you are hidden? Again, this may be a horrid idea, but just thinking up some random stuff.
Also, what if scent worked more like Charming Gaze, where it only hits about 1/3rd of the time or maybe the chance could depend on your dodge, meaning that it is easier to stop non-swashbuckler companions.
I would compromise on my beliefs with the no buffing and healing while hidden, since you are "hidden" would make sense if you cant be targeted by anyone

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
zuto4011a on Apr 22, 2015 wrote:
i'll respond to you here, you get double damage from it, there is your stack, 2 assassins in one

and lol really I'm sorry but you cant be seriously comparing MB battles with an easy computer on the other team to battles with an intelligent thinking human being. and auto talents rarely happen, overwatch, flanking(don't flank like for real its easy), cheap shot(why would you even have this?), vengeance(requires scent which is broken atm), first trike 3(requires scent which is broken), and repel boarders(again why would you have this), riposte(requires scent), return fire(requires scent)

overwatch=bonnie

flanking=fan

repel=sarah, ratbeard(lol why on a buckler)

my conclusion, your "limitations" on hidden are very few and all can be corrected with guess what STRATEGY
black fog shouldn't be op just because pve-ers cant handle moo manchus tower and smugglers without it
Zuto, you have often demonstrated your contempt for me and my opinions, I'm not going to descend into a slanging match with you.
I ask you this; however, why is it that I'm the only one who has offered a strategy for use against a hidden opponent, while you haven't?
With all your insight in pvp against "intelligent, thinking human beings", why haven't you developed a strategy?
If you had developed a strategy, you wouldn't be posting demands for a counter or a nerf for hide.
Your last statement can easily be turned and used against you; hide can be over come "by guess what STRATEGY."

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
zuto4011a on Apr 24, 2015 wrote:
I would compromise on my beliefs with the no buffing and healing while hidden, since you are "hidden" would make sense if you cant be targeted by anyone
But I can be hit with AoEs, so if I hide in necessity to heal or shield, you can still harm me. So you can in a sense target and hit me causing damage.
If I were truly "untargetable", you wouldn't even be able to use an AoE.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
I'm a little bit late to the party, but as one of the most outspoken players against the hidden change back in September, I figured I should step in and give my opinion after so many months.

To get straight to the point, Black Fog in its current iteration is the single best power in the game. Five turns, hide your whole team from pretty much most damage and be free to approach your opponent at your leisure.

PvP duels are decided on whoever is able to position themselves better in the board compared to their opponent. If you make one mistake and move your Nausica too close to your opponent's Nausica, expect to lose her that next turn. Black Fog allows you to completely ignore this "art" of PvP and makes it nearly impossible for your opponent to defend against your approach unless they themselves have their own black fog.

Now, notice how I said nearly. Black fog is not unbeatable by any means. There are ways to defeat a 5 turn all team hidden, but those strategies are VERY specific and hard to pull off. Those who have PvPed recently know what I'm talking about with the banner + scorpions/warriors + Baar's summons + yagi/po's hiddens, etc. My point is that just because a strategy is beatable, does not mean it isn't too strong. I would say a good Swashbuckler can win 80%+ of their duels against non-Swashbucklers just because of Black fog.

Even after all these months, I still think the hide change was too much. Every battle now comes down to whoever has more hides, or whoever uses their hide after their opponent. I know Ratbeard feels this is the best change he has ever made to the game, so my only request is for the KI staff to at least take a look at Black Fog. You can play around all other hiddens, but going against a Swashbuckler with black fog is almost always a loss.

As for PvE, lets not kid ourselves. It is broken there too. There is a reason Swashbucklers can solo the Tower of Moo Manchu without doubloons. Black fog made PvE a joke.

-Alex Deathflame

Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
anecorbie on Apr 23, 2015 wrote:
Part of hide is the capability to use it defensively, I have used WIS or WID to either shield or heal myself ( or a vulnerable crew member ) without being attacked during the round I use this. And this is a major difference in pve vs pvp; The AI in pve will ignore me at this time and not attack me, but in pvp an "Intelligent thinking human being" will.
Charming Gaze ( unless you're WD ) only triggers if attacked, I'm assuming you're talking about pets or the Masque of the Lotus in that case.
Scent is definitely working in the Tower, where the ancient foo lions on floor six have this talent. Any hide is practically useless there.
post edit: There is probably a sound technological reason that a power used in pve can't be changed for pvp.
So to the first part:
I have used WIS or WID to either shield or heal myself ( or a vulnerable crew member ) without being attacked during the round I use this
Again, I am only talking about BF, not WIS/WID.
And what I mean is that Scent be put on some items, but it would only work some of the time.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Alex Hawkins on Apr 25, 2015 wrote:
I'm a little bit late to the party, but as one of the most outspoken players against the hidden change back in September, I figured I should step in and give my opinion after so many months.

To get straight to the point, Black Fog in its current iteration is the single best power in the game. Five turns, hide your whole team from pretty much most damage and be free to approach your opponent at your leisure.

PvP duels are decided on whoever is able to position themselves better in the board compared to their opponent. If you make one mistake and move your Nausica too close to your opponent's Nausica, expect to lose her that next turn. Black Fog allows you to completely ignore this "art" of PvP and makes it nearly impossible for your opponent to defend against your approach unless they themselves have their own black fog.

Now, notice how I said nearly. Black fog is not unbeatable by any means. There are ways to defeat a 5 turn all team hidden, but those strategies are VERY specific and hard to pull off. Those who have PvPed recently know what I'm talking about with the banner + scorpions/warriors + Baar's summons + yagi/po's hiddens, etc. My point is that just because a strategy is beatable, does not mean it isn't too strong. I would say a good Swashbuckler can win 80%+ of their duels against non-Swashbucklers just because of Black fog.

Even after all these months, I still think the hide change was too much. Every battle now comes down to whoever has more hides, or whoever uses their hide after their opponent. I know Ratbeard feels this is the best change he has ever made to the game, so my only request is for the KI staff to at least take a look at Black Fog. You can play around all other hiddens, but going against a Swashbuckler with black fog is almost always a loss.

As for PvE, lets not kid ourselves. It is broken there too. There is a reason Swashbucklers can solo the Tower of Moo Manchu without doubloons. Black fog made PvE a joke.

-Alex Deathflame
What SBs are soloing that Tower using exclusively 'Hides'? At this point in time, the only reason I haven't suffered a defeat in PVE is because I'm max level with Tower gear. The only challenge I get is the Arena and even then with BF it's a 50 - 50 chance of not finishing. In fact the times I've run an Arena it was a heal my pet grants me ( regroup ) that had a bigger impact on me and the team, without it, very likely we would have lost those runs.
Really, if you want to convince me that BF is OP that it's making PVE 'a joke' is to give a solid specific example.
Maybe we should wait until the next book and see if BF has the type of impact you believe is happening and not base your assertions on PVP duels.
Why aren't I hearing from swashbucklers who PVP on this post? At least either in agreement of what I'm saying about hide or the strategies possible in it's use.
Suggestions?

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Alex Hawkins on Apr 25, 2015 wrote:
I'm a little bit late to the party, but as one of the most outspoken players against the hidden change back in September, I figured I should step in and give my opinion after so many months.

To get straight to the point, Black Fog in its current iteration is the single best power in the game. Five turns, hide your whole team from pretty much most damage and be free to approach your opponent at your leisure.

PvP duels are decided on whoever is able to position themselves better in the board compared to their opponent. If you make one mistake and move your Nausica too close to your opponent's Nausica, expect to lose her that next turn. Black Fog allows you to completely ignore this "art" of PvP and makes it nearly impossible for your opponent to defend against your approach unless they themselves have their own black fog.

Now, notice how I said nearly. Black fog is not unbeatable by any means. There are ways to defeat a 5 turn all team hidden, but those strategies are VERY specific and hard to pull off. Those who have PvPed recently know what I'm talking about with the banner + scorpions/warriors + Baar's summons + yagi/po's hiddens, etc. My point is that just because a strategy is beatable, does not mean it isn't too strong. I would say a good Swashbuckler can win 80%+ of their duels against non-Swashbucklers just because of Black fog.

Even after all these months, I still think the hide change was too much. Every battle now comes down to whoever has more hides, or whoever uses their hide after their opponent. I know Ratbeard feels this is the best change he has ever made to the game, so my only request is for the KI staff to at least take a look at Black Fog. You can play around all other hiddens, but going against a Swashbuckler with black fog is almost always a loss.

As for PvE, lets not kid ourselves. It is broken there too. There is a reason Swashbucklers can solo the Tower of Moo Manchu without doubloons. Black fog made PvE a joke.

-Alex Deathflame
I agree with what you are saying. I don't think hide itself is going to be changed by KI again, so Black Fog should really be looked at. Even in challenging PVE areas, like the Tower and Smugglers Arena, swashbucklers have a huge advantage over any other class with Black Fog. Just go hidden, then use yourself and companions to do a guaranteed hidden super attack. I dont think that one class should have such a strong power, when nothing else that is comparable can be found in any other class, and I am referring to PVE here.

Lieutenant
May 09, 2009
110
Hey! I'm a swashbuckler myself and i figured I would post my opinion on this. I think black fog is majorly over powered and something show make it more fair. I think not letting aoe's destroy the hide was a good change. At this point I haven't lost a single battle because I can just black fog everyone first turn, use buffs, and take out 50-75% of my opponents team. Yes there are some things to stop hide, but at this point they don't help enough and doesn't stop black fog. I've been through Moo Manchu many times and I've never had a creature with scent destroy any of my hides. Thanks for listening!

The Loyal Swashbuckler

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
anecorbie on Apr 25, 2015 wrote:
What SBs are soloing that Tower using exclusively 'Hides'? At this point in time, the only reason I haven't suffered a defeat in PVE is because I'm max level with Tower gear. The only challenge I get is the Arena and even then with BF it's a 50 - 50 chance of not finishing. In fact the times I've run an Arena it was a heal my pet grants me ( regroup ) that had a bigger impact on me and the team, without it, very likely we would have lost those runs.
Really, if you want to convince me that BF is OP that it's making PVE 'a joke' is to give a solid specific example.
Maybe we should wait until the next book and see if BF has the type of impact you believe is happening and not base your assertions on PVP duels.
Why aren't I hearing from swashbucklers who PVP on this post? At least either in agreement of what I'm saying about hide or the strategies possible in it's use.
Suggestions?
You are hearing from Swashbucklers who PvP. I am one of those Swashbucklers, so is The Loyal Swashbuckler above. Most players, Swashbuckler or not, who have dueled enough times since the hidden change will tell you that Black Fog is too strong. But lets leave the PvP behind and talk PvE.

If you want "direct" proof of how a Swashbuckler can easily solo the Tower or the Smuggler's Arena, I'm willing to meet up with you and run my Swashbuckler through both dungeons as you watch on the side. I gave you a specific example of why Black Fog makes PvE a joke, it allows a class to solo the two dungeons that are supposed to be the most challenging in the game.

You know how simple it is to Black Fog your whole team the first turn and know that the PvE mobs won't be attacking you at all for a good 5 turns? Is not like in PvP where the player can AoE you, if your whole team is hidden the PvE mobs will just move around the board with no one to attack. In those 5 turns I can shield myself, buff myself, place my companions in just the right spot, etc. all without taking a single hit in damage from the mobs. Then the turn before Fog runs out, I just one shot most of the mobs with hidden assassin strikes or hidden super criticals from my companions. Its too easy and too mindless to PvE as a Swashbuckler once you obtain Black Fog.

I am talking from experience doing PvE on how broken Black Fog is. I have ran the tower a combined 75 times with my main account. Have ran the Smuggler's Arena about 15-20 times as well to its completion. Ever since the gear was made trade-able I only use my Swashbuckler to run the Tower because of just how easy it is with Black Fog compared to other classes. Even in the floor where the mobs are supposed to have scent and sneaky sneaky, is too easy to maneuver around them. Kingsisle would have to give every enemy in future worlds Scent 2 or 3 to make the game difficult for Swashbucklers with black fog.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Alex Hawkins on Apr 27, 2015 wrote:
You are hearing from Swashbucklers who PvP. I am one of those Swashbucklers, so is The Loyal Swashbuckler above. Most players, Swashbuckler or not, who have dueled enough times since the hidden change will tell you that Black Fog is too strong. But lets leave the PvP behind and talk PvE.

If you want "direct" proof of how a Swashbuckler can easily solo the Tower or the Smuggler's Arena, I'm willing to meet up with you and run my Swashbuckler through both dungeons as you watch on the side. I gave you a specific example of why Black Fog makes PvE a joke, it allows a class to solo the two dungeons that are supposed to be the most challenging in the game.

You know how simple it is to Black Fog your whole team the first turn and know that the PvE mobs won't be attacking you at all for a good 5 turns? Is not like in PvP where the player can AoE you, if your whole team is hidden the PvE mobs will just move around the board with no one to attack. In those 5 turns I can shield myself, buff myself, place my companions in just the right spot, etc. all without taking a single hit in damage from the mobs. Then the turn before Fog runs out, I just one shot most of the mobs with hidden assassin strikes or hidden super criticals from my companions. Its too easy and too mindless to PvE as a Swashbuckler once you obtain Black Fog.

I am talking from experience doing PvE on how broken Black Fog is. I have ran the tower a combined 75 times with my main account. Have ran the Smuggler's Arena about 15-20 times as well to its completion. Ever since the gear was made trade-able I only use my Swashbuckler to run the Tower because of just how easy it is with Black Fog compared to other classes. Even in the floor where the mobs are supposed to have scent and sneaky sneaky, is too easy to maneuver around them. Kingsisle would have to give every enemy in future worlds Scent 2 or 3 to make the game difficult for Swashbucklers with black fog.
i'll leave the hidden argument to you, you seem to be doing a better job then me

Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
anecorbie on Apr 20, 2015 wrote:
Your Zeal can be stacked with other buffs, I can't stack hide, poisons or back stab/assassin's strike, so how is that even comparable?
No, but you can use your increase critical, agility buff, and perhaps put up a fort......then walk over and do a curse. Not necessarily including all of these...

Virtuous Dante Ramsey

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
DuranteRamses87 on Apr 28, 2015 wrote:
No, but you can use your increase critical, agility buff, and perhaps put up a fort......then walk over and do a curse. Not necessarily including all of these...

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Yup, no other pirate class has the option to hide their entire team, buff for several rounds, use protection, cause damage with poison, all without taking a single hit from the enemy in PVE or just be exposed to AOE in PVP. And although other classes may have some more stackable buffs, another important difference is that these are all based on chance. They increase your chance to hit/dodge/relentless/critical, depending on the buff, but only Black Fog gives you a guaranteed double damage attack from your whole team.