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Moo Manchu robe

AuthorMessage
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Why was the moo Manchu robe not banned but the hat and boots were? In my opinion the robe was far stronger than those two giving you 9 units with brutal charge and self destruct damage afterwards not to mention if they are summoned first turn and they use call its too much advantage from 1 power and it uses up so much resource

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
its required to have this robes to be good in pvp now, i have them and i believe they should be banned, they along with scorpion staff and beast banner allow for no variety in ranked

Developer
*Generally* speaking you can be confident that if something is on the banned list, it is because the power is not working as intended in the PvP format. The hat and boots were banned because they did not work as intended in the 4-for-all. Their power was amplified by the format and the crowded board.

The robe was never under consideration for banning. It works as intended. It's powerful, and it's available to everyone. Is it a must have item? That's for the players to decide. An item's popularity is not necessarily an indication of a problem. If popularity were a criteria for moving to the banned list, then that would simply mean that whatever the #2 "awesome item" is moves into the #1 spot.

The ban list would become a treadmill, and that's not what we want. Ideally, powers get fixed and come OFF the ban list.

Balance issues are better addressed through balancing than banning. You can think of that as a "goal" more than a "policy" but that's the gist.

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Well, in a way you are right, it is quite the advantage, but it is not acting weirdly(like Blood Flames and Charm/Charming Gaze), or provides a 1 turn stun(like Infernal Wave and Frozen Tide). With that said there are ways to counter this power even from turn 2:

s just have to drop some bombs and have an overwatch(2 or higher is best) team. This takes care of the majority of them, and dealing with the rest(even with their levy up) is relatively easy.

s can use Big guns and have a repel boarders(2 or higher) team to take care of most of them; Marchioness can use her dispel to get rid of the accuracy debuffs.
s can use aoes and some have readied spell, which is helpful. Witch Doctors have magic, but just in case Carcarius and all Witchdoctors carry Purge Magic which can get rid of the levy. Plus, most Witchdoctors don't even need accuracy, so ...
s can just fog and walk around, or fog after they hit to wait out the debuff/Levy, or just spar with them for awhile
s ... okay I admit they can give a big disadvantage to them because not only do they charge you and you cannot do much, but also they all have hold 3, which when placed correctly can make it so we cannot rush the opponent before they rush us. At best, you can use Technomage glasses to get a dispel magic.

The main reason Terror-cotta did not see a ban is because there was no bug and there are ways around it. You just have to find them (although making it easier for s to get around this power would be nice)

-Stormy Sam Templeton 65

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Sunny Wolf on Aug 5, 2015 wrote:
Why was the moo Manchu robe not banned but the hat and boots were? In my opinion the robe was far stronger than those two giving you 9 units with brutal charge and self destruct damage afterwards not to mention if they are summoned first turn and they use call its too much advantage from 1 power and it uses up so much resource
And it can be used in conjunction with the Nefarious Staff; this situation completely unbalances PVP.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 5, 2015 wrote:
*Generally* speaking you can be confident that if something is on the banned list, it is because the power is not working as intended in the PvP format. The hat and boots were banned because they did not work as intended in the 4-for-all. Their power was amplified by the format and the crowded board.

The robe was never under consideration for banning. It works as intended. It's powerful, and it's available to everyone. Is it a must have item? That's for the players to decide. An item's popularity is not necessarily an indication of a problem. If popularity were a criteria for moving to the banned list, then that would simply mean that whatever the #2 "awesome item" is moves into the #1 spot.

The ban list would become a treadmill, and that's not what we want. Ideally, powers get fixed and come OFF the ban list.

Balance issues are better addressed through balancing than banning. You can think of that as a "goal" more than a "policy" but that's the gist.
My balance suggestion for the robe is to prevent to Warriors from being able to use Leviathan's Call turn one. Usually the summons will always choose to attack if they have a target available, however because turn one no one can move (including the summons), they will buff instead. In case of the Warriors, this means that ALL 9 warriors will use Leviathan's Call if they are summoned first turn.

With -50% damage reduction to themselves, and -50% accuracy reduction to most enemy units, it becomes quite a handful to deal with them even if you have a team full of overwatch units. This forces everyone to have to bring their own moo robe to try to fight that advantage.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Aug 5, 2015 wrote:
*Generally* speaking you can be confident that if something is on the banned list, it is because the power is not working as intended in the PvP format. The hat and boots were banned because they did not work as intended in the 4-for-all. Their power was amplified by the format and the crowded board.

The robe was never under consideration for banning. It works as intended. It's powerful, and it's available to everyone. Is it a must have item? That's for the players to decide. An item's popularity is not necessarily an indication of a problem. If popularity were a criteria for moving to the banned list, then that would simply mean that whatever the #2 "awesome item" is moves into the #1 spot.

The ban list would become a treadmill, and that's not what we want. Ideally, powers get fixed and come OFF the ban list.

Balance issues are better addressed through balancing than banning. You can think of that as a "goal" more than a "policy" but that's the gist.
im sorry but i dont think we're playing the same game, moo robe is clearly a problem, its easily the most op item in the game and is a must have, it easily outplays even the dreaded nefarious staff and beast banner 3*

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Aug 5, 2015 wrote:
*Generally* speaking you can be confident that if something is on the banned list, it is because the power is not working as intended in the PvP format. The hat and boots were banned because they did not work as intended in the 4-for-all. Their power was amplified by the format and the crowded board.

The robe was never under consideration for banning. It works as intended. It's powerful, and it's available to everyone. Is it a must have item? That's for the players to decide. An item's popularity is not necessarily an indication of a problem. If popularity were a criteria for moving to the banned list, then that would simply mean that whatever the #2 "awesome item" is moves into the #1 spot.

The ban list would become a treadmill, and that's not what we want. Ideally, powers get fixed and come OFF the ban list.

Balance issues are better addressed through balancing than banning. You can think of that as a "goal" more than a "policy" but that's the gist.
How exactly is it balanced? It gives you 9 extra units each with 699 health that have brutal charge and leviathans call not to mention turn the tide 2, bladestorm, cheap shot, Hold the line 3 and explosion. That's 9 brutal charges that will your units with a massive accuracy debuff making some of them unable to attack for several rounds and the damage adds up from 9 they also seem to have a high strength stat since they critical so often and the Hold the line 3 prevents you from attacking your opponent directly and the cheap shot discourages tying to disengage from and to top it off the explosion at the end will do damage since most of them time they will be surrounding your units since the brutal charge allows them to gap close right to your units they won't kill you but what they will do is force you to use so many resources and turns on them while your opponent is buffing or advancing in luxury with what back draw exactly?

On top of that people are using the robe because they have to because they want to win not because they want to because all the experienced players recognize its overpowered and its clearly mandatory if you want to compete because if you face someone with it you'll be in a clear disdadvantage but what does that result in? Frustrating matches that leave you thinking "If I want to win I have to use that robe too" and is it fun for anyone even using it? I sure as heck no one likes being at the other end of it but I doubt the people using it feel they have outplayed their out opponent merely overpowered them via powers.

Please balance this item out either remove the brutal charge or some epics off the warriors it gives too much for no cost the robe might as well say summon 9 mini-companions and gives 9 brutal charges because I'm pretty sure of everyone had the robe they would use it over whatever other gear they had and then all PvP will be people trying to get their warriors out first but I'm pretty sure high rank is already somewhat like that.

Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
I faced a Privateer who had the scorpion summons staff AND moo robe.

I obliterated her.

How? I was a musketeer with witch hunter so when it came down to only basic attacks, my hits would do about 200 and her hits would do about 70 damage because my witch hunter would half her damage. There was nothing she can do.

The troops and scorpions were a pain but did very little damage and actually blocked ways to attack me so I was practically being shielded by the summons. The summons did about 60 damage each.

Of course this was in free for all though BUT all her summons were coming straight at me.

I won the free for all btw. It lasted one hour. It was intense!!!!!!!!

Developer
Remember: Balance, not Ban.

During the run up and duration of Test we watched you guys debate this here and elsewhere, with different people coming down on both sides of it. (There certainly wasn't the same kind of unanimity or urgency that there was for Black Fog.)

Everybody values their character, and their powers, and they value the time, effort, and/or money that they put into getting the best gear. It's not fair to undercut that. Moreover, if it was simply a matter of "popular opinion" then you will probably always see 4 out of 5 players demanding a nerf to the top class-- which, frankly, is what we've seen repeatedly since unranked PvP was introduced and just about every time the level cap went up and new powers/talents were introduced.

Just doing a drive-by on a discussion thread yelling, "Ban this!" isn't a rational or reasonable request, and for that matter neither is, "We must have a direct counter!" So to those of you who have made suggestions below--thank you.

We are 100% with you that we don't want to create a situation where everybody feels compelled to have the same item.

So let's look at some of the other more interesting tools in the toolbox.

It's absolutely possible to change the powers on the Warriors-- even better, we can duplicate their powers, with one set for PvE and another set that is balance for PvP.

So what do you think?

1) Remove Charge and Levi Call.
2) Remove only Charge.
3) Remove only Levi Call.
4) Place a "chance to draw" on either or both Charge and Levi Call.

"Chance to draw" means that sometimes (say, 50%) the Warrior may or may not have the power at the start of the battle.

5) Something else?

Side note: I'd also like to (eventually) introduce a power that messes with summons (probably for Privateers, since messin' with crews is their schtick).

Ensign
Oct 22, 2012
18
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
Remember: Balance, not Ban.

During the run up and duration of Test we watched you guys debate this here and elsewhere, with different people coming down on both sides of it. (There certainly wasn't the same kind of unanimity or urgency that there was for Black Fog.)

Everybody values their character, and their powers, and they value the time, effort, and/or money that they put into getting the best gear. It's not fair to undercut that. Moreover, if it was simply a matter of "popular opinion" then you will probably always see 4 out of 5 players demanding a nerf to the top class-- which, frankly, is what we've seen repeatedly since unranked PvP was introduced and just about every time the level cap went up and new powers/talents were introduced.

Just doing a drive-by on a discussion thread yelling, "Ban this!" isn't a rational or reasonable request, and for that matter neither is, "We must have a direct counter!" So to those of you who have made suggestions below--thank you.

We are 100% with you that we don't want to create a situation where everybody feels compelled to have the same item.

So let's look at some of the other more interesting tools in the toolbox.

It's absolutely possible to change the powers on the Warriors-- even better, we can duplicate their powers, with one set for PvE and another set that is balance for PvP.

So what do you think?

1) Remove Charge and Levi Call.
2) Remove only Charge.
3) Remove only Levi Call.
4) Place a "chance to draw" on either or both Charge and Levi Call.

"Chance to draw" means that sometimes (say, 50%) the Warrior may or may not have the power at the start of the battle.

5) Something else?

Side note: I'd also like to (eventually) introduce a power that messes with summons (probably for Privateers, since messin' with crews is their schtick).
I think number 4 is the most balanced one because with that it won't be a guarantee charge/levi call that people fear. Though it would still be possible for all 9 charges, at least there is a chance that there won't be all 9 charges.

Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
Remember: Balance, not Ban.

During the run up and duration of Test we watched you guys debate this here and elsewhere, with different people coming down on both sides of it. (There certainly wasn't the same kind of unanimity or urgency that there was for Black Fog.)

Everybody values their character, and their powers, and they value the time, effort, and/or money that they put into getting the best gear. It's not fair to undercut that. Moreover, if it was simply a matter of "popular opinion" then you will probably always see 4 out of 5 players demanding a nerf to the top class-- which, frankly, is what we've seen repeatedly since unranked PvP was introduced and just about every time the level cap went up and new powers/talents were introduced.

Just doing a drive-by on a discussion thread yelling, "Ban this!" isn't a rational or reasonable request, and for that matter neither is, "We must have a direct counter!" So to those of you who have made suggestions below--thank you.

We are 100% with you that we don't want to create a situation where everybody feels compelled to have the same item.

So let's look at some of the other more interesting tools in the toolbox.

It's absolutely possible to change the powers on the Warriors-- even better, we can duplicate their powers, with one set for PvE and another set that is balance for PvP.

So what do you think?

1) Remove Charge and Levi Call.
2) Remove only Charge.
3) Remove only Levi Call.
4) Place a "chance to draw" on either or both Charge and Levi Call.

"Chance to draw" means that sometimes (say, 50%) the Warrior may or may not have the power at the start of the battle.

5) Something else?

Side note: I'd also like to (eventually) introduce a power that messes with summons (probably for Privateers, since messin' with crews is their schtick).
Remove only Charge, since this seems the most "OP" ( ? ) of the power choices.
Interesting power for Privateers, Ratbeard. will that "Messin' with Summons" be only PVP or also PVE?

Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
Remember: Balance, not Ban.

During the run up and duration of Test we watched you guys debate this here and elsewhere, with different people coming down on both sides of it. (There certainly wasn't the same kind of unanimity or urgency that there was for Black Fog.)

Everybody values their character, and their powers, and they value the time, effort, and/or money that they put into getting the best gear. It's not fair to undercut that. Moreover, if it was simply a matter of "popular opinion" then you will probably always see 4 out of 5 players demanding a nerf to the top class-- which, frankly, is what we've seen repeatedly since unranked PvP was introduced and just about every time the level cap went up and new powers/talents were introduced.

Just doing a drive-by on a discussion thread yelling, "Ban this!" isn't a rational or reasonable request, and for that matter neither is, "We must have a direct counter!" So to those of you who have made suggestions below--thank you.

We are 100% with you that we don't want to create a situation where everybody feels compelled to have the same item.

So let's look at some of the other more interesting tools in the toolbox.

It's absolutely possible to change the powers on the Warriors-- even better, we can duplicate their powers, with one set for PvE and another set that is balance for PvP.

So what do you think?

1) Remove Charge and Levi Call.
2) Remove only Charge.
3) Remove only Levi Call.
4) Place a "chance to draw" on either or both Charge and Levi Call.

"Chance to draw" means that sometimes (say, 50%) the Warrior may or may not have the power at the start of the battle.

5) Something else?

Side note: I'd also like to (eventually) introduce a power that messes with summons (probably for Privateers, since messin' with crews is their schtick).
In my opinion, they could be more defensive, so I think it should just be the charge removed for PvP. Optimistically, we can have access to their charges for PvE . If I might add, (might be biased because I am a buccaneer main) I recommend Hold the line 1/0 for them, as at the moment they make it rather difficult for most s to be able to rush their opponents(unless of course, that is their design to do so), which is what most buccaneers eventually do. We will probably adapt, but being able to go for offensive plays early would be a nice option for buccaneers.

To the side note: That would be cool, but wouldn't WitchDoctor's also qualify for that kind of power. They already mess with the opponents crew quite a bit so ...

Having it class only would be cool, but eventually have a drop that grants said power? That way, there is a fair option for every class.

Just my thoughts

Developer
This is what I propose:

1) Levi Call cannot be activated until the Warrior drops below 75% health. This should prevent them all from spamming Levi on turn 1; in fact, once they are out in the mix of combat, the AI very well may prioritize other actions over LC anyway. (I would still be careful with Hide, though, because if they have a better option than wandering off, they'll use it...)

2) Vicious Charge has only a 50% chance (for each Warrior) of appearing in its deck when summoned. This would apply to all 9 warriors individually, so there's still a good chance you'll see about half of them charging.

Note that these changes would apply to PvP only (enabled by giving the Warriors a "PvP only" copy of each power that bears the listed restrictions, while in PvE they retain all of their former powers.)

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
This is what I propose:

1) Levi Call cannot be activated until the Warrior drops below 75% health. This should prevent them all from spamming Levi on turn 1; in fact, once they are out in the mix of combat, the AI very well may prioritize other actions over LC anyway. (I would still be careful with Hide, though, because if they have a better option than wandering off, they'll use it...)

2) Vicious Charge has only a 50% chance (for each Warrior) of appearing in its deck when summoned. This would apply to all 9 warriors individually, so there's still a good chance you'll see about half of them charging.

Note that these changes would apply to PvP only (enabled by giving the Warriors a "PvP only" copy of each power that bears the listed restrictions, while in PvE they retain all of their former powers.)
1) This is great! I personally think this is the main problem with the warriors right now. When they all have Levy it becomes quite difficult to kill them. Great solution without fully removing their ability to Levy later in the game.

2) While this is a good solution, I don't think it will change anything in regards to their Vicious Charge. Since -50% accuracy debuffs no longer stack, currently more often than not I would say 6 or so of the warriors waste their Vicious Charge on an unit that already was reduced. Doing this change will just add unnecessary RNG without fully solving the problem, since all I really need is 2 warriors to use their Vicious on two different targets, I couldn't care less whether the other 7 have Vicious or not. So now is a huge luck factor, either you get a lot of warriors with vicious and is the same thing as it currently is on live, OR you get 2-3 warriors with Vicious and still have at least one enemy unit being reduced.

May I instead recommend a different solution rather than number 2? The big problem with the Warriors is that they are both a great offensive tool (Vicious Charge + explosions) and a great defensive tool (hold the line + vicious charge). One of those tools need to be removed completely. Either the vicious charge are removed and the Warriors become more of a defensive tool to block opponent's movements with hold the line, OR hold the line is removed allowing the enemy to move around to safety or to attack even when they are reduced.

I personally like the idea of removing the hold the line completely from their talent pool. It makes it really difficult to move around the board when you have 9 warriors all with hold the line 3 and the smaller board.

Developer
Alex, changing the fundamental role or function of an established item would fall outside the scope.

Vicious Charge isn't *just* about the accuracy reduction, it's also a guaranteed hit, and it's also a lot of movement.

Having (roughly) half of the warriors leap out in front of the fight without the rest of their crew is a relevant difference. (Dividing your forces is not a good idea, as Admiral Nelson could tell you.)

I'm not saying it's necessarily the right change, but I am saying that it has repercussions beyond merely how many opponents the warriors stack debuffs on.

Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
getting rid of vicious on them completely in pvp still leaves them a formidable threat with levy and hold the line 3 and that annoying explosion, if you make it random then people will complain about not getting it, nerfing the pvp aspect of the robe this way is the best way to get rid of complaints

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
This is what I propose:

1) Levi Call cannot be activated until the Warrior drops below 75% health. This should prevent them all from spamming Levi on turn 1; in fact, once they are out in the mix of combat, the AI very well may prioritize other actions over LC anyway. (I would still be careful with Hide, though, because if they have a better option than wandering off, they'll use it...)

2) Vicious Charge has only a 50% chance (for each Warrior) of appearing in its deck when summoned. This would apply to all 9 warriors individually, so there's still a good chance you'll see about half of them charging.

Note that these changes would apply to PvP only (enabled by giving the Warriors a "PvP only" copy of each power that bears the listed restrictions, while in PvE they retain all of their former powers.)
That's great! 50/50 is a good thing for both sides however as it stands the warriors are impossible to engage on with melee companions since the hold the line 3 dodge reduction is quite major especially since it constrains your movements especially if your In a cornered box scenario which happens to me all the time since you can't move your musket unit away from approaching opponent companions cause of their ability to restrain via , hold the line and cheap shot

Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Sunny Wolf on Aug 5, 2015 wrote:
Why was the moo Manchu robe not banned but the hat and boots were? In my opinion the robe was far stronger than those two giving you 9 units with brutal charge and self destruct damage afterwards not to mention if they are summoned first turn and they use call its too much advantage from 1 power and it uses up so much resource
Lol. I would rather face the Moo Robe than the Nefarious Staff and Beast Banner any day.

Ensign
Jan 21, 2013
11
So will the change be coming soon? But if you're not going to change terror cotta, can you at least make it easier to get? The drop rate for moo robe seems to be very low becuase I have spent a lot of time in that dungeon and have burned though a lot of crowns and still haven't gotten it. It's very frustrating losing to someone with terror cotta because of their levy and accuracy debuff. And are the accuracy debuffs supposed to be piling up on my companions? Becuase my Bonnie got hit with almost all of the terror cotta in a PvP match and she had one accuracy debuff active and the others on a timer but were not active, does that mean when the first accuracy debuff runs out, the next one will go active? Because that would be very annoying if one companion got hit with almost all of them and having numerous accuracy debuffs on them.

Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
Alex, changing the fundamental role or function of an established item would fall outside the scope.

Vicious Charge isn't *just* about the accuracy reduction, it's also a guaranteed hit, and it's also a lot of movement.

Having (roughly) half of the warriors leap out in front of the fight without the rest of their crew is a relevant difference. (Dividing your forces is not a good idea, as Admiral Nelson could tell you.)

I'm not saying it's necessarily the right change, but I am saying that it has repercussions beyond merely how many opponents the warriors stack debuffs on.
Fair enough. A lot of what is said here is of course just theory-crafting, so perhaps you are correct and the random chance you suggested will do the trick. While I personally think it wouldn't change anything, anything can happen in a practical setting.

I know some developers don't like reverting changes once they go live (looking at you Riot Games), but you have proved to not mind doing that at least based on test and the defense stacking change. You realized it wasn't working, and changed it back. I would say roll out your suggestion with the random chance and see how it works out, and if it doesn't don't be afraid to roll it back and change something else.

Developer
Pumpkin Head on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
So will the change be coming soon? But if you're not going to change terror cotta, can you at least make it easier to get? The drop rate for moo robe seems to be very low becuase I have spent a lot of time in that dungeon and have burned though a lot of crowns and still haven't gotten it. It's very frustrating losing to someone with terror cotta because of their levy and accuracy debuff. And are the accuracy debuffs supposed to be piling up on my companions? Becuase my Bonnie got hit with almost all of the terror cotta in a PvP match and she had one accuracy debuff active and the others on a timer but were not active, does that mean when the first accuracy debuff runs out, the next one will go active? Because that would be very annoying if one companion got hit with almost all of them and having numerous accuracy debuffs on them.
And are the accuracy debuffs supposed to be piling up on my companions? Becuase my Bonnie got hit with almost all of the terror cotta in a PvP match and she had one accuracy debuff active and the others on a timer but were not active, does that mean when the first accuracy debuff runs out, the next one will go active?

They should all appear in your display, but all their clocks are ticking at the same time. When the "active" buff or debuff wears off, the next one will activate-- IF it has any duration remaining.

The "active" buff or debuff should be the one with the largest numeric impact-- it will always jump to the top of the "active" list.

Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
I just faced 2 people with it today and to my dismay they were criting a lot on my ratbeard with 4x strength not only that they had no buffs on them and ratbeard had juju buff on him how high is their base strength that 4 of the warriors were able to critical hit him? 3 on one turn and one the following

Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Ratbeard on Aug 6, 2015 wrote:
This is what I propose:

1) Levi Call cannot be activated until the Warrior drops below 75% health. This should prevent them all from spamming Levi on turn 1; in fact, once they are out in the mix of combat, the AI very well may prioritize other actions over LC anyway. (I would still be careful with Hide, though, because if they have a better option than wandering off, they'll use it...)

2) Vicious Charge has only a 50% chance (for each Warrior) of appearing in its deck when summoned. This would apply to all 9 warriors individually, so there's still a good chance you'll see about half of them charging.

Note that these changes would apply to PvP only (enabled by giving the Warriors a "PvP only" copy of each power that bears the listed restrictions, while in PvE they retain all of their former powers.)
One of the biggest problems w/ the summons imo is that they apply so much pressure the turn after they are summoned due to viscous charge. They instantly reach your opponent's side of the field severely constraining their movement options while also neutering a significant portion of the team's offensive options. The change i prefer is this:

1)75% and less health Levi only.

2)Replace viscous charge w/ bucaneer's smash. This changes the warriors x2 movement to x1 w/o removing the utility of their accuracy deduction moves. They also make up for the loss of movement utility by gaining agility reducing utility.

By giving the warriors an x1 rather than x2 charge you allow the opponent more of a chance to prepare their team for the oncoming onslaught or to damage the warriors before they manage to get in range.

Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
I think it would be better to just get rid of the charge, or maybe give them a close range accuracy reduction move like egg shen and ratbeard have. I find the warriors to be useful for defensive purposes with hold the line and to fill up space, so if half of them (on average) went to the other side of the board with a charge, it would almost negate their defensive role.